Wilson Wall jump

DC
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8/28/2017 9:35pm
I really don't understand why you're acting like every rider is FORCED to jump it. Not one guy is FORCED to go and jump that wall. Deano did it because he's ballsy, does one man's ballsy-ness have the ability to influence your decisions?

They will try it, and while Dean and most would make it every time, others would fail, and the penalty for them is not worth the benefit to you as a fan just watching. I'm sorry, but again, I chose to prevent putting them in a bad position to have to jump something so risky that it wasn't worth the price of one bad crash. Because the effects of such a crash would not be worth the risk for the rider, let alone your entertainment.

DC
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DC
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8/28/2017 9:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/28/2017 10:03pm
MotX85 wrote, "But I still ride, so I got you there."

Um, I still ride too, just don't have time to race in the summer... but I would be glad to meet you now, anytime, anywhere, and you can show me how wrong it is that I base my safety decisions on real track knowledge. Please let me know which track you would like to lead me around.

And "I'm over the little mound of dirt in front of the 20 ft double so I'm not even gonna post on that again, but I will say that if I just got bitch slapped, you hit like a girl, lol"

I didn't say anything about a bitch slap. No matter, let's check on that anyway after the riding, if you need to measure my prowess in the sweet science, along with riding dirt bikes and understanding track design.

DC
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ruy
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8/28/2017 10:00pm
DC your position is not easy, whatever you do will never make everyone happy, Thanks for your answers.
Ti
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8/28/2017 10:27pm
DC thank you and your family for caring about Motocross as much as you do.... As for track design and safety... I would trust your decisions 100% of the time, every time, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!! You have EARNED that status!
Thanks again.... See you at the races

The Shop

KurtJ99
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8/28/2017 10:42pm
Even Deano clipped that jump. It was exciting but I know their would have been a wicked crash. Yes - nobody has to jump it - but this is a pro race and the riders will take a risk despite the likelihood of an injury crash. You have to apply judgement if you are responsible for the track safety. Although I am glad DC has a rider safety committee, I'm in total agreement that unilateral action should be taken immediately when appropriate. It would be irresponsible to wait to gather the riders if imminent hazards exist like that wall jump.


Rockinar
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8/28/2017 11:43pm
That dude is only good for 10th place. Crazy. The rest of us mortals would end up in the ER for 6 months for even attempting that.
mx317
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8/29/2017 5:24am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2017 6:11am
I've had a little fun in this thread, but taking the jump out was the right decision. Here is why I think so. As a former AMA referee and promoter, I had to go through risk management training. In that training they tell you if you remove an obstacle after someone gets hurt you open yourself up to liability. The judge would ask why you removed it and you would have to answer that it was unsafe which would lose your case. Good decision on removing it BEFORE something happened.
kkawboy14
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8/29/2017 5:28am
Rockinar wrote:
That dude is only good for 10th place. Crazy. The rest of us mortals would end up in the ER for 6 months for even attempting...
That dude is only good for 10th place. Crazy. The rest of us mortals would end up in the ER for 6 months for even attempting that.
I thought he was now a podium guy?
ab5772
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8/29/2017 8:04am
I thought tweaks/changes/adjustments were made to tracks during press day at almost every round of mx and sx. Sometimes it even happens after a practice session if something is deemed unsafe. It was definitely cool to see the video of Dean doing it, but it really isn't a big deal (or unusual) for an obstacle to be changed. This argument seems weird to me.
51xc
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8/29/2017 11:51am
I think it was ok to take it out simply because of the speed those guys have. it always depends on the situation. if you made it a rule to remove new scetchy jumps/combos etc then everytime the guys hit a quad in sx it should be removed but it won't because the speed, landing and dirt that's different to situations like the one this week.
kkawboy14
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8/29/2017 12:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2017 12:49pm
DC wrote:
I really don't understand why you're acting like every rider is FORCED to jump it. Not one guy is FORCED to go and jump that wall...
I really don't understand why you're acting like every rider is FORCED to jump it. Not one guy is FORCED to go and jump that wall. Deano did it because he's ballsy, does one man's ballsy-ness have the ability to influence your decisions?

They will try it, and while Dean and most would make it every time, others would fail, and the penalty for them is not worth the benefit to you as a fan just watching. I'm sorry, but again, I chose to prevent putting them in a bad position to have to jump something so risky that it wasn't worth the price of one bad crash. Because the effects of such a crash would not be worth the risk for the rider, let alone your entertainment.

DC
Racer X
They are going off the idea that if your getting pulled 2 or 3 seconds a lap off of 1 jump, then they would be forced to jump it.

I can understand that reasoning
8/29/2017 12:38pm
What a weird decision and a weird conversation.

Practically every week the riders are 'forced' to go flying through sections with 2 foot deep, hard edged ruts and some guys can float over them going a million miles an hour, while some guys struggle to just get through them and can't carry the speed through them that others can. In many cases, lots of riders are losing lots of time to the guys who can fly through those ruts. That would supposedly 'FORCE' them to go through those sections just as fast as the guys who are flying through them. Yet, crashing in those ruts can be horrible - as evidenced by Tomac's double shoulder screw up crash as well as countless crashes by many riders over the years. High-siding, cross-rutting and high-speed cross-rutted kickers can be unbelievably dangerous. But if there are some obstacles labeled 'jumps' where a guy strings a few together in a creative way, that is seen as too dangerous. So we trust the riders to know their limits when it comes to ruts, braking bumps, kickers, g-outs and whoops etc and stay within their limits - even when losing time, but when it comes to "Jumps" we assume they have no knowledge of their own limitations and will mindlessly follow the leader because it's costing them half a second a lap. Makes no sense at all.
DC
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8/29/2017 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2017 1:01pm
Mr. Kobby, a guy misses on a rut, he falls over. Guy misses on a big uphill double, he lands and usually bounces. Guy catches a wheel on a lip like this wall jump, he goes head-first into the next jump. That doesn't usually end well. In fact, it usually ends really badly for their head or neck or back. That doesn't belong in outdoor motocross, and neither do sharp, SX-style whoops to hammer through, or big high-speed rhythm sections. No promoter wants to have obstacles on their tracks that put the riders at such higher risk of catastrophic injury if they miss. Nothing weird about that, but it's weird that people think we ruined the race by making it just a little safer than it was with the wall jump.

Tomac's crash was a very high-speed section where he didn't need to be going as fast as he did, but he chose to keep charging despite a big lead. The promoter has been trying to slow that section down ever since.

We had two transports all weekend, one pro (ankle) and one amateur. I think that's a pretty good weekend. I only wish it were zero transports. Oh, and the fastest guys one, one coming from way behind.

We make changes all the time, sometimes at the suggestion of riders, sometimes team managers, sometimes on our own. Why this one is so controversial for Vital MX is the weird part.

DC
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8/29/2017 1:05pm
I dont see how this is an issue. The guy putting on the race can decide to change the track before the event starts regardless of what his reasoning is. I feel like im taking crazy pills.
JC21
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8/29/2017 1:05pm
Consulting the riders union about necessary track modifications could possibly help from a liability standpoint. A similar process is followed in a lot of Motorsport - F1, MotoGP etc.
ruy
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8/29/2017 2:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2017 2:20pm
I liked that the jump was good for the race, fast and where the riders passed with different styles and different paths, and without danger.
Anyway, I think Wilson maybe was not very smart, maybe after making the jump should see if others did, and if they did not, he should not do it anymore until he's in the race, I hope he learns from this.
And that is also true for other routes that a pilot makes new, you have to be a bit clever and not teach them to others until it is not necessary.
Wilson you are the man, but in the end for nothing, rather to create a controversy here Smile I hope that Wilson feels guilty, because he would not have taught the trick and create controversy here. Lol
ruy
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8/29/2017 2:28pm
DC wrote:
Mr. Kobby, a guy misses on a rut, he falls over. Guy misses on a big uphill double, he lands and usually bounces. Guy catches a...
Mr. Kobby, a guy misses on a rut, he falls over. Guy misses on a big uphill double, he lands and usually bounces. Guy catches a wheel on a lip like this wall jump, he goes head-first into the next jump. That doesn't usually end well. In fact, it usually ends really badly for their head or neck or back. That doesn't belong in outdoor motocross, and neither do sharp, SX-style whoops to hammer through, or big high-speed rhythm sections. No promoter wants to have obstacles on their tracks that put the riders at such higher risk of catastrophic injury if they miss. Nothing weird about that, but it's weird that people think we ruined the race by making it just a little safer than it was with the wall jump.

Tomac's crash was a very high-speed section where he didn't need to be going as fast as he did, but he chose to keep charging despite a big lead. The promoter has been trying to slow that section down ever since.

We had two transports all weekend, one pro (ankle) and one amateur. I think that's a pretty good weekend. I only wish it were zero transports. Oh, and the fastest guys one, one coming from way behind.

We make changes all the time, sometimes at the suggestion of riders, sometimes team managers, sometimes on our own. Why this one is so controversial for Vital MX is the weird part.

DC
Racer X
The controversial is for;
People like these things that the riders are invented, they are out of the ordinary, and if the authority then removes it and is not allowed to continue doing it, it is like that authority comes to annoy the party. And then they protest.
MotoX85
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8/29/2017 6:57pm
DC wrote:
MotX85 wrote, "But I still ride, so I got you there." Um, I still ride too, just don't have time to race in the summer... but...
MotX85 wrote, "But I still ride, so I got you there."

Um, I still ride too, just don't have time to race in the summer... but I would be glad to meet you now, anytime, anywhere, and you can show me how wrong it is that I base my safety decisions on real track knowledge. Please let me know which track you would like to lead me around.

And "I'm over the little mound of dirt in front of the 20 ft double so I'm not even gonna post on that again, but I will say that if I just got bitch slapped, you hit like a girl, lol"

I didn't say anything about a bitch slap. No matter, let's check on that anyway after the riding, if you need to measure my prowess in the sweet science, along with riding dirt bikes and understanding track design.

DC
Racer X
Little testy in this post

First, never said I could beat you, but I am always up for a challenge. Nor did I say that my expert riding ability let me make a decision that you couldn't. I said it was a bad call AFTER someone already hit it. I agreed it should have never been built that way, but once on the track and someone should initiative, it should have been left alone.

Also it was the exact same at the regional, you said it wasn't but you also said you weren't there. Well I was at both and it was exactly the same at the regional and was deemed perfectly safe for the amateurs.

As for the bitch slap comment, another poster had said that "Davey just bitched slapped motox85" and that comment was a rebutle to that.

Now your last comment is perplexing, as if your riding prowess will be the upcoming "bitch slap" Again, never claimed to be faster but I guarantee you will not blow by me to the effect equal to a bitch slap, I may be almost 50 but I still have some skills.

disbanded
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8/29/2017 8:52pm
MotoX85 wrote:
Little testy in this post First, never said I could beat you, but I am always up for a challenge. Nor did I say that my...
Little testy in this post

First, never said I could beat you, but I am always up for a challenge. Nor did I say that my expert riding ability let me make a decision that you couldn't. I said it was a bad call AFTER someone already hit it. I agreed it should have never been built that way, but once on the track and someone should initiative, it should have been left alone.

Also it was the exact same at the regional, you said it wasn't but you also said you weren't there. Well I was at both and it was exactly the same at the regional and was deemed perfectly safe for the amateurs.

As for the bitch slap comment, another poster had said that "Davey just bitched slapped motox85" and that comment was a rebutle to that.

Now your last comment is perplexing, as if your riding prowess will be the upcoming "bitch slap" Again, never claimed to be faster but I guarantee you will not blow by me to the effect equal to a bitch slap, I may be almost 50 but I still have some skills.

Like you said a page ago...Let's move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DC
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8/29/2017 10:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/29/2017 10:13pm
MotoX85, I'm not sure what it is you don't understand: I still ride, I don't hit like a girl, the track was changed THAT MORNING by our track architect, it wasn't the same at the regional. And I din't want Dean or your kid or anyone else to leave in an ambulance for an obstacle that was not build in a way to suit 160 pros and 600 amateurs. It was different for press day, and since the competition had not started, we all deserve the right to suggest a change on behalf of safety. I suggested the change, they agreed, and no one lost... Except people who don't understand how proactive track changes work, and changes have been happening since long before I raised my voice.

I will again change the track the next time I see something that I deem in need of change, just as I did at Loretta Lynn's and High Point, but those didn't seem to bother you. How that makes me a poor leader in your mind, I will never understand, nor will your doubt in how approach moto in general change anything in how I approach my thinking. I changed a track that I felt responsible for. What did that have to do with you other than denying you an easy chance to see big crashes?

And as for your skills, I could care less how fast you think you were, but you are the one who implied that I don't race anymore, as an insult to my ability to make the right call, and I'm telling you that's a funny critique and I would be glad to show you my skills for half a lap or so, however long you are still there. And I would never bitch slap you. Never.

DC
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8/29/2017 11:55pm
Personally, I think Davey should have put some god damn gators between those jumps and let's see how much of a man these guys are. And I don't mean John Deere gators. i mean, nobody is going drag them to jail if they don't race right?. Same track for everyone. If a guy loses an arm, well shit, it was his decision to be out there to start with.
JC21
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8/30/2017 2:15am
I wonder if Luongo gets into dick measuring arguments with randoms on message boards who are not too subtly pushing a barrow/trying to stir him up...
aeffertz
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8/30/2017 4:26am
Almost a week later and there's still an argument over a track change made on press day. Jesus...

DC, please stop feeding the troll.
ruy
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8/30/2017 7:27am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2017 7:29am
DC wrote:
MotoX85, I'm not sure what it is you don't understand: I still ride, I don't hit like a girl, the track was changed THAT MORNING by...
MotoX85, I'm not sure what it is you don't understand: I still ride, I don't hit like a girl, the track was changed THAT MORNING by our track architect, it wasn't the same at the regional. And I din't want Dean or your kid or anyone else to leave in an ambulance for an obstacle that was not build in a way to suit 160 pros and 600 amateurs. It was different for press day, and since the competition had not started, we all deserve the right to suggest a change on behalf of safety. I suggested the change, they agreed, and no one lost... Except people who don't understand how proactive track changes work, and changes have been happening since long before I raised my voice.

I will again change the track the next time I see something that I deem in need of change, just as I did at Loretta Lynn's and High Point, but those didn't seem to bother you. How that makes me a poor leader in your mind, I will never understand, nor will your doubt in how approach moto in general change anything in how I approach my thinking. I changed a track that I felt responsible for. What did that have to do with you other than denying you an easy chance to see big crashes?

And as for your skills, I could care less how fast you think you were, but you are the one who implied that I don't race anymore, as an insult to my ability to make the right call, and I'm telling you that's a funny critique and I would be glad to show you my skills for half a lap or so, however long you are still there. And I would never bitch slap you. Never.

DC
Raver X


If you changed this ugly double in High Point, congratulations, it was very dangerous. I was write time ago for to change this jump, but I don't remember where, but when this year the jump is not there, I think that is very good.
jnickell
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8/30/2017 8:21am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2017 8:22am
To simplify this argument. It's all about the penalty.

If these guys lose traction and come up short on the big giant jumps at Glen Helen or Hangtown, they may nard themselves and probably ride it out. Even if they really screw up the penalty isn't that severe.

I think the reason DC decided to "Tear Down That Wall" was because a very minor error could cause a very extreme penalty. Minor errors occur all day but the penalty generally aligns with the severity of the error. Not in this case.
aroark247
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8/30/2017 8:56am
DC wrote:
MotoX85, I'm not sure what it is you don't understand: I still ride, I don't hit like a girl, the track was changed THAT MORNING by...
MotoX85, I'm not sure what it is you don't understand: I still ride, I don't hit like a girl, the track was changed THAT MORNING by our track architect, it wasn't the same at the regional. And I din't want Dean or your kid or anyone else to leave in an ambulance for an obstacle that was not build in a way to suit 160 pros and 600 amateurs. It was different for press day, and since the competition had not started, we all deserve the right to suggest a change on behalf of safety. I suggested the change, they agreed, and no one lost... Except people who don't understand how proactive track changes work, and changes have been happening since long before I raised my voice.

I will again change the track the next time I see something that I deem in need of change, just as I did at Loretta Lynn's and High Point, but those didn't seem to bother you. How that makes me a poor leader in your mind, I will never understand, nor will your doubt in how approach moto in general change anything in how I approach my thinking. I changed a track that I felt responsible for. What did that have to do with you other than denying you an easy chance to see big crashes?

And as for your skills, I could care less how fast you think you were, but you are the one who implied that I don't race anymore, as an insult to my ability to make the right call, and I'm telling you that's a funny critique and I would be glad to show you my skills for half a lap or so, however long you are still there. And I would never bitch slap you. Never.

DC
Raver X
DC I have so much respect for you as an ambassador. But, I believe this thread is no longer worth the headache. haha

Keep doing what you do, and thanks for giving us vital members one on one responses from someone who literally runs a huge chunk of our sport.
Paul333
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8/30/2017 9:15am
Wow, thats damn incredible.
MXVet261
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8/30/2017 9:32am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2017 9:34am
DC, thanks for making the call to change that.
I was at Ironman Saturday watching and also raced on Sunday in the Vet classes.

Two thoughts went through my head when I saw the video of Dean hopping that:
1) someone is going to get hurt bad
2) I might get hurt bad on Sunday because I will have arm pump and somehow whiskey throttle into that thing!

BTW Ironman is one of the most fun tracks I've ever raced on. Looking forward to doing it again.

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