Why no unified sactioning for local races?

Phillip_Lamb
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In BMX and other sports like Little League, all organizations and events fall under one sactioning body. All events have the same rules, and there is a national tracking system.

When i raced BMX asa a kid they had a system in place that tracked all you races adnd if you won enough races or had enough top 3 finishes you would get bumped up a skill level. It was effective at preventing sandbagging, there was a national numbering system.

With all the talk of sandbagging in moto, and the differences in rules, how comes more tracks and promoter dont use AMA sanctioning?
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rrjr
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3/22/2017 12:54am
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands?

Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls itself now. In fact the sandbaggers chasing a National Championship Title in the beginner class is killing the local racing scene. Can't have little Johnny using up his wins towards advancement at a local race. Even when the local hotshot beginner does race it's always comical how he somehow slips a pedal or hits the gate in the main so he doesn't win.

AMA is more prevalent in the Eastern US. Not so much out here in the West. Unless it a qualifier for Lorretta's or Mammoth. The AMA does nothing to stop sandbagging. They have an advancement policy in place using points earned during a racing season. It's a joke. There's C class riders who live at training facilities. They pick which races they want to race in advancement classes, usually the bigger amateur Nationals. When they get close to being moved up they switch to non advancement classes.

I'm not hating on the players. They're not breaking any rules. I wish I would've paid a little more attention to how the game is played when my Son started racing. I always figured it was best to advance in classes as quick as possible.
rhargrave431
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3/22/2017 7:42am
If anything, id like to see a nationwide set of classes. Everywhere you go, its more skill, (80a, b, c etc) but once you get to Loretta Lynns, it's all age based. In Keefers Loretta Article on Dirt Rider, he kinda talks about it.
hvaughn88
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3/22/2017 7:46am
rrjr wrote:
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands? Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls...
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands?

Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls itself now. In fact the sandbaggers chasing a National Championship Title in the beginner class is killing the local racing scene. Can't have little Johnny using up his wins towards advancement at a local race. Even when the local hotshot beginner does race it's always comical how he somehow slips a pedal or hits the gate in the main so he doesn't win.

AMA is more prevalent in the Eastern US. Not so much out here in the West. Unless it a qualifier for Lorretta's or Mammoth. The AMA does nothing to stop sandbagging. They have an advancement policy in place using points earned during a racing season. It's a joke. There's C class riders who live at training facilities. They pick which races they want to race in advancement classes, usually the bigger amateur Nationals. When they get close to being moved up they switch to non advancement classes.

I'm not hating on the players. They're not breaking any rules. I wish I would've paid a little more attention to how the game is played when my Son started racing. I always figured it was best to advance in classes as quick as possible.
Yup, you are absolutely correct about BMX. My sons and I started racing this past year and have had multiple people casually make the comment about "don't use up all those wins" or "don't mistime when you move up for grands" etc. It kinda shocks me. I'm trying to move up as quickly as possible.
Dtat720
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3/22/2017 8:07am
Do like I do, i give congrats to sandbaggers before they cross the finish line and send in their advancement papers to usabmx on monday. Did it to 2 kids last weekend. Parents tried to dispute it, they were denied. Hope they enjoy the expert class....

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rrjr
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3/22/2017 8:48pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Do like I do, i give congrats to sandbaggers before they cross the finish line and send in their advancement papers to usabmx on monday. Did...
Do like I do, i give congrats to sandbaggers before they cross the finish line and send in their advancement papers to usabmx on monday. Did it to 2 kids last weekend. Parents tried to dispute it, they were denied. Hope they enjoy the expert class....
You're a rare breed in the world of track operators. Not many would anger his customers to do what's right.
Well done Sir. Cool

The real problem is with USA BMX. They want to maximize cash flow which I understand. They're a business and that's what businesses are supposed to do. Their business model seems to be more classes means more racers which means more money. Having a National Championship for the beginner class is crazy. Allowing anyone to race a National Event without having to qualify is also not good for local racing. They should follow the lead of how the World Championships are ran. Age classes only, no skill levels. That forces riders to hone their skills at the local level instead of striving to be the USA BMX National Beginner Class Champion. Since USA BMX is the only game in town since they took over the NBL any rule change is not likely to happen.
EddieC
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3/22/2017 9:51pm
Along the same lines why not a true amateur national series similar to the Pro MX national series? Have races spread out around the country with lets say the riders best 5-10 finishes counting towards a national title. The championship race could be held at a different track every 2-3 years. How did Loretta's become the stand alone race that determines a riders future in the sport?

Part of a riders success in this sport is consistency throughout the season and the way amateur racing is set up currently doesn't allow for this.

Have a percentage of each entry fee be allocated to supporting the Amateur MXD team.


MotoX85
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3/22/2017 10:05pm
rrjr wrote:
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands? Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls...
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands?

Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls itself now. In fact the sandbaggers chasing a National Championship Title in the beginner class is killing the local racing scene. Can't have little Johnny using up his wins towards advancement at a local race. Even when the local hotshot beginner does race it's always comical how he somehow slips a pedal or hits the gate in the main so he doesn't win.

AMA is more prevalent in the Eastern US. Not so much out here in the West. Unless it a qualifier for Lorretta's or Mammoth. The AMA does nothing to stop sandbagging. They have an advancement policy in place using points earned during a racing season. It's a joke. There's C class riders who live at training facilities. They pick which races they want to race in advancement classes, usually the bigger amateur Nationals. When they get close to being moved up they switch to non advancement classes.

I'm not hating on the players. They're not breaking any rules. I wish I would've paid a little more attention to how the game is played when my Son started racing. I always figured it was best to advance in classes as quick as possible.
Nice to read an educated post for a change. I would add that there are not many "non" advancement classes anymore for a C level rider. Now they show up to races and get low scores at local races to add to the total for the nationals they hit to keep their RPV down.
mingham97
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3/22/2017 10:32pm Edited Date/Time 3/22/2017 10:33pm
There is official sanctioning in Australia and it's shit . It's expensive and one shitty rule applies to all tracks and it's just a shit show. Just enjoy your "$30 to ride" system while you've still got it
rrjr
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3/23/2017 9:00pm
EddieC wrote:
Along the same lines why not a true amateur national series similar to the Pro MX national series? Have races spread out around the country with...
Along the same lines why not a true amateur national series similar to the Pro MX national series? Have races spread out around the country with lets say the riders best 5-10 finishes counting towards a national title. The championship race could be held at a different track every 2-3 years. How did Loretta's become the stand alone race that determines a riders future in the sport?

Part of a riders success in this sport is consistency throughout the season and the way amateur racing is set up currently doesn't allow for this.

Have a percentage of each entry fee be allocated to supporting the Amateur MXD team.


How did Loretta's become the stand alone race that determines a riders future in the sport?

Look at who the promoters are for Loretta's and the Pro Mx national series and you'll have your answer.
OW38B
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3/23/2017 9:06pm
In BMX and other sports like Little League, all organizations and events fall under one sactioning body. All events have the same rules, and there is...
In BMX and other sports like Little League, all organizations and events fall under one sactioning body. All events have the same rules, and there is a national tracking system.

When i raced BMX asa a kid they had a system in place that tracked all you races adnd if you won enough races or had enough top 3 finishes you would get bumped up a skill level. It was effective at preventing sandbagging, there was a national numbering system.

With all the talk of sandbagging in moto, and the differences in rules, how comes more tracks and promoter dont use AMA sanctioning?
Holy Smokes! I would give up racing MX if I had to join the AMA........
hvaughn88
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3/23/2017 9:21pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Do like I do, i give congrats to sandbaggers before they cross the finish line and send in their advancement papers to usabmx on monday. Did...
Do like I do, i give congrats to sandbaggers before they cross the finish line and send in their advancement papers to usabmx on monday. Did it to 2 kids last weekend. Parents tried to dispute it, they were denied. Hope they enjoy the expert class....
rrjr wrote:
You're a rare breed in the world of track operators. Not many would anger his customers to do what's right. Well done Sir. B) The real...
You're a rare breed in the world of track operators. Not many would anger his customers to do what's right.
Well done Sir. Cool

The real problem is with USA BMX. They want to maximize cash flow which I understand. They're a business and that's what businesses are supposed to do. Their business model seems to be more classes means more racers which means more money. Having a National Championship for the beginner class is crazy. Allowing anyone to race a National Event without having to qualify is also not good for local racing. They should follow the lead of how the World Championships are ran. Age classes only, no skill levels. That forces riders to hone their skills at the local level instead of striving to be the USA BMX National Beginner Class Champion. Since USA BMX is the only game in town since they took over the NBL any rule change is not likely to happen.
I really like that idea for BMX. That would help local tracks and make going to a national mean something, all at the same time.
rrjr
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3/23/2017 9:24pm
OW38B wrote:
Holy Smokes! I would give up racing MX if I had to join the AMA........
Actually the AMA as an advocate for motorcycle rights/legislation is a good thing. The AMA as a sanctioning body could be better.

Even if you don't race any AMA sanctioned events, being an AMA member has it's advantages. Good discounts on goods and services. The roadside assistance is reason enough to join. Use it one time and it pays for the cost of membership. All vehicles in the home of the member are covered whether they're registered to the member or not.
OW38B
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3/23/2017 10:20pm
OW38B wrote:
Holy Smokes! I would give up racing MX if I had to join the AMA........
rrjr wrote:
Actually the AMA as an advocate for motorcycle rights/legislation is a good thing. The AMA as a sanctioning body could be better. Even if you don't...
Actually the AMA as an advocate for motorcycle rights/legislation is a good thing. The AMA as a sanctioning body could be better.

Even if you don't race any AMA sanctioned events, being an AMA member has it's advantages. Good discounts on goods and services. The roadside assistance is reason enough to join. Use it one time and it pays for the cost of membership. All vehicles in the home of the member are covered whether they're registered to the member or not.
You can believe that if you want.......The AMA just cares about "street" stuff.

I was an AMA member for about 10 years a long time ago, started spending the AMA membership money on lap dances......got way more benefit from the lap dances....true story..
feelnjstfine
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3/23/2017 10:28pm
EddieC wrote:
Along the same lines why not a true amateur national series similar to the Pro MX national series? Have races spread out around the country with...
Along the same lines why not a true amateur national series similar to the Pro MX national series? Have races spread out around the country with lets say the riders best 5-10 finishes counting towards a national title. The championship race could be held at a different track every 2-3 years. How did Loretta's become the stand alone race that determines a riders future in the sport?

Part of a riders success in this sport is consistency throughout the season and the way amateur racing is set up currently doesn't allow for this.

Have a percentage of each entry fee be allocated to supporting the Amateur MXD team.


Great idea, make it even more of a rich kid sport than it already is!
rrjr
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3/23/2017 10:38pm
OW38B wrote:
You can believe that if you want.......The AMA just cares about "street" stuff. I was an AMA member for about 10 years a long time ago...
You can believe that if you want.......The AMA just cares about "street" stuff.

I was an AMA member for about 10 years a long time ago, started spending the AMA membership money on lap dances......got way more benefit from the lap dances....true story..
I agree that the AMA is more focused towards street bikes. Nothing wrong with that since there are so many more owners of street bikes than offroad bikes. They do fight for offroad issues just as much as street bike legislation.

I'm not actually a member. My Son is a member. The only reason I signed him up was because it was required for a race he wanted to attend. He was only 14 at the time. Months after the race our trucks water pump went out. Called AMA roadside assistance and gave them his membership number. Even though he wasn't old enough to drive or own a truck no questions asked and they sent a tow truck right away. His Mother has used it for a dead battery/jumpstart and my Son wasn't even in the vehicle with her. I've renewed his membership for the last 2 years for that reason alone.
3/24/2017 3:03pm
Do any of you have a kid racing ama races? They have RPV pionts. They keep up with it and will bump you in a heart beat. 1st year in the C class you get bumped if you are over 15 pionts and 13 piont in your 2nd year. That is why so many kids just train and ride 4 to 5 races a year.
ACBraap
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3/24/2017 3:21pm
The last thing in the world that would help the sport is a single sanctioning body. Monopolies are never good for the ones paying the bills. In cycling, USAC more or less has a monopoly on sanctioning in the US outside of a few areas like OR (where OBRA kicks ass) and others were nonsanctioned events are common. USAC adds costs to the participants without adding value. I guarantee that would happen if a single agency could get enough critical mass to drown out the others in mx. Buying multiple licenses sucks, but competition between the orgs is ultimately good.

As far as sandbagging, that happens everywhere, in every sport. Realistically, you have to not let it bother you, because those kind of people will always be there.
Braap19
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3/25/2017 12:09am
In BMX and other sports like Little League, all organizations and events fall under one sactioning body. All events have the same rules, and there is...
In BMX and other sports like Little League, all organizations and events fall under one sactioning body. All events have the same rules, and there is a national tracking system.

When i raced BMX asa a kid they had a system in place that tracked all you races adnd if you won enough races or had enough top 3 finishes you would get bumped up a skill level. It was effective at preventing sandbagging, there was a national numbering system.

With all the talk of sandbagging in moto, and the differences in rules, how comes more tracks and promoter dont use AMA sanctioning?
More local tracks dont get AMA sanctioned because money. It takes a lot of money to get the track to be ama sanctioned. People often forget about that. There's certain banner rules, flagger rules, entry gate rules, entry fee set ups are different because they have to be able to run a ama card and stuff like that.

Not to mention the insurance a track has to carry which is absurdly expensive on top of what they normally carry. And then they have to have a ems bus there standing by and in some spots, that's just not reasonable.

Answer is money
rrjr
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3/25/2017 12:43am
Braap19 wrote:
More local tracks dont get AMA sanctioned because money. It takes a lot of money to get the track to be ama sanctioned. People often forget...
More local tracks dont get AMA sanctioned because money. It takes a lot of money to get the track to be ama sanctioned. People often forget about that. There's certain banner rules, flagger rules, entry gate rules, entry fee set ups are different because they have to be able to run a ama card and stuff like that.

Not to mention the insurance a track has to carry which is absurdly expensive on top of what they normally carry. And then they have to have a ems bus there standing by and in some spots, that's just not reasonable.

Answer is money
I would never let my kid race anywhere AMA or otherwise that did not have a EMT staffed ambulance onsite during the race. Even BMX National races have ambulances there.

Hell even on practice days the local tracks we ride have emt's on hand. They ride around on quads or in the case of one track a early 70's station wagon with a big red cross on the window. Cool
Braap19
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3/25/2017 7:28am
Braap19 wrote:
More local tracks dont get AMA sanctioned because money. It takes a lot of money to get the track to be ama sanctioned. People often forget...
More local tracks dont get AMA sanctioned because money. It takes a lot of money to get the track to be ama sanctioned. People often forget about that. There's certain banner rules, flagger rules, entry gate rules, entry fee set ups are different because they have to be able to run a ama card and stuff like that.

Not to mention the insurance a track has to carry which is absurdly expensive on top of what they normally carry. And then they have to have a ems bus there standing by and in some spots, that's just not reasonable.

Answer is money
rrjr wrote:
I would never let my kid race anywhere AMA or otherwise that did not have a EMT staffed ambulance onsite during the race. Even BMX National...
I would never let my kid race anywhere AMA or otherwise that did not have a EMT staffed ambulance onsite during the race. Even BMX National races have ambulances there.

Hell even on practice days the local tracks we ride have emt's on hand. They ride around on quads or in the case of one track a early 70's station wagon with a big red cross on the window. Cool
And that's probably the reason practice days are $30-60 where you're at too.
dedi684
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3/25/2017 8:17am
OW38B wrote:
Holy Smokes! I would give up racing MX if I had to join the AMA........
rrjr wrote:
Actually the AMA as an advocate for motorcycle rights/legislation is a good thing. The AMA as a sanctioning body could be better. Even if you don't...
Actually the AMA as an advocate for motorcycle rights/legislation is a good thing. The AMA as a sanctioning body could be better.

Even if you don't race any AMA sanctioned events, being an AMA member has it's advantages. Good discounts on goods and services. The roadside assistance is reason enough to join. Use it one time and it pays for the cost of membership. All vehicles in the home of the member are covered whether they're registered to the member or not.
Same here for me no ama races. I Refuse to join.
Starcrossed
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3/25/2017 8:39am
rrjr wrote:
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands? Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls...
I guess you never raced many National BMX races or the Grands?

Sandbagging is alive and well in USA BMX which is what the ABA calls itself now. In fact the sandbaggers chasing a National Championship Title in the beginner class is killing the local racing scene. Can't have little Johnny using up his wins towards advancement at a local race. Even when the local hotshot beginner does race it's always comical how he somehow slips a pedal or hits the gate in the main so he doesn't win.

AMA is more prevalent in the Eastern US. Not so much out here in the West. Unless it a qualifier for Lorretta's or Mammoth. The AMA does nothing to stop sandbagging. They have an advancement policy in place using points earned during a racing season. It's a joke. There's C class riders who live at training facilities. They pick which races they want to race in advancement classes, usually the bigger amateur Nationals. When they get close to being moved up they switch to non advancement classes.

I'm not hating on the players. They're not breaking any rules. I wish I would've paid a little more attention to how the game is played when my Son started racing. I always figured it was best to advance in classes as quick as possible.
They're not that prevalent in New England. The NESC series rules these parts, and it's not AMA affiliated.
OW38B
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3/25/2017 9:05am
OW38B wrote:
You can believe that if you want.......The AMA just cares about "street" stuff. I was an AMA member for about 10 years a long time ago...
You can believe that if you want.......The AMA just cares about "street" stuff.

I was an AMA member for about 10 years a long time ago, started spending the AMA membership money on lap dances......got way more benefit from the lap dances....true story..
rrjr wrote:
I agree that the AMA is more focused towards street bikes. Nothing wrong with that since there are so many more owners of street bikes than...
I agree that the AMA is more focused towards street bikes. Nothing wrong with that since there are so many more owners of street bikes than offroad bikes. They do fight for offroad issues just as much as street bike legislation.

I'm not actually a member. My Son is a member. The only reason I signed him up was because it was required for a race he wanted to attend. He was only 14 at the time. Months after the race our trucks water pump went out. Called AMA roadside assistance and gave them his membership number. Even though he wasn't old enough to drive or own a truck no questions asked and they sent a tow truck right away. His Mother has used it for a dead battery/jumpstart and my Son wasn't even in the vehicle with her. I've renewed his membership for the last 2 years for that reason alone.
You sure you don't have an AAA membership? LOL
KirkChandler
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3/25/2017 9:18am
The reasons are money and hassle.

In California we have never had a huge AMA presence until recent changes to Mammoth becoming an AMA race. It was CMC, GFI, CRC, CMMC, R.E.M. Memberships that everyone had. Why have an AMA card too if the only AMA race was Loretta qualifiers and you weren't going to Loretta's.

From a promoter side, at least back when I promoted races, the extra cost for the sanctioning fees, AMA specific insurance, AMA referee, and then for the riders to be/become AMA members before racing was a hinderance. So we would need to get more riders to race to cover the extra costs while making it more expensive for them to race, while getting no portion of that added dollar amount directly back to us. All of my "outlaw" races had insurance, Medics, flaggers, we ran hundreds of races over the years.

I remember when we had to get an AMA amateur sanction because we were given an Area Qualifer without asking for one after hosting a Pro National, and doing a phone call with the AMA. At this point we had already promoted our first AMA pro national, and they wanted to know remedial stuff and determine if we were capable of hosting a race with 200+ riders. Then I had to take a fairly long online seminar on race promotion and safety. Pay a promoter sanction fee, and then pay the AMA their membership fees, and if I remember correctly another percentage of entries went to them as well, or maybe I'm confusing the fee for the rider to be eligible to qualify. It's been awhile. But I remember writing a large check to the AMA the Monday after the race.

We were AMA sanctioned one year.
3/25/2017 9:37am
For local racers the AMA are just a name, the district for the area makes the rules and set up schedules for the year and makes their own rules and decides if they want to follow and obey them.
mark_swart
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3/25/2017 9:38am
Pick your poison - you can have a single sanctioning body that helps cut down on sandbagging, or everyone can do their own thing and then you have "C" riders scrubbing the 110 foot triple.

Given the size of our sport, in a perfect world that actually tracked advancement, "B" should be the biggest class. Imagine what that would be like...

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