Why no 300sx from KTM?

Markee
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Markee
They have a 300 XC, XC-W and a XC-W Six days, but no SX model. Yeah I know you can buy the $900 kit. But I'm wondering why they don't offer the set up from the factory?? Any Ideas why?

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Micahdogg
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Micahdogg 4/4/2017 2:53pm
4/4/2017 2:53pm
If they offered a factory 300sx for $900 over msrp of a 250sx, would you buy one?
Spergen
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Spergen 4/4/2017 3:00pm
4/4/2017 3:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 3:10pm
But it wouldn't be that much as they wouldn't of used the 250 jug etc. suppose you could buy a 250 and fit the 300 kit from New and eBay the 250 kit to get some cash back. More to the point but off topic where is the 200 !

Edit, as for why ? Probably wouldn't sell enough, not sure. Wouldn't be that hard for ktm to offer a speciality order would it ?
Markee
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Markee 4/4/2017 3:03pm
4/4/2017 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 3:07pm
Micahdogg wrote:
If they offered a factory 300sx for $900 over msrp of a 250sx, would you buy one?
No.

The motor is already put in production chassis, curious why not in a SX setup.

SX meaning suspension valving, ignition, 19" rear wheel, no battery/e start and smaller fuel tank. Get it now?
kott0n
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kott0n 4/4/2017 3:18pm
4/4/2017 3:18pm
If you put a 300 cyl on a 250 is it just the gearing that separates the power characteristics between a "300" sx and 300 exc?

Obviously you could tell from a frame/suspension difference between a SX and EXC, but the motor? I know the exc has longer gears so curious how that translates to a 250SX bottom end with a 300 cyl on it.

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agn5009
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agn5009 4/4/2017 3:26pm
4/4/2017 3:26pm
For what purpose? How many people would actually purchase and race a 300sx?
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kott0n 4/4/2017 3:29pm
4/4/2017 3:29pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 3:30pm
Wouldn't it be more competitive with the highe low end torque?
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WVUpetro2013 4/4/2017 3:34pm
4/4/2017 3:34pm
kott0n wrote:
If you put a 300 cyl on a 250 is it just the gearing that separates the power characteristics between a "300" sx and 300 exc...
If you put a 300 cyl on a 250 is it just the gearing that separates the power characteristics between a "300" sx and 300 exc?

Obviously you could tell from a frame/suspension difference between a SX and EXC, but the motor? I know the exc has longer gears so curious how that translates to a 250SX bottom end with a 300 cyl on it.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure the power characteristics wouldn't be as similar as one would thing. The reason being is I believe it would come with a more aggressive sx ignition, and a higher compression head. Again though that is what I was lead to believe.
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ML512 4/4/2017 3:35pm
4/4/2017 3:35pm
Simple, sales...or lack there of.

KTM as we've seen is willing to produce almost anything if they can get some decent volume from it. If they're not making it, it means they don't think they can sell enough to make it worth their time.

To put it simply, KTM sells three times as many 450 XC-Fs as they do 450 SX-Fs in the US.

So with this simple tell tale, we can figure that off-road models are selling better for KTM.

So yes, KTM produces a 300XC as it's has a home in that market and sells well enough to make money. We can also figure that the total number of 300XCs sold is less than the number of 450 XC-Fs sold. A 300SX doesn't really have a home so it's sales could be figured to be less than the third that is the difference in the 450 models.

Now there is small interest so KTM produces a 300 SX Kit. There is more markup in a kit than a complete bike, so it helps cover the R&D costs a bit more. Secondly, if KTM say orders 200 of these kits and only sells 70 of these kits the first year, it can still slowly move the remaining kits over the next few years without lowering the cost. If KTM brings 200 units of a completed 300 SX bike and only sells 100 of those units, then they or their dealers have to blow those bikes out and maybe have to put a program together for cash back and other markdowns. Then the following year, they lower the quantity of that model they bring in...which means less profit. Also, as you mentioned you wouldn't be willing to buy a complete model for $900 more and even though the 300 kit if it came on the bike would replace some parts, we can figure that they will still have to have a low enough MSRP on the bike that it actually makes less profit than the kit.
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peelout 4/4/2017 3:42pm
4/4/2017 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 3:43pm
not sure how to answer the question other than KTM obviously knows where the most consumer money is, and that is offroad.

was in Moab this weekend for 3 days, i shit you not 8 out of 10 bikes i saw were offroad 2-strokes, KTM and Husky. i'm sure quite a bit were rentals, but most i saw were personally owned machines. it was a very very busy weekend.
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kiwifan 4/4/2017 3:44pm
4/4/2017 3:44pm
ML512 wrote:
Simple, sales...or lack there of. KTM as we've seen is willing to produce almost anything if they can get some decent volume from it. If they're...
Simple, sales...or lack there of.

KTM as we've seen is willing to produce almost anything if they can get some decent volume from it. If they're not making it, it means they don't think they can sell enough to make it worth their time.

To put it simply, KTM sells three times as many 450 XC-Fs as they do 450 SX-Fs in the US.

So with this simple tell tale, we can figure that off-road models are selling better for KTM.

So yes, KTM produces a 300XC as it's has a home in that market and sells well enough to make money. We can also figure that the total number of 300XCs sold is less than the number of 450 XC-Fs sold. A 300SX doesn't really have a home so it's sales could be figured to be less than the third that is the difference in the 450 models.

Now there is small interest so KTM produces a 300 SX Kit. There is more markup in a kit than a complete bike, so it helps cover the R&D costs a bit more. Secondly, if KTM say orders 200 of these kits and only sells 70 of these kits the first year, it can still slowly move the remaining kits over the next few years without lowering the cost. If KTM brings 200 units of a completed 300 SX bike and only sells 100 of those units, then they or their dealers have to blow those bikes out and maybe have to put a program together for cash back and other markdowns. Then the following year, they lower the quantity of that model they bring in...which means less profit. Also, as you mentioned you wouldn't be willing to buy a complete model for $900 more and even though the 300 kit if it came on the bike would replace some parts, we can figure that they will still have to have a low enough MSRP on the bike that it actually makes less profit than the kit.
Agreed, makes perfect logical business sense, something that KTM is very good at.
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kott0n 4/4/2017 3:44pm
4/4/2017 3:44pm
kott0n wrote:
If you put a 300 cyl on a 250 is it just the gearing that separates the power characteristics between a "300" sx and 300 exc...
If you put a 300 cyl on a 250 is it just the gearing that separates the power characteristics between a "300" sx and 300 exc?

Obviously you could tell from a frame/suspension difference between a SX and EXC, but the motor? I know the exc has longer gears so curious how that translates to a 250SX bottom end with a 300 cyl on it.
WVUpetro2013 wrote:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure the power characteristics wouldn't be as similar as one would thing. The reason being is...
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure the power characteristics wouldn't be as similar as one would thing. The reason being is I believe it would come with a more aggressive sx ignition, and a higher compression head. Again though that is what I was lead to believe.
That would be a RIPPER of a 2 stroke with some aggressive mapping and high compression.
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kiwifan 4/4/2017 4:20pm
4/4/2017 4:20pm
Jamal#440 wrote:
Should be, Why no 200SX from KTM?
isnt that the same reason why there is no 300SX? i.e. lack of sales from previous attempts
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endurox 4/4/2017 4:28pm
4/4/2017 4:28pm
I rode a 380sx once. Not much fun to ride. A new 300sx would have more power than the old 380. I suppose hill climbers would like it.
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kott0n 4/4/2017 4:39pm
4/4/2017 4:39pm
endurox wrote:
I rode a 380sx once. Not much fun to ride. A new 300sx would have more power than the old 380. I suppose hill climbers would...
I rode a 380sx once. Not much fun to ride. A new 300sx would have more power than the old 380. I suppose hill climbers would like it.
No rev?

I mean my 500 doesn't rev but you just go up a gear...

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Markee
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Markee 4/4/2017 5:53pm
4/4/2017 5:53pm
ML512 wrote:
Simple, sales...or lack there of. KTM as we've seen is willing to produce almost anything if they can get some decent volume from it. If they're...
Simple, sales...or lack there of.

KTM as we've seen is willing to produce almost anything if they can get some decent volume from it. If they're not making it, it means they don't think they can sell enough to make it worth their time.

To put it simply, KTM sells three times as many 450 XC-Fs as they do 450 SX-Fs in the US.

So with this simple tell tale, we can figure that off-road models are selling better for KTM.

So yes, KTM produces a 300XC as it's has a home in that market and sells well enough to make money. We can also figure that the total number of 300XCs sold is less than the number of 450 XC-Fs sold. A 300SX doesn't really have a home so it's sales could be figured to be less than the third that is the difference in the 450 models.

Now there is small interest so KTM produces a 300 SX Kit. There is more markup in a kit than a complete bike, so it helps cover the R&D costs a bit more. Secondly, if KTM say orders 200 of these kits and only sells 70 of these kits the first year, it can still slowly move the remaining kits over the next few years without lowering the cost. If KTM brings 200 units of a completed 300 SX bike and only sells 100 of those units, then they or their dealers have to blow those bikes out and maybe have to put a program together for cash back and other markdowns. Then the following year, they lower the quantity of that model they bring in...which means less profit. Also, as you mentioned you wouldn't be willing to buy a complete model for $900 more and even though the 300 kit if it came on the bike would replace some parts, we can figure that they will still have to have a low enough MSRP on the bike that it actually makes less profit than the kit.
kiwifan wrote:
Agreed, makes perfect logical business sense, something that KTM is very good at.
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I don't know.

I said No to a 900 increase from a 250 because of manufacturing cost, the cost was covered in the better selling offroad sector. I guess it boils down to KTM has a better chance selling the kit as a up sell later to a smaller market than the complete bike? Which is why I started the thread and question.

I get where you are going ML, but KTM has and will make unique motorcycles, the 150sx, the 690 Enduro R, Freeride 250 R.. Shit they even have a 150 XC, They make corresponding SX models for every XC bike but the 300.


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kiwifan 4/4/2017 6:01pm
4/4/2017 6:01pm
Markee wrote:
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I...
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I don't know.

I said No to a 900 increase from a 250 because of manufacturing cost, the cost was covered in the better selling offroad sector. I guess it boils down to KTM has a better chance selling the kit as a up sell later to a smaller market than the complete bike? Which is why I started the thread and question.

I get where you are going ML, but KTM has and will make unique motorcycles, the 150sx, the 690 Enduro R, Freeride 250 R.. Shit they even have a 150 XC, They make corresponding SX models for every XC bike but the 300.


I would of thought because the 250 is a more freer revving bike it suits the pros more, whereas the 300 is more torquier so suits the average joe, trailer rider, occasional racer, Vet rider, etc.... Hence why both are very popular.
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ML512 4/4/2017 6:04pm
4/4/2017 6:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 6:05pm
Markee wrote:
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I...
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I don't know.

I said No to a 900 increase from a 250 because of manufacturing cost, the cost was covered in the better selling offroad sector. I guess it boils down to KTM has a better chance selling the kit as a up sell later to a smaller market than the complete bike? Which is why I started the thread and question.

I get where you are going ML, but KTM has and will make unique motorcycles, the 150sx, the 690 Enduro R, Freeride 250 R.. Shit they even have a 150 XC, They make corresponding SX models for every XC bike but the 300.


Clearly they sell enough 250 and 300 XCs to be worth the cost. Depending upon the off-road series, a 250 XC can be raced with 250Fs and the 300 is raced in the 450/open class. So yes, there's actually separate classes in some areas.

Simple market research and sales figures vs interest of their 300 SX kit gives them an idea if a 300 SX model is worth producing. And since we don't have one, it clearly means they don't see the value/return on investment to make it. KTM has cut down some model lines compared to the past because the sales aren't there (200s are an example).
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montesagold 4/4/2017 6:26pm
4/4/2017 6:26pm
metal_miracle wrote:
Apparently a 200cc wont fit the new 125 cases
It has been done, a couple of them around in the southeast. Guy out of Florida is taking a 150 and going to a 200, no clue what mods to make it happen. Awesome bike though...
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Micahdogg 4/4/2017 6:38pm
4/4/2017 6:38pm
Mxa did a 300 jug kit on a 250. I think peak power went from 49 to 52. But they said it was nothing like a 300xc....it was just "more 250 everywhere." Sounds fun but not practical.
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crt32 4/4/2017 7:05pm
4/4/2017 7:05pm
In 2013 my practice bike was a 250 and my race bike was a 300; so I often times rode both bikes throughout a race weekend. I found that I was actually faster on my 250...especially on the starts. The 250 with the lighter piston revved faster out of the gate. Additionally, the 250 vibrated ALOT less. The KTM cranks are not balanced the greatest from the factory, and when you add on the heavier 300 piston you can really feel the difference. The cranks also cannot hold up long term with the additional weight (I've posted pics in previous threads).

Now woods riders and vet riders the 300 would be perfect, doesnt hit as hard and can lug around in 3rd. However, the XC takes care of the woods riders so by adding a 300sx KTM doesn't add much to their market.
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brandyn14 4/4/2017 7:40pm
4/4/2017 7:40pm
The 250sx is a awesome bike, the 300xc is a slug the gear box is way different. It's fairly cheap to put a 300 on a 250sx
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Markee 4/4/2017 8:16pm
4/4/2017 8:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2017 8:26pm
Markee wrote:
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I...
Where is the logical business sense in a 250 XC and 300 XC? Is there a offroad racing class that separates the two bikes? Seriously, I don't know.

I said No to a 900 increase from a 250 because of manufacturing cost, the cost was covered in the better selling offroad sector. I guess it boils down to KTM has a better chance selling the kit as a up sell later to a smaller market than the complete bike? Which is why I started the thread and question.

I get where you are going ML, but KTM has and will make unique motorcycles, the 150sx, the 690 Enduro R, Freeride 250 R.. Shit they even have a 150 XC, They make corresponding SX models for every XC bike but the 300.


ML512 wrote:
Clearly they sell enough 250 and 300 XCs to be worth the cost. Depending upon the off-road series, a 250 XC can be raced with 250Fs...
Clearly they sell enough 250 and 300 XCs to be worth the cost. Depending upon the off-road series, a 250 XC can be raced with 250Fs and the 300 is raced in the 450/open class. So yes, there's actually separate classes in some areas.

Simple market research and sales figures vs interest of their 300 SX kit gives them an idea if a 300 SX model is worth producing. And since we don't have one, it clearly means they don't see the value/return on investment to make it. KTM has cut down some model lines compared to the past because the sales aren't there (200s are an example).
Man, who would race the 450 open class with a 300 if you can race the 250 class with the 250s. I know in offroad bigger not always better, but from marketing stand point, seems like the 300 XC would be a albatross just like the 300 SX would be from this discussion. Oh well.

The 300 sx will rev to the moon, so I don't agree with everyones experiences. Great motor. I tune them to sing great songs.

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nickm
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nickm 4/4/2017 8:27pm
4/4/2017 8:27pm
They should be making a 500xc...I'm surprised they haven't given the niche bikes they build.
ML512
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ML512 4/4/2017 8:46pm
4/4/2017 8:46pm
nickm wrote:
They should be making a 500xc...I'm surprised they haven't given the niche bikes they build.
Once again, ROI (return on investment) is the main thing. They would have to sell enough of them to make what they need to. When the niche brand doesn't build a niche bike, that means it's one really...really small niche.

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