Why does only Yamaha have SSS suspension?

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early
Edited Date/Time 9/1/2018 6:10am
I was watching the Transworld 450 shootout and they were saying how the new Honda band Kawasaki "works" style forks were not as good feeling as the Yamaha. Over 10 years of the SSS stuff being praised and no other manufacturer has it. Does Yamaha have a patent or exclusive agreement with KYB on the units?
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Sheriff245 8/30/2018 8:02am
8/30/2018 8:02am
Kawasaki and Honda both had it on their 450's at one point. Then they jumped on the air fork bandwagon, couldn't get the PSF1s setup properly and then moved back to Showa.

I believe TM runs the same KYB forks as Yamaha, but what really makes them great ont Yamahas is the setup. The new Showa 49's can be made to work just as well.
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early 8/30/2018 8:21am
8/30/2018 8:21am
Sheriff245 wrote:
Kawasaki and Honda both had it on their 450's at one point. Then they jumped on the air fork bandwagon, couldn't get the PSF1s setup properly...
Kawasaki and Honda both had it on their 450's at one point. Then they jumped on the air fork bandwagon, couldn't get the PSF1s setup properly and then moved back to Showa.

I believe TM runs the same KYB forks as Yamaha, but what really makes them great ont Yamahas is the setup. The new Showa 49's can be made to work just as well.
Interesting, what a debacle the air fork thing was.
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H4L
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H4L 8/30/2018 8:42am
8/30/2018 8:42am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2018 9:35am
Owned 09 & 10 CRF450r's with the AOS KYB's which is essentially the same as the SSS with different valving / spring specs. Yamaha named their 2006 + suspension SSS as a marketing thing with the KYB components. What Yamaha had over the Honda units was the R&D with the help of KYB that have very good specs from the showroom floor.

That being said the new production Showa 49mm A-kit forks & shock on an 18 CRF450r purchased are just as good IMHO. I'd imagine that reputable suspension companies like FC has had a couple of yrs. now of R&D & could make them even better.
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phatfi20
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phatfi20 8/30/2018 8:47am
8/30/2018 8:47am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2018 8:47am
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is obviously really good.

TM has used the same exact forks but with their own setup in them for years. The TM valving, up until recently hasn't been near as good.
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Lightning78 8/30/2018 8:52am
8/30/2018 8:52am
phatfi20 wrote:
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is...
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is obviously really good.

TM has used the same exact forks but with their own setup in them for years. The TM valving, up until recently hasn't been near as good.
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings and not give them out to any other mfg.

BTW: SSS stands for Speed Sensitive System....the valving is based on the speed of the fork slider travel, not position sensitive like 90% of the other systems spec'd from other mfg's are done as.
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Lightning78 8/30/2018 9:00am
8/30/2018 9:00am
What Id really like to know is how I can emulate the Yamaha settings in an AOSS fork from Kawi so I can put it on my 03 KX250 and have the front suspension of the gods lol.

I am considering buying a set of YZ kyb SSS forks BUT they are becoming harder and harder to get since everyone wants to put them on their project bikes etc...... If I could replicate that valving spec on the 07/08 KX450 fork, id be on hog heaven.....the idea is to do it myself and not have to send the forks out to have work done to them.

I still to this day have NO idea why most dudes send their Yamaha KYB SSS forks out to be "revalved" they are nearly perfect straight from the factory, so much so it almost feels like theyre cheating with having such a great set of forks right out of the gate but how much can a suspension tuner actually improve over something that is already so perfectly set up? Sure they can do springs but why do so many of you send out your Yamaha forks to be revalved when they come dead nuts on from the factory?
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slipdog
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slipdog 8/30/2018 9:03am
8/30/2018 9:03am
I don't pretend to know about any "agreements" between Yamaha and KYB, but do you guys realize that almost every year/model of Yamaha fork has different settings(save a long run of the Yz 2-stroke from '06-'14ish). The 4-stroke spring rates, base valve, mid valve and rebound settings are constantly changing. There is no one special valving Yamaha has always used in every fork since '06...
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theycallmeebryan 8/30/2018 9:04am
8/30/2018 9:04am
Lightning78 wrote:
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings...
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings and not give them out to any other mfg.

BTW: SSS stands for Speed Sensitive System....the valving is based on the speed of the fork slider travel, not position sensitive like 90% of the other systems spec'd from other mfg's are done as.
Position sensitive? All dampers with a valve stack are considered speed sensitive to some degree, especially those with multiple stage valve stacks. The position sensitivity you may feel is coming from the increased spring pressure as you get deeper in the stroke.
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F150Motocrosser 8/30/2018 9:11am
8/30/2018 9:11am
My 2013 Husky TXC310R has SSS forks.. It's more of a cross country / woods bike, but I ride the bike on the track probably more than I do in the woods - and the suspension, even in stock form, is great. Just had to dial in the compression a little more from the base setting.

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early 8/30/2018 9:16am
8/30/2018 9:16am
So, is the valve achitecture the same in the SSS fork as the AOS fork? Also what does AOS stand for again?
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slipdog
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slipdog 8/30/2018 9:19am
8/30/2018 9:19am
early wrote:
So, is the valve achitecture the same in the SSS fork as the AOS fork? Also what does AOS stand for again?
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and everyone has run with that term since.
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early 8/30/2018 9:23am
8/30/2018 9:23am
slipdog wrote:
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and...
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and everyone has run with that term since.
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them, I have never worked on Yamaha forks.
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Juss72 8/30/2018 9:26am
8/30/2018 9:26am
I picked up an 06 YZ450F last night. Bike caught on fire and burned the plastics, seat etc. Forks are good as is the engine. I'm going to have forks done & put on my 2005 YZ250.
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H4L 8/30/2018 9:28am
8/30/2018 9:28am
early wrote:
So, is the valve achitecture the same in the SSS fork as the AOS fork? Also what does AOS stand for again?
slipdog wrote:
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and...
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and everyone has run with that term since.
Yep. Pretty much in a nutshell.
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slipdog 8/30/2018 9:36am
8/30/2018 9:36am
slipdog wrote:
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and...
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and everyone has run with that term since.
early wrote:
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them...
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them, I have never worked on Yamaha forks.
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a very long tapered bottoming system that was position sensitive they called the TCV(transfer control valve). they promoted it and in the end between the TCV and other reasons, that fork sucked ass. It was such a flop that they replaced it with a new version in '06 and to get away from the perceived position sensitive TCV being the reason the '05 was so bad they coined the term "SSS" to convince the public that position sensitive sucks and the new "Speed Sensitive System" forks are the way to go.
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early 8/30/2018 9:46am
8/30/2018 9:46am
Thanks for all the info on the subject guys!
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bnero44 8/30/2018 10:12am
8/30/2018 10:12am
F150Motocrosser wrote:
My 2013 Husky TXC310R has SSS forks.. It's more of a cross country / woods bike, but I ride the bike on the track probably more...
My 2013 Husky TXC310R has SSS forks.. It's more of a cross country / woods bike, but I ride the bike on the track probably more than I do in the woods - and the suspension, even in stock form, is great. Just had to dial in the compression a little more from the base setting.

AOS*

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F150Motocrosser 8/30/2018 10:14am
8/30/2018 10:14am
F150Motocrosser wrote:
My 2013 Husky TXC310R has SSS forks.. It's more of a cross country / woods bike, but I ride the bike on the track probably more...
My 2013 Husky TXC310R has SSS forks.. It's more of a cross country / woods bike, but I ride the bike on the track probably more than I do in the woods - and the suspension, even in stock form, is great. Just had to dial in the compression a little more from the base setting.

bnero44 wrote:
AOS*
Yes sir... I learned something today Smile
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Falcon 8/30/2018 11:02am
8/30/2018 11:02am
All I know is that I went from an Enzo-tuned '05 YZ (non-SSS) to a stock '06 (SSS,) and I could not tell the difference in the forks. The new stockers were as good as Enzo stuff from '05.
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Derek Harris 8/30/2018 12:08pm
8/30/2018 12:08pm
early wrote:
I was watching the Transworld 450 shootout and they were saying how the new Honda band Kawasaki "works" style forks were not as good feeling as...
I was watching the Transworld 450 shootout and they were saying how the new Honda band Kawasaki "works" style forks were not as good feeling as the Yamaha. Over 10 years of the SSS stuff being praised and no other manufacturer has it. Does Yamaha have a patent or exclusive agreement with KYB on the units?
The kx, crf both shared the exact same SSS kyb fork for a few years

The showa 48 spring fork is a showaba - clone of the KYB SSS

And the new "works" showa 49 spring fork is very similar to the KYB SSS in design.


The SINGLE biggest difference in feel - was chassis between those bikes - and shock settings and influence on the front.

The settings between the crf - yzf-and kxf werent that far apart at times
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grunkster 8/30/2018 12:29pm
8/30/2018 12:29pm
diggin' my 19'yz250f stuff....it is weird...feels very firm bouncing on it...yet somehow nice and plush while riding
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VRR7 8/30/2018 1:23pm
8/30/2018 1:23pm
phatfi20 wrote:
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is...
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is obviously really good.

TM has used the same exact forks but with their own setup in them for years. The TM valving, up until recently hasn't been near as good.
Lightning78 wrote:
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings...
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings and not give them out to any other mfg.

BTW: SSS stands for Speed Sensitive System....the valving is based on the speed of the fork slider travel, not position sensitive like 90% of the other systems spec'd from other mfg's are done as.
This does not even make sense - How hard can it be to open a set of yamaha forks and count the and measure the shims - It is not possible to patent shim stacks ! Patents are only for a new idea not know by anyone else !
SeaClassExpert 8/30/2018 2:10pm
8/30/2018 2:10pm
slipdog wrote:
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and...
There is no such thing as an SSS fork. They are all KYB AOS(air oil separate). Yamaha just called their fork an SSS in '06 and everyone has run with that term since.
early wrote:
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them...
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them, I have never worked on Yamaha forks.
slipdog wrote:
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a...
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a very long tapered bottoming system that was position sensitive they called the TCV(transfer control valve). they promoted it and in the end between the TCV and other reasons, that fork sucked ass. It was such a flop that they replaced it with a new version in '06 and to get away from the perceived position sensitive TCV being the reason the '05 was so bad they coined the term "SSS" to convince the public that position sensitive sucks and the new "Speed Sensitive System" forks are the way to go.
This is why Slip is the best poster on this site, I learn something new every time.
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slipdog
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slipdog 8/30/2018 2:30pm
8/30/2018 2:30pm
early wrote:
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them...
Cool, wonder who came up with Speed Sensitive System which is literally the definition of damping. I assumed the was a different valve archtecture in them, I have never worked on Yamaha forks.
slipdog wrote:
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a...
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a very long tapered bottoming system that was position sensitive they called the TCV(transfer control valve). they promoted it and in the end between the TCV and other reasons, that fork sucked ass. It was such a flop that they replaced it with a new version in '06 and to get away from the perceived position sensitive TCV being the reason the '05 was so bad they coined the term "SSS" to convince the public that position sensitive sucks and the new "Speed Sensitive System" forks are the way to go.
SeaClassExpert wrote:
This is why Slip is the best poster on this site, I learn something new every time.
Awww... shucks! BlushBlushBlush
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mister2dt 8/30/2018 2:49pm
8/30/2018 2:49pm
phatfi20 wrote:
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is...
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is obviously really good.

TM has used the same exact forks but with their own setup in them for years. The TM valving, up until recently hasn't been near as good.
Lightning78 wrote:
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings...
This.....much like how Honda had a patent on the front brake line routing for YEARS, Yamaha has a special "handshake" with KYB to retain their settings and not give them out to any other mfg.

BTW: SSS stands for Speed Sensitive System....the valving is based on the speed of the fork slider travel, not position sensitive like 90% of the other systems spec'd from other mfg's are done as.
VRR7 wrote:
This does not even make sense - How hard can it be to open a set of yamaha forks and count the and measure the shims...
This does not even make sense - How hard can it be to open a set of yamaha forks and count the and measure the shims - It is not possible to patent shim stacks ! Patents are only for a new idea not know by anyone else !
Shim stacks amd valving on a Yamaha chassis wont readily translate to the same feel on a different chassis design. Revisions still need to be made to suit the chassis and the rider
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mwr 8/30/2018 3:10pm
8/30/2018 3:10pm
phatfi20 wrote:
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is...
MXA always talks about this. The SSS forks are used alot like posters above have said. Yamaha has the rights to their specific setup/valving which is obviously really good.

TM has used the same exact forks but with their own setup in them for years. The TM valving, up until recently hasn't been near as good.
I have a TM and the first thing I did was have the forks revalved with the YZ250 stack as a baseline. Good stuff.
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NeedMoto 8/30/2018 4:26pm
8/30/2018 4:26pm
slipdog wrote:
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a...
I'm not 100% on details, but the original AOS in '05 was brought out to be the new generation of KYB fork and they had a very long tapered bottoming system that was position sensitive they called the TCV(transfer control valve). they promoted it and in the end between the TCV and other reasons, that fork sucked ass. It was such a flop that they replaced it with a new version in '06 and to get away from the perceived position sensitive TCV being the reason the '05 was so bad they coined the term "SSS" to convince the public that position sensitive sucks and the new "Speed Sensitive System" forks are the way to go.
SeaClassExpert wrote:
This is why Slip is the best poster on this site, I learn something new every time.
slipdog wrote:
Awww... shucks! BlushBlushBlush
Don't be fooled Slip. SeaClass just wants a discountWhistling J/K
slipdog
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slipdog 8/30/2018 4:50pm
8/30/2018 4:50pm
NeedMoto wrote:
Don't be fooled Slip. SeaClass just wants a discountWhistling J/K
Discount???

If he keeps complimenting me like that I may just let him get to 2nd base behind the bleachers at the pep rally for the homecoming game!
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H4L
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H4L 8/30/2018 6:12pm
8/30/2018 6:12pm
mister2dt wrote:
Shim stacks amd valving on a Yamaha chassis wont readily translate to the same feel on a different chassis design. Revisions still need to be made...
Shim stacks amd valving on a Yamaha chassis wont readily translate to the same feel on a different chassis design. Revisions still need to be made to suit the chassis and the rider
That's right. There is a big difference for example from the 09-12 CRF450r Honda to the Yamaha YZ450F of similiar years.

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