Why are 250s better

imoto34
Posts
3781
Joined
1/28/2010
Location
TN US
Fantasy
3151st
7/4/2018 5:38pm
Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on reguardless..Blink
peltier626
Posts
1401
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
7/4/2018 5:52pm
I'm not sure why the munchers, but it is a very valid topic. There is proof in the lap times.
imoto34
Posts
3781
Joined
1/28/2010
Location
TN US
Fantasy
3151st
7/4/2018 5:58pm
peltier626 wrote:
I'm not sure why the munchers, but it is a very valid topic. There is proof in the lap times.
After the years of 250f and 450f racing, I am still faster on the "smaller" bike unless the track is loamy or has some big jumps that you need the 450 to clear. That's mostly when out of the corner type jumps into rythems etc

That being said, imo it takes more talent to go fast on the 450 on some tracks.
BR8ES
Posts
1914
Joined
6/3/2018
Location
Bennett, CO US
7/4/2018 6:11pm
More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and Premier class glory. Don't blame them, but sure would be nice to see a couple guys move up or the Premier class reconsidered.

The Shop

imoto34
Posts
3781
Joined
1/28/2010
Location
TN US
Fantasy
3151st
7/4/2018 6:16pm
BR8ES wrote:
More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and...
More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and Premier class glory. Don't blame them, but sure would be nice to see a couple guys move up or the Premier class reconsidered.
Send nudes.










Never
BR8ES
Posts
1914
Joined
6/3/2018
Location
Bennett, CO US
7/4/2018 6:17pm
BR8ES wrote:
More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and...
More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and Premier class glory. Don't blame them, but sure would be nice to see a couple guys move up or the Premier class reconsidered.
imoto34 wrote:
Send nudes.










Never
What?
zehn
Posts
7212
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
7/4/2018 6:50pm
peltier626 wrote:
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990 Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one =...
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one = 2:21.151, moto two 2:22.471

The 250 class is quicker than the 450 class. More power does not correlate to more speed. The limits have been reached. It seems this lesson should have been learned with the 500 two stroke, but yet history is repeating itself once again.
Almost like the 450s rode a sand track after the 250s ?

Did you even think before posting this?
peltier626
Posts
1401
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
7/4/2018 6:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2018 6:59pm
The track was not prepped between moto's and the 250f's second moto is still quicker than the moto one of the 450's. Yes, i did think before posting this.
peltier626
Posts
1401
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
7/4/2018 7:22pm
I'll also check redbud times to see how they compare.
BobPA
Posts
8023
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
7/4/2018 7:39pm
imoto34 wrote:
Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on reguardless..Blink
What you got against ass munchers bro?
zehn
Posts
7212
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
7/4/2018 7:42pm
peltier626 wrote:
The track was not prepped between moto's and the 250f's second moto is still quicker than the moto one of the 450's. Yes, i did think...
The track was not prepped between moto's and the 250f's second moto is still quicker than the moto one of the 450's. Yes, i did think before posting this.
Nvm
zehn
Posts
7212
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
7/4/2018 7:45pm
imoto34 wrote:
Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on reguardless..Blink
BobPA wrote:
What you got against ass munchers bro?
#IEATASS
7/4/2018 9:16pm
newmann wrote:
Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer a...
Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer a well paying 450 ride to more riders. It's not real hard to figure out why people stay in a really well paying job rather than jump in the unemployment line.
First off, not angry whatsoever. And secondly, I understand why people race the 250 class. I simply wish the teams and OEM's would not put such importance on the 250 class. Stated it in multiple threads already. Really not sure why you'd question the things I've said. Would you not like to see all the premier guys in the 450 class racing each other? Sure would make things a little more exciting. The current structure is broken and that is evident with how weak the field is. Don't need any more lectures about why the 250 guys stay on 250s. It's quite simple to understand. Vitards can't get enough of a pointless argument, though.
haydos25
Posts
1689
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney AU
Fantasy
3302nd
7/4/2018 9:37pm
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't get better as the engines get bigger in any category that i can think of.
BobbyM
Posts
21449
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
AZ US
7/4/2018 9:43pm
Why is it the racing in the 250 class is so much better then the 450 racing almost every year? On any 250 race we have...
Why is it the racing in the 250 class is so much better then the 450 racing almost every year? On any 250 race we have zero idea who might win that Moto. It could be one of ten different guys. The 450s are almost always a 2 man freight train looking like synchronized riding with the rest of the pack a zip code away?
Because the 250 racers don't know any better.
swtwtwtw
Posts
1287
Joined
4/16/2008
Location
Apple Valley, CA US
7/4/2018 10:03pm
No USADA or WADA. No drug testing.
#434
Posts
1917
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
7/5/2018 12:07am
haydos25 wrote:
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes? What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes? Racing doesn't get better as the...
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't get better as the engines get bigger in any category that i can think of.
car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less power --> better, more spectacular racing

chump6784
Posts
1687
Joined
5/9/2011
Location
AU
7/5/2018 1:01am
haydos25 wrote:
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes? What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes? Racing doesn't get better as the...
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't get better as the engines get bigger in any category that i can think of.
#434 wrote:
car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less power --> better, more spectacular racing

I would argue that the racing in moto3 and moto2 is better than moto gp. The riders are closer and a small mistake takes more to recover from. At a track like Philip Island in the moto3 class a guy can come onto the main straight in first and lose 4-5 spots by the first turn.

When only 2 or 3 guys can really ride a 450, the racing will suffer. As has been said above, more guys can ring the neck off a 250 pushing them to the limit. This means more guys can run similar speeds and therefore closer racing
#434
Posts
1917
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
7/5/2018 1:53am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2018 1:53am
haydos25 wrote:
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes? What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes? Racing doesn't get better as the...
Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't get better as the engines get bigger in any category that i can think of.
#434 wrote:
car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less power --> better, more spectacular racing

chump6784 wrote:
I would argue that the racing in moto3 and moto2 is better than moto gp. The riders are closer and a small mistake takes more to...
I would argue that the racing in moto3 and moto2 is better than moto gp. The riders are closer and a small mistake takes more to recover from. At a track like Philip Island in the moto3 class a guy can come onto the main straight in first and lose 4-5 spots by the first turn.

When only 2 or 3 guys can really ride a 450, the racing will suffer. As has been said above, more guys can ring the neck off a 250 pushing them to the limit. This means more guys can run similar speeds and therefore closer racing
First of all, MotoGP racing is mind-blowing at the moment and this era will be remembered for a long time. You're right, there is a limit for "less power". Moto3 and 125s on deep tracks is maybe not enough. However, Moto2 offers great racing.

I think the problem with 450s (especially in SX) is that you can jump anything from every line. 250s maybe come close in jumping stuff and lap times, but they need a free track and good lines to do that. When racing, the 250 riders have to think about stuff like: do I protect my line or do I jump the big triple.. this offers possibility for a pass and creates better racing.
7/5/2018 2:44am Edited Date/Time 7/5/2018 2:48am
If you look at the 450 GPs the racing is totally awesome, and so more than anything (though I'm not not saying the other things mentioned aren't a factor) it mostly comes down to the riders.

The problem with the 450 Nationals is that you can't help but get the impression many of the riders would rather not be doing them - which to be fair given the insane amount of racing the AMA based stars already do, is understandable...

The whole format is all over very quick; Saturday back to back motos on (at this point) very familiar tracks and then everyone goes home. There's no long drawn out 2 or 3 day format of racing across a weekend, perhaps with many different classes etc. And when the top guys can't or are done with winning, they instantly retire. Again, sry for the constant comparison, but in the GPs the class is full to the brim of ex moto and overall winners, and even a few ex 250 and 450 champions, hanging around from the top 5 - 15, and as a result it's an extremely competitive class and is interesting to watch.

It is of course a similar scenario in the AMA 250s with a class full of talent and guys that aren't burned out and are highly motivated to be there.
Joko
Posts
1430
Joined
1/2/2011
Location
Cromwell, CT US
Fantasy
239th
7/5/2018 10:31am
peltier626 wrote:
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990 Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one =...
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one = 2:21.151, moto two 2:22.471

The 250 class is quicker than the 450 class. More power does not correlate to more speed. The limits have been reached. It seems this lesson should have been learned with the 500 two stroke, but yet history is repeating itself once again.
Curious, do you know what the 125 best lap times were for comparision?
HusqFan3
Posts
722
Joined
4/30/2018
Location
Sammamish, WA US
7/5/2018 11:26am
Because the best racing should be in the 450 class. Racers should strive to be on a 450. Don't really care what lammy did. Saw it...
Because the best racing should be in the 450 class. Racers should strive to be on a 450. Don't really care what lammy did. Saw it all and that doesn't change my view or make it "ok" IMO that racers and teams care more about 250s due to an easier chance of victory. Then again, I'm not a sandbagger who stayed down a class to win plastic trophies. Couldn't wait to take the next step as a racer. BTW, Lammy raced the 250 plenty in Supercross. Did pretty damn good too.
BobPA wrote:
Why should the best racing be on 450’s? I did not see that in the AMA rulebook. To bad your education level did not progress like...
Why should the best racing be on 450’s? I did not see that in the AMA rulebook.

To bad your education level did not progress like your, supposed, MX abilities.
STFU douche.

Edit: By the way, since you're trying to insult my intelligence, it's "too bad", imbecile.
Haha. I have to admit he did walk right into that one. I don’t believe in correcting someone’s grammar on an MX board unless they use poor grammar to insult someone’s intelligence. In that case it’s fair game.
HusqFan3
Posts
722
Joined
4/30/2018
Location
Sammamish, WA US
7/5/2018 11:39am
newmann wrote:
Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer a...
Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer a well paying 450 ride to more riders. It's not real hard to figure out why people stay in a really well paying job rather than jump in the unemployment line.
First off, not angry whatsoever. And secondly, I understand why people race the 250 class. I simply wish the teams and OEM's would not put such...
First off, not angry whatsoever. And secondly, I understand why people race the 250 class. I simply wish the teams and OEM's would not put such importance on the 250 class. Stated it in multiple threads already. Really not sure why you'd question the things I've said. Would you not like to see all the premier guys in the 450 class racing each other? Sure would make things a little more exciting. The current structure is broken and that is evident with how weak the field is. Don't need any more lectures about why the 250 guys stay on 250s. It's quite simple to understand. Vitards can't get enough of a pointless argument, though.
I pretty much agree with everything you’re saying. Of course it would be ideal to have the 40 best riders at the gate. I don’t think it’s a question of sandbagging as much as it’s an issue with not having enough factory rides available in the 450 class. If Jmart, Osborne, Plessinger, Savatgy, Ferrandis, AC, Forkner, McElrath, Jordan Smith, etc all decided to move up to the 450 class it would unquestionably drastically improve the competition in the premiere class. But where are all these guys going to land? There’s only so many factory rides available so until that gets addressed you’ll contine to have top riders staying put in the lights class.
haydos25
Posts
1689
Joined
8/4/2010
Location
Sydney AU
Fantasy
3302nd
7/5/2018 4:13pm
Manufacturers want to sell 250 bikes just as much as they want to sell 450's. My guess is the budget for riders in 450's and 250's is probably pretty similar. Difference is you get 2 x 250 guys for the cost of every 450 guy so the budget doesn't go as far.

Hypothetically lets think about what Factory Yamaha will pay next year for Barcia and Webb, 1.5-2 million? Something like that? Probably gets you 3 base level up and comers,on 200k a mid level like Ferrandis on 350k and a Plessinger 500k for ballpark the same money in the Lites class. Obviously these are guesses and im probably overinflating them alot, i have no idea on actual figures, but its easy to see why there is an excess of rides in the 250's and not as many in the 450's.

You get better bang for your buck in the Lites class. It hurts less throwing a couple hundred at a few up and comers all at once hoping something sticks and one breaks through for a win eg. Justin Cooper, then it does throwing in excess of a million at Barcia to have him run 5-10 like he did at JGR. TV coverage is the same, don't matter which class you win.
peltier626
Posts
1401
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
7/5/2018 5:39pm
peltier626 wrote:
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990 Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one =...
Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one = 2:21.151, moto two 2:22.471

The 250 class is quicker than the 450 class. More power does not correlate to more speed. The limits have been reached. It seems this lesson should have been learned with the 500 two stroke, but yet history is repeating itself once again.
Joko wrote:
Curious, do you know what the 125 best lap times were for comparision?
I'm not sure where to find any of the lap times for the 125's but i am eager to know how they stack up also.

Post a reply to: Why are 250s better

The Latest