Why are 250s better

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7/4/2018 5:29 PM

Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap times averaged moto one = 2:21.151, moto two 2:22.471

The 250 class is quicker than the 450 class. More power does not correlate to more speed. The limits have been reached. It seems this lesson should have been learned with the 500 two stroke, but yet history is repeating itself once again.

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7/4/2018 5:38 PM

Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on reguardless..blink

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7/4/2018 5:52 PM

I'm not sure why the munchers, but it is a very valid topic. There is proof in the lap times.

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7/4/2018 5:58 PM

peltier626 wrote:

I'm not sure why the munchers, but it is a very valid topic. There is proof in the lap times.

After the years of 250f and 450f racing, I am still faster on the "smaller" bike unless the track is loamy or has some big jumps that you need the 450 to clear. That's mostly when out of the corner type jumps into rythems etc

That being said, imo it takes more talent to go fast on the 450 on some tracks.

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7/4/2018 6:11 PM

More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure trumps aspirations and Premier class glory. Don't blame them, but sure would be nice to see a couple guys move up or the Premier class reconsidered.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

7/4/2018 6:16 PM

BR8ES wrote:

More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure ...more

Send nudes.










Never

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7/4/2018 6:17 PM

BR8ES wrote:

More to it then just lap times. Remember the 500cc days? The smaller classes often had faster times then too. A paycheck sure ...more

imoto34 wrote:

Send nudes.










Never

What?

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vomiting equals disqualification.

7/4/2018 6:50 PM

peltier626 wrote:

Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap ...more

Almost like the 450s rode a sand track after the 250s ?

Did you even think before posting this?

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7/4/2018 6:58 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/4/2018 6:59 PM

The track was not prepped between moto's and the 250f's second moto is still quicker than the moto one of the 450's. Yes, i did think before posting this.

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7/4/2018 7:22 PM

I'll also check redbud times to see how they compare.

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7/4/2018 7:39 PM

imoto34 wrote:

Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on ...more

What you got against ass munchers bro?

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

7/4/2018 7:42 PM

peltier626 wrote:

The track was not prepped between moto's and the 250f's second moto is still quicker than the moto one of the 450's. Yes, i ...more

Nvm

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7/4/2018 7:45 PM

imoto34 wrote:

Wait, was this about 250 vs 450 racing or two ass munchers bickering at one another like two teenage girls?

Please carry on ...more

BobPA wrote:

What you got against ass munchers bro?

#IEATASS

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7/4/2018 9:16 PM

newmann wrote:

Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer ...more

First off, not angry whatsoever. And secondly, I understand why people race the 250 class. I simply wish the teams and OEM's would not put such importance on the 250 class. Stated it in multiple threads already. Really not sure why you'd question the things I've said. Would you not like to see all the premier guys in the 450 class racing each other? Sure would make things a little more exciting. The current structure is broken and that is evident with how weak the field is. Don't need any more lectures about why the 250 guys stay on 250s. It's quite simple to understand. Vitards can't get enough of a pointless argument, though.

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7/4/2018 9:37 PM

Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't get better as the engines get bigger in any category that i can think of.

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7/4/2018 9:43 PM

MrKnowNothing wrote:

Why is it the racing in the 250 class is so much better then the 450 racing almost every year? On any 250 race we have zero ...more

Because the 250 racers don't know any better.

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7/4/2018 10:03 PM

No USADA or WADA. No drug testing.

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7/5/2018 12:07 AM

haydos25 wrote:

Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't ...more

car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less power --> better, more spectacular racing

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7/5/2018 1:01 AM

haydos25 wrote:

Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't ...more

#434 wrote:

car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less ...more

I would argue that the racing in moto3 and moto2 is better than moto gp. The riders are closer and a small mistake takes more to recover from. At a track like Philip Island in the moto3 class a guy can come onto the main straight in first and lose 4-5 spots by the first turn.

When only 2 or 3 guys can really ride a 450, the racing will suffer. As has been said above, more guys can ring the neck off a 250 pushing them to the limit. This means more guys can run similar speeds and therefore closer racing

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7/5/2018 1:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/5/2018 1:53 AM

haydos25 wrote:

Is the racing in Formula 1 better than all the lower classes?

What about MotoGP compared to the little bikes?

Racing doesn't ...more

#434 wrote:

car racing: more power --> better, more spectacular racing (in F1 the problem is the aerodynamics)
motorcycle racing: less ...more

chump6784 wrote:

I would argue that the racing in moto3 and moto2 is better than moto gp. The riders are closer and a small mistake takes more ...more

First of all, MotoGP racing is mind-blowing at the moment and this era will be remembered for a long time. You're right, there is a limit for "less power". Moto3 and 125s on deep tracks is maybe not enough. However, Moto2 offers great racing.

I think the problem with 450s (especially in SX) is that you can jump anything from every line. 250s maybe come close in jumping stuff and lap times, but they need a free track and good lines to do that. When racing, the 250 riders have to think about stuff like: do I protect my line or do I jump the big triple.. this offers possibility for a pass and creates better racing.

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7/5/2018 2:44 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/5/2018 2:48 AM

If you look at the 450 GPs the racing is totally awesome, and so more than anything (though I'm not not saying the other things mentioned aren't a factor) it mostly comes down to the riders.

The problem with the 450 Nationals is that you can't help but get the impression many of the riders would rather not be doing them - which to be fair given the insane amount of racing the AMA based stars already do, is understandable...

The whole format is all over very quick; Saturday back to back motos on (at this point) very familiar tracks and then everyone goes home. There's no long drawn out 2 or 3 day format of racing across a weekend, perhaps with many different classes etc. And when the top guys can't or are done with winning, they instantly retire. Again, sry for the constant comparison, but in the GPs the class is full to the brim of ex moto and overall winners, and even a few ex 250 and 450 champions, hanging around from the top 5 - 15, and as a result it's an extremely competitive class and is interesting to watch.

It is of course a similar scenario in the AMA 250s with a class full of talent and guys that aren't burned out and are highly motivated to be there.

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7/5/2018 10:31 AM

peltier626 wrote:

Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap ...more

Curious, do you know what the 125 best lap times were for comparision?

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7/5/2018 11:26 AM

Squirrelings wrote:

Because the best racing should be in the 450 class. Racers should strive to be on a 450. Don't really care what lammy did. Saw ...more

BobPA wrote:

Why should the best racing be on 450’s? I did not see that in the AMA rulebook.

To bad your education level did not progress ...more

Squirrelings wrote:

STFU douche.

Edit: By the way, since you're trying to insult my intelligence, it's "too bad", imbecile.

Haha. I have to admit he did walk right into that one. I don’t believe in correcting someone’s grammar on an MX board unless they use poor grammar to insult someone’s intelligence. In that case it’s fair game.

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7/5/2018 11:39 AM

Squirrelings wrote:

Seriously dude, give it up. I'm here to discuss moto with fellow moto people. I don't need you stalking me all over the forum ...more

newmann wrote:

Why don't you focus your anger towards the race teams and the OEM's who don't give enough of a shit about this sport to offer ...more

Squirrelings wrote:

First off, not angry whatsoever. And secondly, I understand why people race the 250 class. I simply wish the teams and OEM's ...more

I pretty much agree with everything you’re saying. Of course it would be ideal to have the 40 best riders at the gate. I don’t think it’s a question of sandbagging as much as it’s an issue with not having enough factory rides available in the 450 class. If Jmart, Osborne, Plessinger, Savatgy, Ferrandis, AC, Forkner, McElrath, Jordan Smith, etc all decided to move up to the 450 class it would unquestionably drastically improve the competition in the premiere class. But where are all these guys going to land? There’s only so many factory rides available so until that gets addressed you’ll contine to have top riders staying put in the lights class.

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7/5/2018 4:13 PM

Manufacturers want to sell 250 bikes just as much as they want to sell 450's. My guess is the budget for riders in 450's and 250's is probably pretty similar. Difference is you get 2 x 250 guys for the cost of every 450 guy so the budget doesn't go as far.

Hypothetically lets think about what Factory Yamaha will pay next year for Barcia and Webb, 1.5-2 million? Something like that? Probably gets you 3 base level up and comers,on 200k a mid level like Ferrandis on 350k and a Plessinger 500k for ballpark the same money in the Lites class. Obviously these are guesses and im probably overinflating them alot, i have no idea on actual figures, but its easy to see why there is an excess of rides in the 250's and not as many in the 450's.

You get better bang for your buck in the Lites class. It hurts less throwing a couple hundred at a few up and comers all at once hoping something sticks and one breaks through for a win eg. Justin Cooper, then it does throwing in excess of a million at Barcia to have him run 5-10 like he did at JGR. TV coverage is the same, don't matter which class you win.

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7/5/2018 5:39 PM

peltier626 wrote:

Some stats from southwick. Top twenty 250f lap times averaged moto one = 2:18.787, moto two 2:19.990

Top twenty 450f lap ...more

Joko wrote:

Curious, do you know what the 125 best lap times were for comparision?

I'm not sure where to find any of the lap times for the 125's but i am eager to know how they stack up also.

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