Why Honda?

drt410
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drt410
Edited Date/Time 9/16/2018 9:57pm
In putting their twin exhausts on the 250f their reasoning in the description said that since they couldnt go out the front of the engine because the frame was in the way they did dual exhausts for the best flow. Ktm/husky have been doing this but they have steel frames. Suzukis 19’ 250 just changed the frame to allow a center port exhaust. Why couldnt Honda just do this vs two entire exhausts. Also why cant Suzukis 450 do this? Or Honda or Kawi... Or anybody else besides yamaha with the reversed exhaust? It seems so simple yet it took until 2019 for Suzuki to do it first on an aluminum framed 250f. Honda was able to do this all the way back on their aluminum framed 2 strokes mind you. Am I missing something here? A side port is never the best flowing so are they just saving this as a future upgrade. Always gotta have potential changes ready so theres something new to add in the future.
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mattyhamz2
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mattyhamz2 9/11/2018 10:41pm
9/11/2018 10:41pm
Why are you asking vital all of these questions? I know we seem like we know everything, but I promise we don’t.
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Mit12
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Mit12 9/11/2018 10:42pm
9/11/2018 10:42pm
One port for each exhaust valve gives better flow. I would say that most Factories stay with single port for cost vs performance gains.
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drt410
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drt410 9/11/2018 10:45pm
9/11/2018 10:45pm
Theres a lot of people here who know random answers to all kinds of things. Someone probably does, so if you dont know just ignore it. My guess would be it changes the frame feel too much so they need time to stiffen it up other places.


Something I just noticed is that yamaha, having no frame in the way, has essentially made an “updraft” exhaust on the 19’. The exhaust port now comes out at an upward angle after going up past the valve, so it doesnt have to turn so much to meet a flat or downward exhaust port. Pretty cool since they dont have the frame in the way.
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kiwifan
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kiwifan 9/12/2018 1:23am
9/12/2018 1:23am
Given Honda have a pretty big R&D budget I am sure that is the best way they could get flow with what they have to work with...like every other manufacturer
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nascarnate326 9/12/2018 3:00am
9/12/2018 3:00am
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much yet everyone has an aftermarket exhaust 6 months after they get a bike anyways.

And yes, I need a new sticker for mine.


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wideopen198 9/12/2018 3:41am
9/12/2018 3:41am
nascarnate326 wrote:
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much...
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much yet everyone has an aftermarket exhaust 6 months after they get a bike anyways.

And yes, I need a new sticker for mine.


I think you missed the point. He's talking about 250f which actually has 2 pipes instead of only 2 mufflers
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UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 9/12/2018 4:00am
9/12/2018 4:00am
The R&D guys had a center port design ready to go until the number crunchers told them it wont work because they are sharing the frame with the 450.

I was told the center port design was a much better motor.
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kb228
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kb228 9/12/2018 4:19am
9/12/2018 4:19am
I wonder the same. Correct me if im wrong but the dyno doesnt provide evidence that dual mufflers or dual full exhausts create any significant power increase over a single. Youre adding way too much weight for no reward. Why doesnt honda use the energy to port their heads from the factory instead of having an entire tooling line to make a left hand pipe?
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ehr400
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ehr400 9/12/2018 5:33am
9/12/2018 5:33am
UpTiTe wrote:
The R&D guys had a center port design ready to go until the number crunchers told them it wont work because they are sharing the frame...
The R&D guys had a center port design ready to go until the number crunchers told them it wont work because they are sharing the frame with the 450.

I was told the center port design was a much better motor.
Might be why the race team seemed to be so far behind the 8 ball coming into the season? Seemed like they were down HP big time coming into SX and outdoors. They made big strides but seemed like for most of the year those guys couldnt get a start.
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H4L
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H4L 9/12/2018 5:44am
9/12/2018 5:44am Edited Date/Time 9/12/2018 5:51am
ehr400 wrote:
Might be why the race team seemed to be so far behind the 8 ball coming into the season? Seemed like they were down HP big...
Might be why the race team seemed to be so far behind the 8 ball coming into the season? Seemed like they were down HP big time coming into SX and outdoors. They made big strides but seemed like for most of the year those guys couldnt get a start.
JM6 seemed like he wasn't down big time on HP in SX / MX.. As with any new model it takes time to develop a bike so the R&D has to be put in by the race teams.
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Steve125
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Steve125 9/12/2018 6:03am
9/12/2018 6:03am
drt410 wrote:
Theres a lot of people here who know random answers to all kinds of things. Someone probably does, so if you dont know just ignore it...
Theres a lot of people here who know random answers to all kinds of things. Someone probably does, so if you dont know just ignore it. My guess would be it changes the frame feel too much so they need time to stiffen it up other places.


Something I just noticed is that yamaha, having no frame in the way, has essentially made an “updraft” exhaust on the 19’. The exhaust port now comes out at an upward angle after going up past the valve, so it doesnt have to turn so much to meet a flat or downward exhaust port. Pretty cool since they dont have the frame in the way.
But then again the Yamaha pipe makes extra corners getting to the back of the bike as it loops around the cylinder.
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UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 9/12/2018 6:13am
9/12/2018 6:13am
UpTiTe wrote:
The R&D guys had a center port design ready to go until the number crunchers told them it wont work because they are sharing the frame...
The R&D guys had a center port design ready to go until the number crunchers told them it wont work because they are sharing the frame with the 450.

I was told the center port design was a much better motor.
ehr400 wrote:
Might be why the race team seemed to be so far behind the 8 ball coming into the season? Seemed like they were down HP big...
Might be why the race team seemed to be so far behind the 8 ball coming into the season? Seemed like they were down HP big time coming into SX and outdoors. They made big strides but seemed like for most of the year those guys couldnt get a start.
Yes, that was the problem.
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UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 9/12/2018 6:15am
9/12/2018 6:15am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Why are you asking vital all of these questions? I know we seem like we know everything, but I promise we don’t.
Because a lot of people who actually know read Vital? But don't really feel the need to post in every thread.
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mattyhamz2
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mattyhamz2 9/12/2018 6:25am
9/12/2018 6:25am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Why are you asking vital all of these questions? I know we seem like we know everything, but I promise we don’t.
UpTiTe wrote:
Because a lot of people who actually know read Vital? But don't really feel the need to post in every thread.
My post was sarcasm since he posted something similar about Suzuki the other day. I probably should have made the sarcasm more clear
UpTiTe
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UpTiTe 9/12/2018 8:08am
9/12/2018 8:08am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Why are you asking vital all of these questions? I know we seem like we know everything, but I promise we don’t.
UpTiTe wrote:
Because a lot of people who actually know read Vital? But don't really feel the need to post in every thread.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
My post was sarcasm since he posted something similar about Suzuki the other day. I probably should have made the sarcasm more clear
Gotcha.
Ozzy
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Ozzy 9/12/2018 8:48am
9/12/2018 8:48am
Fact:
2 is NOT better than 1
2 is NOT quieter than 1
2 DOESN’T make it handle better
What it is:
It’s MORE EXPENSIVE
It’s Smoke & Mirrors
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aroark247
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aroark247 9/12/2018 8:54am
9/12/2018 8:54am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Why are you asking vital all of these questions? I know we seem like we know everything, but I promise we don’t.
The VBT is the place to be, we'll solve all of your financial, marriage and psychological needs.
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Moto96
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Moto96 9/12/2018 8:59am
9/12/2018 8:59am
Looks like a flowmaster, not an FMF. Good grief the size of these fart cans.

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nascarnate326 9/12/2018 10:26am
9/12/2018 10:26am
nascarnate326 wrote:
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much...
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much yet everyone has an aftermarket exhaust 6 months after they get a bike anyways.

And yes, I need a new sticker for mine.


wideopen198 wrote:
I think you missed the point. He's talking about 250f which actually has 2 pipes instead of only 2 mufflers
You are right, I did miss that. Thanks.
soopah noviss 9/12/2018 11:38am
9/12/2018 11:38am
Ozzy wrote:
Fact: 2 is NOT better than 1 2 is NOT quieter than 1 2 DOESN’T make it handle better What it is: It’s MORE EXPENSIVE It’s...
Fact:
2 is NOT better than 1
2 is NOT quieter than 1
2 DOESN’T make it handle better
What it is:
It’s MORE EXPENSIVE
It’s Smoke & Mirrors
So Honda, in their infinite wisdom, has gone the twice pipes route every year (250F) since 2006 save for ‘10-‘13? That’s 10 farkin model years they've somehow justified this design. This isn’t some fad/forgotten technology here. In a highly contested market where even the slightest edge performance wise over the competition can land the manufacturers a larger slice of the overall sales pie, Honda has decided that all that is trumped by the ability to charge the consumer more for the stock exhaust system? I'm not a fan of the dual design either but that reasoning doesn’t make sense.
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jsmi33966
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jsmi33966 9/12/2018 12:02pm
9/12/2018 12:02pm
For the appearance. Honda thinks people will buy the bike because of the look of two pipes coming out the back. The bike is heavier than ktm, husky, kx and historically many other 450s. Why would you want a 250 heavier than a 450 and like 10 less hp?
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jsmi33966
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jsmi33966 9/12/2018 12:04pm
9/12/2018 12:04pm
drt410 wrote:
In putting their twin exhausts on the 250f their reasoning in the description said that since they couldnt go out the front of the engine because...
In putting their twin exhausts on the 250f their reasoning in the description said that since they couldnt go out the front of the engine because the frame was in the way they did dual exhausts for the best flow. Ktm/husky have been doing this but they have steel frames. Suzukis 19’ 250 just changed the frame to allow a center port exhaust. Why couldnt Honda just do this vs two entire exhausts. Also why cant Suzukis 450 do this? Or Honda or Kawi... Or anybody else besides yamaha with the reversed exhaust? It seems so simple yet it took until 2019 for Suzuki to do it first on an aluminum framed 250f. Honda was able to do this all the way back on their aluminum framed 2 strokes mind you. Am I missing something here? A side port is never the best flowing so are they just saving this as a future upgrade. Always gotta have potential changes ready so theres something new to add in the future.
It may not be the best flowing but horsepower is not always the answer. Weight and handling are sometimes more important. That dual exhaust added a lot of weight.
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jsmi33966
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jsmi33966 9/12/2018 12:11pm
9/12/2018 12:11pm
Mit12 wrote:
One port for each exhaust valve gives better flow. I would say that most Factories stay with single port for cost vs performance gains.
What do they have exhaust at all? You could just put a diverter to guide the flame away from your bike. Too much flow is bad for performance. Go put a 450 exhaust on your 250 and see how it runs
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drt410
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drt410 9/12/2018 2:28pm
9/12/2018 2:28pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2018 3:04pm
nascarnate326 wrote:
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much...
Buy the FMF single and go on with your day. It’s just not that big of an issue. I never understand why people care so much yet everyone has an aftermarket exhaust 6 months after they get a bike anyways.

And yes, I need a new sticker for mine.


Whoever said its because the Honda uses the 450 frame your right, thanks. Suzuki now showed it can be done on an aluminum frame so I expect eventually all will have it. Husky, KTM, Suzuki and Yamaha with its rear facing exhaust port all have center port exhausts now. Honda would have to ditch the twin pipes for twin cans, which I dont see them dropping their new design for a little bit since its a new “selling point”, but eventually I can see it. I wonder the improvements 2 exhausts really has, a lot of racing sport bike engines do this too. The Honda didnt make crazy power though and was worse low to mid. They fixed some of this.

That FMF can looks terrible so I see why they go for 2 smaller ones. Also I know mfg’s will wait for other mfg’s to do something until they do it so they have potential changes waiting and they dont run out of things to do. Like the e-start. I definitely expect this to come down the line though absolutely no reason to leave hp on the table especially with 250s. I wonder how much more hp the suzuki has too. Yamaha went further and made an upward exiting exhaust port so it doesnt have to turn as much after the valve. Mirroring the downdraft intake, idk if forward facing exhausts could do this though, but theres a lot of new tech.

downard254
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downard254 9/12/2018 2:57pm
9/12/2018 2:57pm
I wasn’t told anything, so therefor can’t answer any questions.
drt410
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drt410 9/12/2018 3:12pm
9/12/2018 3:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2018 3:15pm



Heres the corner exhaust has to make




If a single could still do this it would be perfect

kiwifan
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kiwifan 9/12/2018 3:26pm
9/12/2018 3:26pm
Ozzy wrote:
Fact: 2 is NOT better than 1 2 is NOT quieter than 1 2 DOESN’T make it handle better What it is: It’s MORE EXPENSIVE It’s...
Fact:
2 is NOT better than 1
2 is NOT quieter than 1
2 DOESN’T make it handle better
What it is:
It’s MORE EXPENSIVE
It’s Smoke & Mirrors
soopah noviss wrote:
So Honda, in their infinite wisdom, has gone the twice pipes route every year (250F) since 2006 save for ‘10-‘13? That’s 10 farkin model years they've...
So Honda, in their infinite wisdom, has gone the twice pipes route every year (250F) since 2006 save for ‘10-‘13? That’s 10 farkin model years they've somehow justified this design. This isn’t some fad/forgotten technology here. In a highly contested market where even the slightest edge performance wise over the competition can land the manufacturers a larger slice of the overall sales pie, Honda has decided that all that is trumped by the ability to charge the consumer more for the stock exhaust system? I'm not a fan of the dual design either but that reasoning doesn’t make sense.
Fair enough

They seem to sell just fine so maybe those buying do not give a damn? Personally I love the design on my 450 (which makes the most HP of any 450 by the way), the mufflers are tucked out of the way, I never damage them unlike those massive singles, it looks cool and I like the weight more centralised ...just my opinion (not asking you to agree with it)
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drt410
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drt410 9/12/2018 3:30pm
9/12/2018 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2018 3:36pm
Yea looking at the FMF single now its toooo huge. They were able to have tiny singles before though. If its a huuuge single or tiny duals ill go duals. They should just go to a center port with 2 cans. Buuuut Id bet the two exhaust ports now is more flow than a single center port anyways and if theyd still do 2 cans on a center port I guess 2 headers is minimal weight gain.

I just wonder why the radical new engine wasnt even better than the old engine the first year. They say more low-mid now for 19’ so thats good if true. Probably because it was the first year, but it was just an all top end motor with lots of over rev, but missing a tonn of low end and mid.

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