Who's closer to a 450 SX title, Yamaha or Suzuki?

AZRider
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AZRider
We know ET3 is close, KTM has done it recently, Husky has done it recently. Honda has a top level rider, so that leaves Yamaha (most recent KTM champs former ride), and Suzuki? Anyone really think Barcia is a title contender? We now know JH46 isn't.
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Isaish305
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Isaish305 5/7/2019 5:35pm
5/7/2019 5:35pm
I think Yamaha. Not with Barcia. I think he can win but I think in the next few years AP can be a title contender. I'm not even sure Suzuki will have a team next year.
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T-Fish
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T-Fish 5/7/2019 5:37pm
5/7/2019 5:37pm
Stewart was the last real chance either of them had, and I don’t see any chance with the riders they both have right now.
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Mace-x
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Mace-x 5/7/2019 5:39pm
5/7/2019 5:39pm
Suzuki can contend for titles, they got a great bike, while Yamaha got deep pockets, if I had to bet to get a good rider on either bike I'd pick the Suzuki to win.
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Sluggo77
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Sluggo77 5/7/2019 5:47pm
5/7/2019 5:47pm
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
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Ranman68
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Ranman68 5/7/2019 6:05pm
5/7/2019 6:05pm
Neither of them will ever win it with the riders they currently have. Of those two brands, the first one who signs a rider who is an elite talent with what it takes to champion, will be the first.
deanwhite51
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deanwhite51 5/7/2019 6:07pm
5/7/2019 6:07pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past 3 years. its nothing to do with the bike or having that edge. i wouldn't even call it an advantage. especially when you look at the 250 class. when was the last time a KTM or Husky won a 250 title? Especially with KTM struggling with there chassi's. You have Webb having to add more material to his frame and the lites riders for KTM using older frames...

Its more the mental program that KTM has. If you listen the the latest PULP MX show with reed, he talks about this exact topic.
Its more to do with the people your around then, then Bike. And Decosta has done a hell of a job getting that team to where it is today.
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Rushton597 5/7/2019 6:07pm
5/7/2019 6:07pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
Yamaha and Honda took 250 sx titles this year on aluminum frames. Don't let that orange Kool-Aid poison your brain.
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Frank
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Frank 5/7/2019 6:10pm
5/7/2019 6:10pm
It does not even matter. Honda has not won a 450 title in 15+ years and is fine not doing so.
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BobPA
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BobPA 5/7/2019 6:21pm
5/7/2019 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 5/7/2019 6:22pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
deanwhite51 wrote:
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past...
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past 3 years. its nothing to do with the bike or having that edge. i wouldn't even call it an advantage. especially when you look at the 250 class. when was the last time a KTM or Husky won a 250 title? Especially with KTM struggling with there chassi's. You have Webb having to add more material to his frame and the lites riders for KTM using older frames...

Its more the mental program that KTM has. If you listen the the latest PULP MX show with reed, he talks about this exact topic.
Its more to do with the people your around then, then Bike. And Decosta has done a hell of a job getting that team to where it is today.
ZachO sure made the steel chassis look like shit on the little bikes....

He won an SX championship last year, had the points lead outdoors until injury...year before that he won indoors and out...ya know facts bro.
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Moto Obsessed 5/7/2019 6:25pm
5/7/2019 6:25pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
Hot take bro (no, seriously)... I hear ya and all... but... if "reasons KTM/Husky has won 5 straight SX titles" was a pie chart - I'm really not so sure the steel frame is over 51% of that pie chart - let alone the whole damn thing.

Aside from the many other aspects of R&D that have led to their success, there's that DeCoster guy... oh and Baker dude. Think Coop wins the title if he was still training with Swannie? My money is on no. Who was next in line? an aluminum framed bike.

Bottom line - KTM's success is due to a number of factors and a number of people - not just the steel frame. But everyone is certainly welcome to their opinion Smile (and I'm a KTM guy for what it's worth)
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Airick
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Airick 5/7/2019 6:27pm
5/7/2019 6:27pm
Yamadog, Ferandis. Maybe spelling...
Moto Obsessed 5/7/2019 6:27pm
5/7/2019 6:27pm
doesn't matter how much they make if they aren't investing it in championship caliber motocross riders - which is the only thing relevant to this conversation
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Mm471
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Mm471 5/7/2019 6:29pm
5/7/2019 6:29pm
I think Ktm/Huskyhas shown any team can come out and win whether it’s going out and getting bike development and management with Decoster, and getting talent either proven(Dungey) or a rider who needs a clean slate(Webb/Osborne)
deanwhite51
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deanwhite51 5/7/2019 6:30pm
5/7/2019 6:30pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
deanwhite51 wrote:
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past...
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past 3 years. its nothing to do with the bike or having that edge. i wouldn't even call it an advantage. especially when you look at the 250 class. when was the last time a KTM or Husky won a 250 title? Especially with KTM struggling with there chassi's. You have Webb having to add more material to his frame and the lites riders for KTM using older frames...

Its more the mental program that KTM has. If you listen the the latest PULP MX show with reed, he talks about this exact topic.
Its more to do with the people your around then, then Bike. And Decosta has done a hell of a job getting that team to where it is today.
BobPA wrote:
ZachO sure made the steel chassis look like shit on the little bikes.... He won an SX championship last year, had the points lead outdoors until...
ZachO sure made the steel chassis look like shit on the little bikes....

He won an SX championship last year, had the points lead outdoors until injury...year before that he won indoors and out...ya know facts bro.
sorry Bro..My bad.. Must of been the frame that caused Osbourne to have that crash.
BobPA
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BobPA 5/7/2019 6:46pm
5/7/2019 6:46pm
deanwhite51 wrote:
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past...
I get the aspect your coming from.. But to me that doesn't make sense.. when you have an Alloy frame wining the most races the past 3 years. its nothing to do with the bike or having that edge. i wouldn't even call it an advantage. especially when you look at the 250 class. when was the last time a KTM or Husky won a 250 title? Especially with KTM struggling with there chassi's. You have Webb having to add more material to his frame and the lites riders for KTM using older frames...

Its more the mental program that KTM has. If you listen the the latest PULP MX show with reed, he talks about this exact topic.
Its more to do with the people your around then, then Bike. And Decosta has done a hell of a job getting that team to where it is today.
BobPA wrote:
ZachO sure made the steel chassis look like shit on the little bikes.... He won an SX championship last year, had the points lead outdoors until...
ZachO sure made the steel chassis look like shit on the little bikes....

He won an SX championship last year, had the points lead outdoors until injury...year before that he won indoors and out...ya know facts bro.
deanwhite51 wrote:
sorry Bro..My bad.. Must of been the frame that caused Osbourne to have that crash.
Not sure what you are implying? You are just deferring from the fact your argument has been blown apart, by a far superior Vital member I might add.
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racinstation
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racinstation 5/7/2019 6:46pm
5/7/2019 6:46pm
It all depends on who either team signs during the off season. Right now Plessinger or Barcia would be much higher on the likelyhood tree than Reed or Hill.
HusqFan3
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HusqFan3 5/7/2019 7:03pm
5/7/2019 7:03pm Edited Date/Time 5/7/2019 7:05pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Hot take bro (no, seriously)... I hear ya and all... but... if "reasons KTM/Husky has won 5 straight SX titles" was a pie chart - I'm...
Hot take bro (no, seriously)... I hear ya and all... but... if "reasons KTM/Husky has won 5 straight SX titles" was a pie chart - I'm really not so sure the steel frame is over 51% of that pie chart - let alone the whole damn thing.

Aside from the many other aspects of R&D that have led to their success, there's that DeCoster guy... oh and Baker dude. Think Coop wins the title if he was still training with Swannie? My money is on no. Who was next in line? an aluminum framed bike.

Bottom line - KTM's success is due to a number of factors and a number of people - not just the steel frame. But everyone is certainly welcome to their opinion Smile (and I'm a KTM guy for what it's worth)
News flash: the rider = 95% of the pie chart so that leaves a maximum of 5% for every other factor involved. Being generous I’d guess the material composition of the frame = > .1%

If all the factory riders switched bikes at random with privateers 5min before the race, I’d be willing to bet $$$ the finishing order would look similar to any other race...

As such, the answer to the OP’s question is frankly neither. The first one to win a championship will be whomever hires a championship level rider first...
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Patrick Potato 5/7/2019 7:08pm
5/7/2019 7:08pm
Suzuki can’t even afford to run their own team or pay win bonuses so they’re probably happy they don’t have any riders capable of winning.
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Sluggo77
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Sluggo77 5/7/2019 7:21pm
5/7/2019 7:21pm Edited Date/Time 5/7/2019 7:22pm
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
Moto Obsessed wrote:
Hot take bro (no, seriously)... I hear ya and all... but... if "reasons KTM/Husky has won 5 straight SX titles" was a pie chart - I'm...
Hot take bro (no, seriously)... I hear ya and all... but... if "reasons KTM/Husky has won 5 straight SX titles" was a pie chart - I'm really not so sure the steel frame is over 51% of that pie chart - let alone the whole damn thing.

Aside from the many other aspects of R&D that have led to their success, there's that DeCoster guy... oh and Baker dude. Think Coop wins the title if he was still training with Swannie? My money is on no. Who was next in line? an aluminum framed bike.

Bottom line - KTM's success is due to a number of factors and a number of people - not just the steel frame. But everyone is certainly welcome to their opinion Smile (and I'm a KTM guy for what it's worth)
HusqFan3 wrote:
News flash: the rider = 95% of the pie chart so that leaves a maximum of 5% for every other factor involved. Being generous I’d guess...
News flash: the rider = 95% of the pie chart so that leaves a maximum of 5% for every other factor involved. Being generous I’d guess the material composition of the frame = > .1%

If all the factory riders switched bikes at random with privateers 5min before the race, I’d be willing to bet $$$ the finishing order would look similar to any other race...

As such, the answer to the OP’s question is frankly neither. The first one to win a championship will be whomever hires a championship level rider first...
I didn't say it was all or even 51% of the equation so??? I am referring to the 450 SX class only, at the Factory level, where all other factors being almost perfect and equal. The handling edge is what gives them an advantage, relatively speaking. The thing turns on dim and appears damn easy to ride fast. That is a big deal for SX. It maybe 3% or whatever, but that is enough, at least for the last 5 titles. I have to admit Baker kinda screws up my point, as he was the trainer for all those championships, so...yeah whatever. Tongue On the other hand, Eli has a bad ass trainer as well, so it is 100% the Kawi's fault! lol
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reded
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reded 5/7/2019 8:01pm
5/7/2019 8:01pm
It’s obvious that Suzuki doesn’t give a shit if they win, lose or even show up but Yamaha has put a lot of R&D dollars into their 450 over the last 9yrs only to come up empty handed with guys who were championship caliber riders.

Something is amiss with their program, whether it be the bike or the mindset of everyone involved. KTM found a way to get Webb squared away when it seemed like he was headed down the wrong path for the last couple of years.
malachi177
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malachi177 5/7/2019 9:16pm
5/7/2019 9:16pm
Patrick Potato wrote:
Suzuki can’t even afford to run their own team or pay win bonuses so they’re probably happy they don’t have any riders capable of winning.
Dumb dumb alertPinch
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2WheelsForTheMasses 5/7/2019 9:30pm
5/7/2019 9:30pm
Mace-x wrote:
Suzuki can contend for titles, they got a great bike, while Yamaha got deep pockets, if I had to bet to get a good rider on...
Suzuki can contend for titles, they got a great bike, while Yamaha got deep pockets, if I had to bet to get a good rider on either bike I'd pick the Suzuki to win.
Yamaha has deep pockets?????

Bro, Suzuki as a company has more money than yamaha and kawasaki combined.

Suzuki motorcycles has been in development on something rather large for the past few years. This is where their money is going too.
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 5/7/2019 9:32pm
5/7/2019 9:32pm
I think Suzuki, with Reed ,Hill and savatgy.
haydos25
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haydos25 5/7/2019 9:42pm
5/7/2019 9:42pm
2WheelsForTheMasses wrote:
Yamaha has deep pockets????? Bro, Suzuki as a company has more money than yamaha and kawasaki combined. Suzuki motorcycles has been in development on something rather...
Yamaha has deep pockets?????

Bro, Suzuki as a company has more money than yamaha and kawasaki combined.

Suzuki motorcycles has been in development on something rather large for the past few years. This is where their money is going too.
The RM125 Alu frame conversion kit right?? I knew we could get this around to a 2tvs4t debate evntually LaughingLaughingTongueTongue
Greg #49
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Greg #49 5/8/2019 4:43am
5/8/2019 4:43am
Doesn't matter which bike it is, if Yamaha or Suzuki can get a rider training with Aldon Baker then they will become a contender. I think Aldon could train Mickey Mouse on a Hodaka " Super Rat" and he could win.
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MXVet261
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MXVet261 5/8/2019 6:24am
5/8/2019 6:24am
I think the real conversation is when is the mighty CRF450 finally going to get a Supercross title? That is the elephant in the room.

RMZ, KXF, YZF, KTM have multiple 450 SX titles under their belts. Even Husqvarna now has a 450 SX title!

The Honda CRF450 was introduced in 2002 but has never won the SX title, 17 years and counting. This is a huge monkey on their back.
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GrayB163
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GrayB163 5/8/2019 7:59am
5/8/2019 7:59am
Sluggo77 wrote:
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage...
This will be unpopular but I would bet no aluminum framed bike ever wins another SX title. The KTM/Husky bikes have too much of an advantage in SX. It's not a huge advantage, but it is enough at the pro SX level to make the difference.
Kaw and Honda have the 2 stud riders, KR and Tomac, and even they can't do it.
ever watched a 250 race?
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