When does OEM suspension surpass Factory?

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11/24/2017 5:38 AM

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

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11/24/2017 5:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/24/2017 6:07 AM

Aren't the Showa forks on the CRF and RMZ 450 "old" kit forks without the coatings?

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11/24/2017 6:06 AM

There's no "standard" or universal measuring stick for rating suspension, it typically boils down to rider preference. Therefore, you'll need to define what you consider "BETTER".

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Retired Mechanical Engineer, published technical writer, mscperformance.com, Bisimotoengineering.com,

11/24/2017 6:12 AM

You'll hear both sides of the debate, I'm sure.
People spend $3000+ on an old set of used A-kit they know nothing about the history, then have to send them out to be set up, re-sprung, valved etc.
Its likely their newer stock stuff can be set up really well for a fraction of the cost.

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

11/24/2017 6:17 AM

My favorite is when people send off their suspension on a bike they have never ridden.

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much ty. How to spot a paid forum poster/artificial forum traffic producer (see list of actions/phrases below):

Copius pattern amounts of phrases like “Anyone have”..., “Anybody know?”.... and their variations.

Thoughts?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance!





11/24/2017 6:35 AM

kzizok wrote:

My favorite is when people send off their suspension on a bike they have never ridden.

Haha i agree. It takes multiple hours for new suspension to break in properly(at least that is what i have experienced). I felt like the difference from 0-5h was surprisingly big with my 17 KTM when i got it, it took about 5 hours of riding to break it in.

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11/24/2017 6:39 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

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11/24/2017 6:41 AM

Motofinne wrote:

Haha i agree. It takes multiple hours for new suspension to break in properly(at least that is what i have experienced). I felt like the difference from 0-5h was surprisingly big with my 17 KTM when i got it, it took about 5 hours of riding to break it in.

Just out of curiosity, what parts on the suspension do you think need breaking in ?

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11/24/2017 7:08 AM

kzizok wrote:

My favorite is when people send off their suspension on a bike they have never ridden.

Motofinne wrote:

Haha i agree. It takes multiple hours for new suspension to break in properly(at least that is what i have experienced). I felt like the difference from 0-5h was surprisingly big with my 17 KTM when i got it, it took about 5 hours of riding to break it in.

langhammx wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what parts on the suspension do you think need breaking in ?

Shock piston and fork damping rod piston bands. Some tuners will actually manipulate and cause a bit of wear to shock piston bands to create a different feel.

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11/24/2017 7:08 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

It depends on what you mean better.

Stock stuff will never have the close tolerances or adjustability factory stuff have.

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11/24/2017 7:31 AM

Motofinne wrote:

Haha i agree. It takes multiple hours for new suspension to break in properly(at least that is what i have experienced). I felt like the difference from 0-5h was surprisingly big with my 17 KTM when i got it, it took about 5 hours of riding to break it in.

langhammx wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what parts on the suspension do you think need breaking in ?

ML512 wrote:

Shock piston and fork damping rod piston bands. Some tuners will actually manipulate and cause a bit of wear to shock piston bands to create a different feel.

My dad was good friends with Stig Peterson and Stig would tell him not to bring down any suspension to him until my dad had put 5-10 hours on the suspension first. Wil down at enzo recommended the same thing as well.

My thing has always been if you take it down and have it set up before ever riding it, how do you know what it did well and what it did bad? All things you'll be asked when getting your suspension done..

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hammerfamily_4 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

11/24/2017 8:05 AM

langhammx wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what parts on the suspension do you think need breaking in ?

ML512 wrote:

Shock piston and fork damping rod piston bands. Some tuners will actually manipulate and cause a bit of wear to shock piston bands to create a different feel.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

My dad was good friends with Stig Peterson and Stig would tell him not to bring down any suspension to him until my dad had put 5-10 hours on the suspension first. Wil down at enzo recommended the same thing as well.

My thing has always been if you take it down and have it set up before ever riding it, how do you know what it did well and what it did bad? All things you'll be asked when getting your suspension done..

Are all riders same weight, height, skill level?

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11/24/2017 8:14 AM

ML512 wrote:

Shock piston and fork damping rod piston bands. Some tuners will actually manipulate and cause a bit of wear to shock piston bands to create a different feel.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

My dad was good friends with Stig Peterson and Stig would tell him not to bring down any suspension to him until my dad had put 5-10 hours on the suspension first. Wil down at enzo recommended the same thing as well.

My thing has always been if you take it down and have it set up before ever riding it, how do you know what it did well and what it did bad? All things you'll be asked when getting your suspension done..

mxb2 wrote:

Are all riders same weight, height, skill level?

of course not. And I never said they were

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hammerfamily_4 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

11/24/2017 8:27 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

My dad was good friends with Stig Peterson and Stig would tell him not to bring down any suspension to him until my dad had put 5-10 hours on the suspension first. Wil down at enzo recommended the same thing as well.

My thing has always been if you take it down and have it set up before ever riding it, how do you know what it did well and what it did bad? All things you'll be asked when getting your suspension done..

mxb2 wrote:

Are all riders same weight, height, skill level?

mattyhamz2 wrote:

of course not. And I never said they were

How can you tell what the suspension will do ,without at least the correct spring rate and sag? So to a point, it needs a few things before ridden.

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11/24/2017 9:22 AM

Hijacked. Sigh.

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11/24/2017 9:23 AM

Motofinne wrote:

Aren't the Showa forks on the CRF and RMZ 450 "old" kit forks without the coatings?

Question is... how old?

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11/24/2017 9:27 AM

Let's say you have a new CRF450R. You send your stuff off to a solid-capable suspension company...

You get good metallurgical coatings/treatments, correct valving and spring rates...maybe some new internals that're actually based in the current kit "mentality"...

Then you go out and dial it in. Maybe you even go out with a good suspension tech and really work at it...

Do you think you can get your bike working as good or better than the "kit stuff"? Do you think you can get comparable performance WITHOUT spending anywhere near as much money?

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

11/24/2017 9:31 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

Hijacked. Sigh.

To answer your question, I bet the suspension on a KTM 50 works better than what Roger raced with in those early days so yeah, there is a point. Would be near impossible to actually pin point but with some research you could get in the ball park. Watch some old videos and you'll get some idea

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11/24/2017 9:33 AM

Motofinne wrote:

Haha i agree. It takes multiple hours for new suspension to break in properly(at least that is what i have experienced). I felt like the difference from 0-5h was surprisingly big with my 17 KTM when i got it, it took about 5 hours of riding to break it in.

langhammx wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what parts on the suspension do you think need breaking in ?

ML512 wrote:

Shock piston and fork damping rod piston bands. Some tuners will actually manipulate and cause a bit of wear to shock piston bands to create a different feel.

Shims also loose some tension from repeated bending

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11/24/2017 9:37 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

mxb2 wrote:

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

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11/24/2017 9:39 AM

Motofinne wrote:

Aren't the Showa forks on the CRF and RMZ 450 "old" kit forks without the coatings?

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

Question is... how old?

I'm sure ML has the answer to that.

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11/24/2017 9:40 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

mxb2 wrote:

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

How many YEARS do you have figuring out, modifying and tuning the '08?

Now, let's ask the same questions about the '18...

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

11/24/2017 9:54 AM

mxb2 wrote:

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

TeamGreen wrote:

How many YEARS do you have figuring out, modifying and tuning the '08?

Now, let's ask the same questions about the '18...

My 08 is still stock minus kit suspension that I put on 5 years ago. Didn't need any figuring out with the 08. Does everything great. My 18 suspension is getting revalved now because the forks blow chunks and are far worse than the stock 08 forks. Also bought a wifi com tuner to get the shit roll on power smother. The 18 will take more figuring out for sure. Both are very good and not really better than one another though. But to answer the ops question I don't think stock suspension is getting any better on new scoots. The stock suspension on my 2006 Yz was far superior to the 16 ktm I just sold. Also the forks on my 2000 cr 250 were better than the stock forks on my 18 crf. But it's all my opinion and I could feel different than 90% of folks.

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11/24/2017 10:04 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

mxb2 wrote:

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

Just my opinion, and I have ridden most newer bikes, and owned a 07 crf, rode a friend's 08. I guess the newer bikes feel lighter, slimmer .Imo. No comparison to the new Fe ktms. Way better.

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11/24/2017 10:50 AM

mxb2 wrote:

The newer bikes are better than the 08 crf450.

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

mxb2 wrote:

Just my opinion, and I have ridden most newer bikes, and owned a 07 crf, rode a friend's 08. I guess the newer bikes feel lighter, slimmer .Imo. No comparison to the new Fe ktms. Way better.

And I didn't like my 16 ktm at all. Lol Strange how people like different feels.

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11/24/2017 11:00 AM

Jeff_Crutcher wrote:

I was looking at a photo of Ben Townley’s 2004 125sx, and moreover eyeballing the fork and shock equipment.

In retrograde, when does OEM surpass Factory? Example: is my 17 WP Aer stock setup better than say, the 2010 factory cone valve?

I know there will be a few comments of “nobody will ever beat the 2008 Honda 450 yada yada yada”. That’s not the point..

I gaze upon old factory equipment with lustful eyes, but it makes me wonder if my bike comes with better equipment than Townley had in 2004? Feel pretty cool to think of having better suspenders than someone of that speed... in retrograde.

Thoughts?

UpTiTe wrote:

It depends on what you mean better.

Stock stuff will never have the close tolerances or adjustability factory stuff have.

I think the continued belief of this is laughable.

The real magic behind works suspension is development team behind it to come up with creative solutions to specific rider issues.
Anyone remember grant Langston running essentially production forks on his outdoor Yamaha?

Vuilleman stated clearly on pulp he ran a box stock yz250 shock outdoors vs his works option one year.

The tolerances in a set of come valve forks and production wp forks are identical. Kyb "kit suspension" has the same parts and pieces as production stuff.

The price and "allure" of having kit stuff is 90 percent of what makes it "seem better"

the ignorance in the US about suspension is ridiculous...and it's sad the mags don't help the consumer understand more. It seems basic physics class 101 is lost on most people... there is no free lunch.

You have about 12 inches of travel to accomplish what you want. You can manipulate the damping curve anyway you please if you can dream up the method to do so, but you are limited to these 12 inches. A 13 inch bump becomes a jump no matter how you slice it... and depending on the sprung weight to unprung weight ratio... smaller bumps than 12 become jumps too if you wish to maintain chassis control. Dirtbikes are very challenging for suspension because you must control the chassis motion by being grossly over damped for bump response... so we end up comprimised with not enough chassis damping but a little too much bump damping.

Sx leans heavily on chassis damping control, with fork valving settings that can be 200 percent stiffer than outdoor settings...

Outdoors leans on bump response but when the tracks add big jumps and large whoops you must find a compromise. It's a reason many pro riders run much more fork spring rate at 155-160 Lbs than a 200 lb vet often. Helps chassis control with minimal penalty in bumps and the team will rework the chassis to work well with the less sag.



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11/24/2017 11:51 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/24/2017 2:11 PM

I will reshim my brand new forks and shock before ever riding them.

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11/24/2017 12:34 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/24/2017 12:35 PM

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

mxb2 wrote:

Just my opinion, and I have ridden most newer bikes, and owned a 07 crf, rode a friend's 08. I guess the newer bikes feel lighter, slimmer .Imo. No comparison to the new Fe ktms. Way better.

JWACK wrote:

And I didn't like my 16 ktm at all. Lol Strange how people like different feels.

Agreed, different strokes for different folks. I was talking about. 16.5 Fe and newer with the improved air forks.

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11/24/2017 12:46 PM

mxb2 wrote:

Just my opinion, and I have ridden most newer bikes, and owned a 07 crf, rode a friend's 08. I guess the newer bikes feel lighter, slimmer .Imo. No comparison to the new Fe ktms. Way better.

JWACK wrote:

And I didn't like my 16 ktm at all. Lol Strange how people like different feels.

mxb2 wrote:

Agreed, different strokes for different folks. I was talking about. 16.5 Fe and newer with the improved air forks.

I even tried full ohlins on my ktm to get the "feel" I wanted.. Still a no. Good bikes no doubt though. Photo

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11/24/2017 12:53 PM

JWACK wrote:

No not really.... I have an 18 Honda and a 08 Honda. The 08 is as good as my 18. And I'm speaking with facts since I own both. The 18 is faster. But not better.

lol please.

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Not much to say to Vitards.