What's the point with the 450 class?

And what is the price tag on one of those 250f engines that can compete with a 450 when it comes to holeshots and stuff? And how reliable is it? If anything, I think if you are on to something, it's the other way around.

Our sport is dying because it gets more and more expensive every day.

hate to say it, but we need to start banning some of the technical stuff on the bikes before they become space ships.

Ride Red with the new Honda rig. No replacement for displacement!


[LINK TO IMAGE]

the point is...there is no point...
time for da' chicago bearz......

Starvin_Martin wrote:

And what is the price tag on one of those 250f engines that can compete with a 450 when it comes to holeshots and stuff? And how reliable is it? If anything, I think if you are on to something, it's the other way around.

Our sport is dying because it gets more and more expensive every day.

hate to say it, but we need to start banning some of the technical stuff on the bikes before they become space ships.

Good point. I don't know how much difference a 250F PC bike with another 3-5 hp (?) will do for a rider at this level, they talk about engines a lot, maybe you need to tons of money to make it good enough? But I remember seeing Roczen being competitive on his 125 2011 that one race, and that bike wasn't even a factory KTM, Stewart beating them all on a 125 comes to mind as well, I don't know how much it cost to have a 250 team compared to a 450 team, I don't know what parts needs to be change more often on a 250F compared to a 450. I know people say a 450 needs to be worked with to be competitive, meanwhile the same guy get's beat by a 250f rider.

I figured a team that will field a 250F and a 125 will at least reduce cost not having a 450, and teams that are 450 teams now, might find a way in the 125 class. I figure we will have half the valves running around, which in my book must reduce costs in the long run?

But I'm totally clueless. I don't like watching the 450 class. The bikes are boring, sounds horrible, and people run around in third gear basically all day while being at risk to be catapulted at the wrong point with more power and weight they need.

I think people have said more than once, the 250 class is more fun to watch, more stacked, more riders being able to win, more revving, more rubbing, bikes are being pushed in a safer way.

But again I know shit, just that I enjoy so much more watching fast riders on 125s than on 450s.

It's not a matter of money or lap times. It takes more skills and fitness to keep a 450 pinned for a whole compared to a 250F. A harder task requires better riders. That's why the 450 class is the premier class. To me it makes sense.

Sheriff245 wrote:

It's not a matter of money or lap times. It takes more skills and fitness to keep a 450 pinned for a whole compared to a 250F. A harder task requires better riders. That's why the 450 class is the premier class. To me it makes sense.

That's why the 500 class was the premier class as well. Well at least until it wasn't. 1990 here we come...

The best riders on the best bikes. Makes sense to me.

dazzlindino wrote:

the point is...there is no point...
time for da' chicago bearz......

your bears and Cutler can suck it

dazzlindino wrote:

the point is...there is no point...
time for da' chicago bearz......

peelout wrote:

your bears and Cutler can suck it

woo...one day she b a cougah...me likey.....

AMA 250 class and mx1 gps are the best races, both classes are stacked, mx2 and AMA 450 classes are shit, as soon as herlings or poto get to the front the race is over

GrapeApe wrote:

The best riders on the best bikes. Makes sense to me.

Best bikes for a sumo wrestler doing tractor pulling sure... Barcia felt the 450 was the lesser weapon this weekend, I wonder if these classes rode together more often, would this excuse also be heard in the same manner?

By now, I thought people would use common sense and at least start doubting more power don't necessary rules, since it also adds over more weight, gyro, more work for the suspension...

But I know some people feel the "need" of a 400 hp pick up to haul their scooters around...

There will nevernever be a change in AMA motocross and or supercross.

so doc... what is your take on Jonny O beating all the 500's on a 125 in 86 I believe? was it any different back then in the glory days? I keep making this point and no one seems to get it for some reason, the smaller boar bikes are faster overall due to the fact they don't have as much HP/Torque and need to maintain much more momentum around the track... ergo their lap times are similar and most the time faster than the larger bore bikes.

do you guys even ride?

I don't understand the confusion?

very few ppl in the world can ride a factory 250 at the speed of the top 450s.

bvm111 wrote:

so doc... what is your take on Jonny O beating all the 500's on a 125 in 86 I believe? was it any different back then in the glory days? I keep making this point and no one seems to get it for some reason, the smaller boar bikes are faster overall due to the fact they don't have as much HP/Torque and need to maintain much more momentum around the track... ergo their lap times are similar and most the time faster than the larger bore bikes.

do you guys even ride?

I don't understand the confusion?

AMEN!!

Bring back small bores and bring back MOTOCROSS! We miss it!

I was too young to understand why the 500 class went away when it did.. NOW I get it. I hope the 450cc motocross bike suffers the same fate when the AMA dissolves the displacement advantage for 4-strokes.

..but most will say I'm dreaming.. One can only hope.

I have a solution, 1 350 class. Everybody wins! Less R and D and less sponsored riders mean cheaper bikes for us construction workers. It's hard to spend $10,000 on a dirt bike that your eventually going to destroy.

Starvin_Martin wrote:

And what is the price tag on one of those 250f engines that can compete with a 450 when it comes to holeshots and stuff? And how reliable is it? If anything, I think if you are on to something, it's the other way around.

Our sport is dying because it gets more and more expensive every day.

hate to say it, but we need to start banning some of the technical stuff on the bikes before they become space ships.

If 250 2strokes were allowed to compete it wouldn't have to be so expensive.

Starvin_Martin wrote:

And what is the price tag on one of those 250f engines that can compete with a 450 when it comes to holeshots and stuff? And how reliable is it? If anything, I think if you are on to something, it's the other way around.

Our sport is dying because it gets more and more expensive every day.

hate to say it, but we need to start banning some of the technical stuff on the bikes before they become space ships.

nytsmaC wrote:

If 250 2strokes were allowed to compete it wouldn't have to be so expensive.

Essentially what would most likely happen is you'd have no 125 class. 250 2 strokes would rule the 250cc class so we'd have to add back in a 125cc class. The 450cc class would probably suffer from the same issues it does now.. overpowered bikes and everything already mentioned.. boring racing..

I find it much more exciting to see riders on "under-powered" machines having to get creative to find speed, traction, momentum. 450 4-stroke class ruined that part of racing.. and it's all but lost even in the 250's with how good these 250F's are.

People keep dropping the saying, "don't let MX turn into F1." Well that's rather paradoxical isn't it. The new MX machines have become technological marvels, despite the production rule, not unlike F1 cars. However, F1 has been through more restrictions to slow the cars down, etc. Motocross on the other hand.. well like the consensus in the thread.. more power isn't making the sport any safer, the technology isn't making it any cheaper, and the racing seems to be suffering too! Why not bring the displacement rules back into perspective!

I say we keep the 250F and 450F classes but we add a 300cc smoker class This will allow Mfg.s that are not part of the US nationals like TM, Beta, Husky as well as KTM, Yamaha and Service Honda to show there bikes. There will be no homoligation rules just weight limits displacement limits and sound levels. This will allow privateers to showcase there ability while not being mired mid pack against the factory riders.

To keep costs in check a claiming rule will be in place. Any rider that finishes on the lead lap can claim one of the top 3 bikes for a set $ amount. This will keep cost in check as if a rider that spends big bucks on A-Kit suspension, port work, oversized radiators, handmade pipes, Etc. If a rider has his bike claimed they can refuse to hand over the bike if he is willing to pay the claiming price + 50%. Also there will be no factory sponsored teams so KTM, Yamaha, Etc. cannot have a paid 2 stroke rider. The same for aftermarket teams PC, FMF, are not allowed to enter riders but they can still support and sponsor riders in this class.

With this in place we all win as it lowers the cost for the privateers and gives them a second stepping stone to make it to factory support in the 4 stroke classes. It also gives the fans more racing action for there ticket price. Gives bike manufactures incentive to start producing 2 strokes again and allow Joe average rider an option to have a new bike that does not have the high prices and maintenance needs that the 4 strokes require. It will also bring in more customers to the dealers.

I agree with Doc. I have a hard time understanding why some guys step up and defend the current rules. We are consumers of bikes and Entertainment. In this case he has a point that more powerful bikes doesn't translate into quicker lap times, or more entertaining racing. Why defend that? Do we like it more dangerous and spread out? If so why don't let them run a race one and one naked on a GSXR1000 on a supercrosstrack while under fire from a Kalasjnikov? Make the bikes extremely expensive while at it.

The race of a lifetime would be to see all the best of the current riders go at each other on standard 125's or 250's of whatever stroke. Ken De Dycker might feel different, but besides him you know I am right, admit it!

It's the manufacturers problem if their target audience isn't happy with what they offer. A big problem by the way...

GIVE ME...ENTERTAINMENT!

bvm111 wrote:

so doc... what is your take on Jonny O beating all the 500's on a 125 in 86 I believe? was it any different back then in the glory days? I keep making this point and no one seems to get it for some reason, the smaller boar bikes are faster overall due to the fact they don't have as much HP/Torque and need to maintain much more momentum around the track... ergo their lap times are similar and most the time faster than the larger bore bikes.

do you guys even ride?

I don't understand the confusion?

If I remember right, when Stewart rode the Kawasaki KX125 back in the good days, he was pulling the fastest lap times of anyone (125's and 250's) at main events. And just this past summer, the 250F's class front runners were pulling the same lap times if not faster when compared to the 450F's. Goes to show its not all about power. Proves your point.

Ive seen it and often wondered why no one else seems to talk about it...

Also to the OP, I understand where you are coming from. Racers, promoters, sponsors, and the Jap brands all sell the 450 at the priemere price, the more races that are won,the more the promoters promote the 450 class along with the sponsors and riders, more consumers go out and are pressured or made to believe the 450 is the bike to have. Its the most expenisive of all the MX bikes, Kawi, suz, yam, and Honda are not going to stop pushing the R&D on them as long as they are making so much off them.

So the point of the 450 class is to sell the most expensive dirt bike that the big brands build. IMO

I'm a big 2stroke guy and I own two of them but I think even if they tried to "even" the playing field, making larger 2strokes legal would be a negative.

My dream would be 150cc and 300cc or so... but I still don't like bikes as large as 450s for racing in general. Maybe thats because I'm not a big guy either haha

newmann wrote:

Ride Red with the new Honda rig. No replacement for displacement!


[LINK TO IMAGE]

LOL... we have that poster on the wall at work .... we make loads of bits for it.


a 450 will run all year , stock , on oil changes and be enough for 90% of riders , and too much for 50% of those, a 250 will not pull a greasy stick out of a dogs arse in stock form , and are just too much like hard work to ride .

seth505 wrote:

I'm a big 2stroke guy and I own two of them but I think even if they tried to "even" the playing field, making larger 2strokes legal would be a negative.

My dream would be 150cc and 300cc or so... but I still don't like bikes as large as 450s for racing in general. Maybe thats because I'm not a big guy either haha

And as much as I hate it, I think the EPA was a huge weight bearing pressure on the big brands.
But to debate that, look at Yamaha and KTM, they both still push out two stroke big bikes...although there hasnt been much R&D from the Yamaha for the past several years...But I did buy a 2013 Yamaha YZ125 and love it so much more than my 250F.

Its also interesting that Yamaha GYTR sells a 144 kit...I hope they are tracking how many are sold and may bring that up to the big wigs who make decisions on funding at Yamaha.

newmann wrote:

Ride Red with the new Honda rig. No replacement for displacement!


[LINK TO IMAGE]

philG wrote:

LOL... we have that poster on the wall at work .... we make loads of bits for it.


a 450 will run all year , stock , on oil changes and be enough for 90% of riders , and too much for 50% of those, a 250 will not pull a greasy stick out of a dogs arse in stock form , and are just too much like hard work to ride .

god forbid mx should be "hard work"