What would it take to get TM into Pro AMA Moto?

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8/16/2018 7:23 PM

How many bikes are they currently importing? How many more would they need to meet the minimums?

I think it'd be great to have another factory in the mix and the opportunity for more factory spots. It seems you see some TM's in the am ranks so are they going to possibly make a push to race in the US eventually?

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8/16/2018 7:26 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2018 7:27 PM

ga_pike wrote:

How many bikes are they currently importing? How many more would they need to meet the minimums?

I think it'd be great to have another factory in the mix and the opportunity for more factory spots. It seems you see some TM's in the am ranks so are they going to possibly make a push to race in the US eventually?

for them to import 400 bikes of the models they want to race, fill out the paperwork, pay the fee, and they are racing,

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8/16/2018 7:31 PM

Unfortunately the 250 and 450 four strokes are the least popular of all TM's in the USA. Actually, I think the fact that only Yamaha and KTM / white KTM sell two strokes has a lot to do with why we are seeing more TM's show up on the amateur level.

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8/16/2018 7:32 PM

Takes $ to make $- If they want to grow, exposure is the best way.

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Current rides-
1988 RM250
2019 KX450

8/16/2018 7:34 PM

Would they sell another 800 bikes, ^4 strokes, by racing the 250 and 450 classes here? I doubt it.

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8/16/2018 7:44 PM

Having Max Nagl racing and developing their 4 stroke 450 makes one hope that their 4 strokes will improve

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8/16/2018 10:10 PM

Let's say they could. Would they? Is the market here worth it to them? How is the support here for them in the states?

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8/16/2018 10:26 PM

They would need to import 400 units of their 250 or 450 to be legal to race either. I've heard they import less than that when you combine all their models in total and as mentioned above, the majority of their imports seem to be two-stroke anyhow.

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8/16/2018 10:41 PM

Superdave19 wrote:

Takes $ to make $- If they want to grow, exposure is the best way.

That's the interesting thing though about TM... I'm not certain how or even if this is true, but in an old TM thread here, someone mentioned that TM has no desire to grow to the size of say KTM; that they strategically want to stay in the niche they're in as a high end "exotic" brand that focuses more on the latest and greatest trick components rather than mass production.

.....if what I just said is completely false, will someone better in the know please correct me laughing

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Positively, absolutely 110% obsessed with anything MOTO.

8/17/2018 2:03 AM

"...in an old TM thread here, someone mentioned that TM has no desire to grow to the size of say KTM"

MXA has said that several times. In spite of that, it is probably correct.

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8/17/2018 2:28 AM

What would it take?

AMA Pro / DC & Co, changing the rules so a small ( indeed Tiny) manufacturer ( and a couple of less Tiny mfrs) were given a break, and Not subjected to sales requirements that massive, and 'middle' level manufacturers, are.

But, it isn't about to happen, just like Equivalency.

Can't rock the boat, or think outside the square, you know........

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8/17/2018 4:07 AM

I think that 400 unit requirement is a worldwide availability number isn't it? If so that means they wouldn't necesarily need to import a lot of bikes here.

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8/17/2018 4:56 AM

Isn't there some kind of rule that lets a manufacturer test a prototype bike once in it's lifetime?
Didn't RC use that back in 2005 with the "cheater" RMZ450? Or Doug Henry with the YZ400F?

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#1
KX125

8/17/2018 5:28 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/17/2018 6:03 AM

ktm husky seem to have a bike on the track well before 400 hit the shores, somehow a loophole doesnt get closed.

and alta get vetoed right quick, with explanation referring to the cc bias of years yonder and now an admitted "mistake"...
but is now, to late to fix..
some might say corrupt but who am i to say...?
certainly to complicit press wont.

and yet half the sheep clowns here will thumb down this post...
and to them i say:
"i rode today, friday 17 8 18..and now drinking fer free in a hooker bar...suck on that... photographic evidence is available but youd have to agree to putting $100 into a charity upon you seeing it and losing..

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8/17/2018 5:31 AM

make1go wrote:

ktm husky seem to have a bike on the track well before 400 hit the shores, somehow a loophole doesnt get closed.

and alta get vetoed right quick, with explanation referring to the cc bias of years yonder and now an admitted "mistake"...
but is now, to late to fix..
some might say corrupt but who am i to say...?
certainly to complicit press wont.

and yet half the sheep clowns here will thumb down this post...
and to them i say:
"i rode today, friday 17 8 18..and now drinking fer free in a hooker bar...suck on that... photographic evidence is available but youd have to agree to putting $100 into a charity upon you seeing it and losing..

Correct me if i'm wrong but the 400 units doesn't have to be on showroom floors when the gate drops at A1. I think the date for that rule is in March?

I'm sure ML knows the exact rule.

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8/17/2018 5:53 AM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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8/17/2018 8:03 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/17/2018 8:03 AM

Muaybe you should take all those downward pointing thumbs as a sign.

Oops, meant to quote make1slow

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8/17/2018 8:06 AM

OldYZRider1 wrote:

I think that 400 unit requirement is a worldwide availability number isn't it? If so that means they wouldn't necesarily need to import a lot of bikes here.

400 to the US

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8/17/2018 8:21 AM

I thought for a small manufacturer like TM it was 200 units , which still may pose a problem for them.

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8/17/2018 8:24 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/17/2018 8:31 AM

HenryA wrote:

Isn't there some kind of rule that lets a manufacturer test a prototype bike once in it's lifetime?
Didn't RC use that back in 2005 with the "cheater" RMZ450? Or Doug Henry with the YZ400F?

This was already discussed in a another thread

But the rule makers in their infinite wisdom during the factory bike era - once converting to "production rule" had to come up with a definition of "production" - because the OEM's could circumvent the rule by making say 10 "production bikes" sold exclusively to the race team.

So they decided anything that was produced in large enough numbers to sell 400 of in the USA (ama/usa rule book in play) defined production - and that a "new" bike (back then new bikes weren't' released as early as they are now) had to hit 400 units imported/available for sale by whatever the current date is (march - april.???) but could be raced before then.

The big manufacturers signed right on board with this - because they immediately knew it completed stiffled a chance of competition starting up against them.

In the heyday - (mxa posted this recently) over 1,000,000 motorcycles were sold annually in the USA

Now less than 70,000 are sold

So - the old rules really don't make logical sense anymore when it comes to numbers. I doubt people would believe how few bikes each manufacturer sells - and to be honest - Im not convinced suzuki even hits the 400 units per bike in the usa - how many RMZ's do YOU see locally that are bought new every year?
In our area - I don't think I've seen a 2019 rmz250 bought new. And maybe have seen 2 450's in the SA, ATX, DFW and Houston area.

It's a real shame - I said it before - but the rules should be like mxgp. How cool would small manufacturers be if allowed in our sport. It's an injection of "cool" - and the shame is could a small manufacturer really kill the big OEM's sales? It's not like TM is crushing the GP's with their "works" one off bike....the sport has always been and always be the rider. Anyone who thinks the factory bikes are remotely production - is sorely and sadly mistaken anyways.

Just ask Kent Howerton - who won on a Husky - when it was complete and utter garbage compared to the factory offerings he raced.

EDIT:

(as a TM dealer)
I think TM USA is doing about 300 new bike sales a year total - all models

Their off-road 2 strokes being big - and the 85/100 (an amazing bike) being big chunk.

TM all in does around 1200-1500 new bikes world wide - with most of their income coming from karting engines - where they are the dominant figure worldwide (not in the usa mind you - because rule makers - in their infinite wisdom - made the rule spec hondas for most popular racing classes)

I believe their factory could handle 2000 bikes at max - which is the USA goal - get the US market numbers up to get close to production ability of the factory.


Where it really sucks - TM has some really sweet supermoto/street legal capable bikes. But to make a dent in the USA you must pay BIG bucks in EPA bs and DOT regulations to make it legal to sell as a street legal bike. Again - stiffling ANY small manufacturer from starting up - and make no mistake when the laws were written it was lobbied by big manufacturers to be this way.

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8/17/2018 8:28 AM

make1go wrote:

ktm husky seem to have a bike on the track well before 400 hit the shores, somehow a loophole doesnt get closed.

and alta get vetoed right quick, with explanation referring to the cc bias of years yonder and now an admitted "mistake"...
but is now, to late to fix..
some might say corrupt but who am i to say...?
certainly to complicit press wont.

and yet half the sheep clowns here will thumb down this post...
and to them i say:
"i rode today, friday 17 8 18..and now drinking fer free in a hooker bar...suck on that... photographic evidence is available but youd have to agree to putting $100 into a charity upon you seeing it and losing..

The rule for Supercross requires the 400 units by a date in March, not at A1. KTM and Husky have complied with this rule and been legal for competition. As for outdoors, there's a similar rule and that date falls pretty late in the season, thus the reason why Kawasaki and Yamaha have both raced a new model mid-way through the season as they could prove there was enough in transit/available by the date requested to be legal for competition.

There isn't a loophole, it's a black and white rule that any OEM can work with, KTM and Husky are just the only two that choose to do so.

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8/17/2018 8:34 AM

I can't think of any factory level riders/contenders that are in search of a ride right now that are actually capable of putting results on the board (top 10's anyway) seems to be just the right amount of factory bikes in the pits at the moment that justify a decent rider. Not really a need at the moment for another factory squad.

Besides reed and looks like there are spots for him at JGR or MCR

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8/17/2018 8:35 AM

They can't build more bikes. Someone should buy that great company, bring it to a bigger factory so those great bikes can build at bigger scale.

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8/17/2018 8:46 AM

You could spend 100 grand to turn a Suburu into a Ferrari, but you could just buy a Ferrari instead of an expensive aftermarket greenie car.

Or you could buy a TM or a Fantic, and have a Ferrari, instead of a Honda with 20 grand in extras, when the TM and Fantic already comes with all the shit you're gonna buy from the start!

Photo
Photo

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My post is my opinion. If you don't agree with it, I'm OK with it.

8/17/2018 9:45 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/17/2018 9:48 AM

diz330 wrote:

I can't think of any factory level riders/contenders that are in search of a ride right now that are actually capable of putting results on the board (top 10's anyway) seems to be just the right amount of factory bikes in the pits at the moment that justify a decent rider. Not really a need at the moment for another factory squad.

Besides reed and looks like there are spots for him at JGR or MCR

Seriously?

What about Barcia and Wilson as examples? Both took fill-in rides and got moved to full time. A guy like Nicoletti who performs extremely well every time he gets the chance but has spent his past few seasons as a professional fill-in guy. Chad Reed who is a consistent top 10 guy but doesn't have a factory ride for any number of reasons. Tyler Bowers?

And don't make me bring up JS7 and the needed factory ECU... (this one is a joke).

If you consider fill-in rides as a necessity, then it's quite possible you are right. But the other side is if you can give some of those on the fence factory level equipment, doesn't it deepen the field that much more? Not to mention the slew of 250 guys getting ready to move up and take some rides from guys who currently have them.

Personally, I'd like to see the satellite teams become the feeder system for the factory rides. MM25 gets hurt? Then move up one of the RMATV guys to the factory spot. (example... I know BB4 is a factory level guy already). Have full factory teams and then support teams... and then have the outside teams and privateers.

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8/17/2018 9:47 AM

OldYZRider1 wrote:

I think that 400 unit requirement is a worldwide availability number isn't it? If so that means they wouldn't necesarily need to import a lot of bikes here.

Derek Harris wrote:

400 to the US

This is what I had found a while back when researching this topic: 2015 Homologation Form. It's not current and may have changed. Section three has the quantities info.

2015 Supercross / Motocross Competition
Motorcycle Approval Application

3. Production and Importation Minimum Requirements
Minimum quantities which must be available through US dealers:
All Manufacturers – 400 units per model
Importation quantity deadlines:
Minimum 200 units March 1st of the current season
Minimum 400 units June 1st of the current season

After June 1st, manufacturers must maintain availability of models homologated for
the current season to any AMA pro-licensed motocross competitor until August 1st of
the current season. This applies unless the manufacturer can supply documented
proof that the units imported to the US as the minimum requirement were sold to
North American customers before June 1st of the current season. US distributor team
motorcycles are counted as part of the required units up to a maximum of 8 units.
Availability requirements do not apply on models homologated in previous seasons.

Notarized Bills of Lading and Applicable Invoices must be supplied to AMA
Racing for verification of importation quantities. Upon investigation, if this
information is not deemed adequate, AMA Racing may require other supporting
information.


I read that and have the impression that as long as a US dealer can get his hands on and be able to have 400 units stateside by June 1, that should meet the requirement. I suppose those 400 units could be sitting in a warehouse in Italy or scattered throughout the world in dealer showroom's and could be "moved" to a US dealer. I guess it hinges on what the interpretation of the word "available" is.

Of course this is the AMA Pro Racing's rules and I guess we all know they can deviate from their written procedures and do whatever they damn well want to punish or help any manufacturer.

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8/17/2018 9:48 AM

make1go wrote:

ktm husky seem to have a bike on the track well before 400 hit the shores, somehow a loophole doesnt get closed.

and alta get vetoed right quick, with explanation referring to the cc bias of years yonder and now an admitted "mistake"...
but is now, to late to fix..
some might say corrupt but who am i to say...?
certainly to complicit press wont.

and yet half the sheep clowns here will thumb down this post...
and to them i say:
"i rode today, friday 17 8 18..and now drinking fer free in a hooker bar...suck on that... photographic evidence is available but youd have to agree to putting $100 into a charity upon you seeing it and losing..

Motofinne wrote:

Correct me if i'm wrong but the 400 units doesn't have to be on showroom floors when the gate drops at A1. I think the date for that rule is in March?

I'm sure ML knows the exact rule.

200 by march, balance of 200 by june

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8/17/2018 9:52 AM

OldYZRider1 wrote:

I think that 400 unit requirement is a worldwide availability number isn't it? If so that means they wouldn't necesarily need to import a lot of bikes here.

Derek Harris wrote:

400 to the US

OldYZRider1 wrote:

This is what I had found a while back when researching this topic: 2015 Homologation Form. It's not current and may have changed. Section three has the quantities info.

2015 Supercross / Motocross Competition
Motorcycle Approval Application

3. Production and Importation Minimum Requirements
Minimum quantities which must be available through US dealers:
All Manufacturers – 400 units per model
Importation quantity deadlines:
Minimum 200 units March 1st of the current season
Minimum 400 units June 1st of the current season

After June 1st, manufacturers must maintain availability of models homologated for
the current season to any AMA pro-licensed motocross competitor until August 1st of
the current season. This applies unless the manufacturer can supply documented
proof that the units imported to the US as the minimum requirement were sold to
North American customers before June 1st of the current season. US distributor team
motorcycles are counted as part of the required units up to a maximum of 8 units.
Availability requirements do not apply on models homologated in previous seasons.

Notarized Bills of Lading and Applicable Invoices must be supplied to AMA
Racing for verification of importation quantities. Upon investigation, if this
information is not deemed adequate, AMA Racing may require other supporting
information.


I read that and have the impression that as long as a US dealer can get his hands on and be able to have 400 units stateside by June 1, that should meet the requirement. I suppose those 400 units could be sitting in a warehouse in Italy or scattered throughout the world in dealer showroom's and could be "moved" to a US dealer. I guess it hinges on what the interpretation of the word "available" is.

Of course this is the AMA Pro Racing's rules and I guess we all know they can deviate from their written procedures and do whatever they damn well want to punish or help any manufacturer.

you're missing the last paragraph..............notarized bills of lading and invoices, which mean that is the proof that the required units are in the countrydizzy dizzy

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8/17/2018 10:10 AM

ga_pike wrote:

How many bikes are they currently importing? How many more would they need to meet the minimums?

I think it'd be great to have another factory in the mix and the opportunity for more factory spots. It seems you see some TM's in the am ranks so are they going to possibly make a push to race in the US eventually?

They could race for one year under the works exemption rule

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"If you feel in control, you're not going fast enough" ~Mario Andretti

8/17/2018 10:12 AM

Stupid, archaic rule that needs to see the dumpster. More brands the merrier. Biased here as I liked the days when you might have 7-10 brands on the gate...love the odd, rare brands

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Kevin Windham‏ @kdub_14

Not 1factory racer hasnt been told that if ucan help teammate out, then do it 4 championship. Few r in a position like MM25 #partofthesport