What if....

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1/11/2019 5:24 AM

Honda updated the 150r with FI, redesigned the motor, and made a yamaha type aluminum frame? Could we have a entry level 4 stroke bike that would be competitive in horsepower ranges of a 125? Something like the Geico bikes they build but with a newer motor and updated frame?

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2009 RMZ 250 (sold)
2004 LTZ 400
#nukethequads

1/11/2019 5:28 AM

Sure, but why?

An overworked, expensive 4 stroke power plant struggling to be competitive with a ktm 125, or even a 105.

Honda should accept that a cr125 with moderate updates would be an awesome seller and require less r&d.

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1/11/2019 5:34 AM

JustMX wrote:

Sure, but why?

An overworked, expensive 4 stroke power plant struggling to be competitive with a ktm 125, or even a 105.

Honda should accept that a cr125 with moderate updates would be an awesome seller and require less r&d.

In my mind im thinking it would be something like a beta 125, the frame size is not as big as a 125 but a tad bit smaller. Something someone could hop on learn on, but when they are ready they can start hitting decent sized jumps on the track. And for us experienced riders a bike that you can absolutely ride the piss out of and it has engine braking, a property of a four stroke that i like.

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2009 RMZ 250 (sold)
2004 LTZ 400
#nukethequads

1/11/2019 6:04 AM

The biggest benefit of a 125 is the simplicity. Making it a 4 stroke would abolish the entire purpose. If you want a 4 stroke as powerful as a 125 get a 250f made before 2007.

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1/11/2019 6:31 AM

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

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1/11/2019 7:32 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I think you're over-estimating the size of the market. Divide that pie by 5 instead of 3 and it probably isn't worth it for any of them.

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1/11/2019 7:39 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

GrapeApe wrote:

I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I think you're over-estimating the size of the market. Divide that pie by 5 instead of 3 and it probably isn't worth it for any of them.

Maybe I am, I certainly don't know the numbers either. I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint. If you don't make a 125, you will own 0% of that market. How big is that market? I don't know. Maybe it's not worth it. Also, how many kids go to a KTM, Husky or Yamaha after the supermini so they can ride a 125 and then develop a brand loyalty? I'm sure there is no way to measure that but it has to account for something, I would think.

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1/11/2019 7:44 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

GrapeApe wrote:

I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I think you're over-estimating the size of the market. Divide that pie by 5 instead of 3 and it probably isn't worth it for any of them.

MXD wrote:

Maybe I am, I certainly don't know the numbers either. I was just looking at it from a practical standpoint. If you don't make a 125, you will own 0% of that market. How big is that market? I don't know. Maybe it's not worth it. Also, how many kids go to a KTM, Husky or Yamaha after the supermini so they can ride a 125 and then develop a brand loyalty? I'm sure there is no way to measure that but it has to account for something, I would think.

I would love to see them make updated 125's, I just assume smart people have done the market analysis and decided it doesn't make sense financially. Maybe I'm giving Kawasaki and Suzuki too much credit with that assumption.

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1/11/2019 7:49 AM

I’m not a very smart guy, however I’m willing to bet that Honda has a whole lot of smart people that work in Marketing, Business Analytics, Information Management, Budget, R&D, and emerging Markets/ future planning that have probably worked the numbers and understand the demand better than the Vital Think Tank. They are never bringing back the CR125 .... period. Don’t like it then go “Speak with your wallet” and buy a KTM or Husky.

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

1/11/2019 7:50 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

A couple months ago ML threw out a number of 500 yz125s annually. Not a big number.

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1/11/2019 7:53 AM

bvm111 wrote:

I’m not a very smart guy, however I’m willing to bet that Honda has a whole lot of smart people that work in Marketing, Business Analytics, Information Management, Budget, R&D, and emerging Markets/ future planning that have probably worked the numbers and understand the demand better than the Vital Think Tank. They are never bringing back the CR125 .... period. Don’t like it then go “Speak with your wallet” and buy a KTM or Husky.

If Honda is true to its word, it is not building another 2 stroke regardless what the market can support.

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1/11/2019 8:02 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

early wrote:

A couple months ago ML threw out a number of 500 yz125s annually. Not a big number.

Wow. I don't doubt that, but it shocks me. I wonder what the KTM/Husky numbers look like.

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1/11/2019 8:06 AM

If only and buts were candy and nuts, then everyday would be Erntedankfest.

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1/11/2019 8:09 AM

early wrote:

A couple months ago ML threw out a number of 500 yz125s annually. Not a big number.

Less than.

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1/11/2019 8:27 AM

MXD wrote:

I don't see how the manufacturers don't eventually join in and re-introduce a 125. The demand for one is well beyond nostalgia and fan boyism. It's become a safety issue and more importantly to them (although it's sad to say), I'm sure they are losing market share because of it.

early wrote:

A couple months ago ML threw out a number of 500 yz125s annually. Not a big number.

ML512 wrote:

Less than.

How is that even possible? That sounds so low!

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hammerfamily_4 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals

1/11/2019 10:32 AM

mattyhamz2 wrote:

How is that even possible? That sounds so low!

Why? For those that want a 125 surely they would rather go with KTM/ Husky/ TM to get a bike still being developed and improved upon. IMO.

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Now a member of the Orange brigade

1/11/2019 10:39 AM

ML512 wrote:

Less than.

mattyhamz2 wrote:

How is that even possible? That sounds so low!

shuggs wrote:

Why? For those that want a 125 surely they would rather go with KTM/ Husky/ TM to get a bike still being developed and improved upon. IMO.

I wouldn't. I'd go YZ, but that's just me. I thought for sure there were way more than that considering I personally know quite a few guys on brand new yz125s. I guess that doesn't mean much though.

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2017 RMZ450
2005 YZ250-sold :,(
1998 YZ250
2005 KX250F

80% of the time it works every time
IG @hammerfamily_4 & @2HRacing
Thanks to : Factory Effex, N2Dirt, Acerbis, DT1, Fasthouse, Matix, FMF, ASV, 100% & Mika Metals