WP 4cs forks

CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/13/2015 2:57pm
10/13/2015 2:57pm
sandman768 wrote:
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand...
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand track, although a bit of mid stroke harshness is felt & they deflect off any square edged type hits. Rode bike on a smaller hard packed mx track with lots of square edged type hits....forks are brutal, mid stroke harshness, deflecting off everything, but also would bottom on hard on fast braking bumps coming into turns....I got arm pump every time out & I never get arm pump! Definitely. Going back for redo, I"m not even sure what to tell them! Beginning to think buying the cone valve forks from the get go would have been best option, just put stockers back on for resale & keep cone valve forks for next bike
I did 3 Revalves on my 4CS. Tell your tuner what you feel. I kept going softer on the initial travel but had them add more oil for hold up. I'd just my compression pretty stiff and my rebound pretty fast. This would make the fork come back up above the harshness and give you a feel of more initial travel. I'm impressed with the setting Factory Comnection gave me... I'm in cone valves now and still impressed with what the did to my 4cs.
JChambers48 10/13/2015 4:14pm
10/13/2015 4:14pm
sandman768 wrote:
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand...
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand track, although a bit of mid stroke harshness is felt & they deflect off any square edged type hits. Rode bike on a smaller hard packed mx track with lots of square edged type hits....forks are brutal, mid stroke harshness, deflecting off everything, but also would bottom on hard on fast braking bumps coming into turns....I got arm pump every time out & I never get arm pump! Definitely. Going back for redo, I"m not even sure what to tell them! Beginning to think buying the cone valve forks from the get go would have been best option, just put stockers back on for resale & keep cone valve forks for next bike
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I did 3 Revalves on my 4CS. Tell your tuner what you feel. I kept going softer on the initial travel but had them add more...
I did 3 Revalves on my 4CS. Tell your tuner what you feel. I kept going softer on the initial travel but had them add more oil for hold up. I'd just my compression pretty stiff and my rebound pretty fast. This would make the fork come back up above the harshness and give you a feel of more initial travel. I'm impressed with the setting Factory Comnection gave me... I'm in cone valves now and still impressed with what the did to my 4cs.
This is what i'm doing with my 4CS forks at moment and its getting them to work pretty well i.e hard compression (10 Clicks) and speeding up the rebound (18+clicks).
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/13/2015 4:19pm
10/13/2015 4:19pm
+1 on Jchambers... I was around the same settings 8-10 out on compression and 15-18 out on rebound. If you are bottoming out, consider adding more fork oil to the softer revalved setting for hold up. Factory Connection worked on my forks...
Thelen20
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Thelen20 10/13/2015 4:43pm
10/13/2015 4:43pm
My 48mm cone valve forks out of the box from Billy at powerband racing were a HUGE improvement from my 4cs forks that were revalved twice by Stillwell performance. . . as they should be but I am glad I will not have to keep messing with those 4cs forks, I was still a little ways from being plush and I was miles away from having anything that resembled bottoming resistance

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Markee
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Markee 10/14/2015 3:17am
10/14/2015 3:17am
sandman768 wrote:
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand...
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand track, although a bit of mid stroke harshness is felt & they deflect off any square edged type hits. Rode bike on a smaller hard packed mx track with lots of square edged type hits....forks are brutal, mid stroke harshness, deflecting off everything, but also would bottom on hard on fast braking bumps coming into turns....I got arm pump every time out & I never get arm pump! Definitely. Going back for redo, I"m not even sure what to tell them! Beginning to think buying the cone valve forks from the get go would have been best option, just put stockers back on for resale & keep cone valve forks for next bike
John_Anthony wrote:
The arm pump, mid stroke harshness, and deflection is typical to EVERY 4cs set I've ridden, in stock form as well as re-valve. As I mentioned...
The arm pump, mid stroke harshness, and deflection is typical to EVERY 4cs set I've ridden, in stock form as well as re-valve. As I mentioned above, KYB carts are the way to go, as chasing the 4cs to work in all-around conditions is frustrating to $ay the least. I used the WP CC conversion technique on mine, but my tuner just built a prototype to convert the 4cs lugs, which is the way to go. This makes it a drop-in conversion from 4cs to KYBsss. I also ride a YZ 250, and feel the WP tubes (tolerances) make it a better product, noticeably less stiction. If cash is not an option, cone valve system is nice, but after riding them back to back would say it's not worth the extra money for an intermediate rider.
That interesting about the WP tubes. I run the entire KYB fork.

Do you know much about the modifications to drop the SSS carts in the WP tubes?
John_Anthony 10/14/2015 4:38am
10/14/2015 4:38am
sandman768 wrote:
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand...
Have about 3 hrs on my 2015 Xc 300 with revalved Shock & forks. Forks did not feel too bad on my rough whooped out sand track, although a bit of mid stroke harshness is felt & they deflect off any square edged type hits. Rode bike on a smaller hard packed mx track with lots of square edged type hits....forks are brutal, mid stroke harshness, deflecting off everything, but also would bottom on hard on fast braking bumps coming into turns....I got arm pump every time out & I never get arm pump! Definitely. Going back for redo, I"m not even sure what to tell them! Beginning to think buying the cone valve forks from the get go would have been best option, just put stockers back on for resale & keep cone valve forks for next bike
John_Anthony wrote:
The arm pump, mid stroke harshness, and deflection is typical to EVERY 4cs set I've ridden, in stock form as well as re-valve. As I mentioned...
The arm pump, mid stroke harshness, and deflection is typical to EVERY 4cs set I've ridden, in stock form as well as re-valve. As I mentioned above, KYB carts are the way to go, as chasing the 4cs to work in all-around conditions is frustrating to $ay the least. I used the WP CC conversion technique on mine, but my tuner just built a prototype to convert the 4cs lugs, which is the way to go. This makes it a drop-in conversion from 4cs to KYBsss. I also ride a YZ 250, and feel the WP tubes (tolerances) make it a better product, noticeably less stiction. If cash is not an option, cone valve system is nice, but after riding them back to back would say it's not worth the extra money for an intermediate rider.
Markee wrote:
That interesting about the WP tubes. I run the entire KYB fork. Do you know much about the modifications to drop the SSS carts in the...
That interesting about the WP tubes. I run the entire KYB fork.

Do you know much about the modifications to drop the SSS carts in the WP tubes?
Yea, my friend went that direction and just bought a triple clamp and bolted his YZ forks on his 2015 KTM250sx, but you lose the breaks, etc. Since I've had my done he converted his 4cs and loves it. With his 4cs conversion he needed to purchase (2) CC lugs, axle, wheel spacers, and fork guards on top of the cartridges and labor. With the modified bottoming cone and spacer (two pieces not anodized, stock cone on left), you don't need to purchase those parts. A set of the anodized cones and spacers are around $200, I think. Would have to contact TBT to confirm, maybe less. If you have a good set of KYBsss cartridges, then just add labor, wear parts, and service. Labor depends on what year cartridges you are working with, some years are easier than others to convert. My conversion Jonathan (TBT) did it for $1200 using all his parts, but it's the BEST $1200 I've ever spent on suspension work. Performance is unbelievable, as I had no idea how good a KTM was. To me this is a no brainer, as you know exactly where you will end up. We've done all the tricks that everyone claims works on the 4CS, and doesn't come close to the KYB cartridge conversion. I hear so many people throwing money at the 4cs with re-valves, and still going to the cone valve $$$$. Same reason I went to KYBsss, it's all about a confidence inspiring suspension. Give Jonathan a call over at TBT Arizona (602) 617-1032, and he will shoot you solid numbers.

snape99
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snape99 10/14/2015 6:37am
10/14/2015 6:37am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2015 6:38am
Nothing wrong with the 4cs forks , until you start the bike and ride it
Thelen20
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Thelen20 10/14/2015 11:01am
10/14/2015 11:01am
I'm glad I had my cone valves in time for this race, my other forks would have bottomed out every corner, never felt the new forks bottom out once. Still have not touched a clicker, good stuff that can only get better!

https://youtu.be/Nz5ltcL35IE
Charper732
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Charper732 10/14/2015 12:15pm
10/14/2015 12:15pm
beton6 wrote:
I have a couple of questions and a comment. First I know Adam Krefting and he is an amazing offroad A rider. But I rode with...
I have a couple of questions and a comment.

First I know Adam Krefting and he is an amazing offroad A rider. But I rode with him moto and He is slow and not that good. For offroad he has the 4cs stuff figured out better than any other tunner.

So this brings me to my questions, the guys who have bought the cone valves, do you guys ride/race moto or offroad? Does Billy know both or just moto?

I have and race a 15 350 xcfw offraod (just sprung it and love it) and got also a 15 250 FE which like some guys say here, Its been good so far but only have 6 hrs on it. Iam tempted to get the cone valve forks for it, But now Iam torn since I use moto for practice and I really race offraod and enduros, so on which bike would it be better and more usefull?

Charper732 wrote:
I have a set of '14 CV forks. They came on a 250sx I bought so they weren't setup for me valving wise but the spring...
I have a set of '14 CV forks. They came on a 250sx I bought so they weren't setup for me valving wise but the spring rate was correct. Ridepg is who the original owner got them from and they were horrible on MX, blew through the stroke and bottomed a lot. I rode the trails once with it and it was by far better than anything I have ever ridden on....I don't ride trails much and the last time I did was on my 250f that had proper mx suspension.

Anyway, The original owner said he had it setup for C level MX. So im not sure if by MX he meant woods or if Ridepg suspension is just that soft. Either way, I sent my suspension to PG to have it valved for a B rider and see how it does.

I researched a LOT to try and find a competent CV tuner.
Most places when I ask specific questions about the CV forks the only thing I get out of them is "we have done a ton of KTM suspension"

The "mid-valve" mod that powerband claims where he removed the Cone valve and puts a traditional mid valve in...just sounds like he couldn't figure out how to properly setup the cone valve... Not trying to bad mouth anyone, his stuff maybe top notch. Those are just my thoughts.

I've had FC suspension before, had to send it back twice and it still wasnt that great until i serviced the forks myself and adjusted the air gap.

I ultimately went with PG simply because they were the original tuners of the fork the first time and we sent in a dealer app to them so I could get mine done a little cheaper. This could prove to be a bad choice as they seem 100% geared towards woods riding, but I guess I will see. I've seen a few people ask if they make good MX suspension. I guess I'll be the first to answer that question.
beton6 wrote:
Sounds good
Lets us know
I rode on my revalved PG Cone valve forks for the first time today. The entire stroke feels amazing except for the bottoming resistance. I requested valving for a B rider and bottoming resistance to handle 120ft. On a ~90ft jump i went a tad long and nutted myself stupid hard. I don't think an air gap adjustment is going to fix the problem judging by how hard it bottomed but PG is closed today so I'll have to call tomorrow.
USMCMXer
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USMCMXer 10/14/2015 12:34pm
10/14/2015 12:34pm
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
Underground 10/14/2015 4:08pm
10/14/2015 4:08pm
USMCMXer wrote:
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be...
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
And when they are valved for 120ft flat landers, don't complain about small chop harshness. Perhaps you should just spend some money on coaching and learn to hit the landing.
Thelen20
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Thelen20 10/14/2015 4:59pm
10/14/2015 4:59pm
I'll let charper defend himself but I think y'all are being a little harsh

I never had that clank, metal on metal bottoming that I was accustomed to with my 4cs setup, I may very well have bottomed my cone valves but as I read in all the reviews, I couldn't feel it. I need to use a zip tie and make sure I am using the whole travel, judging by the scubbing on the tubes I believe I did use all the travel. I took some big hits but I didn't flat land a 90ft table yet
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/14/2015 5:41pm
10/14/2015 5:41pm
I was running 350cc of oil in my come valves and bottomed them with the correct spring rate. I went up to 375-380cc and bottoming is gone with same compression/rebound settings. I might even go 10more so I can back off the compression a hair but still have more hold up.
Underground 10/14/2015 7:25pm
10/14/2015 7:25pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I was running 350cc of oil in my come valves and bottomed them with the correct spring rate. I went up to 375-380cc and bottoming is...
I was running 350cc of oil in my come valves and bottomed them with the correct spring rate. I went up to 375-380cc and bottoming is gone with same compression/rebound settings. I might even go 10more so I can back off the compression a hair but still have more hold up.
That's all they take? Lot less than around 600cc for other WP stuff
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/14/2015 7:31pm
10/14/2015 7:31pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I was running 350cc of oil in my come valves and bottomed them with the correct spring rate. I went up to 375-380cc and bottoming is...
I was running 350cc of oil in my come valves and bottomed them with the correct spring rate. I went up to 375-380cc and bottoming is gone with same compression/rebound settings. I might even go 10more so I can back off the compression a hair but still have more hold up.
Underground wrote:
That's all they take? Lot less than around 600cc for other WP stuff
I believe max oil height for cone valves is like 410cc. Maybe 420? Correct me if I'm wrong...
Charper732
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Charper732 10/14/2015 8:25pm
10/14/2015 8:25pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2015 8:37pm
USMCMXer wrote:
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be...
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
Underground wrote:
And when they are valved for 120ft flat landers, don't complain about small chop harshness. Perhaps you should just spend some money on coaching and learn...
And when they are valved for 120ft flat landers, don't complain about small chop harshness. Perhaps you should just spend some money on coaching and learn to hit the landing.
So i need riding lessons because i posted my fidings after testing this suspension, pushing the limits and giving my feedback......right.

Bottoming is to be expected at some point, it comes down to bow hard it bottoms and in what conditions.
This jump doesnt throw you way up in the air. Its not like hitting the table at ww ranch...
My other bikes had no problem taking the big hits and I have never complained about taking the chop. There is a difference between bottoming and bottoming HARD. These bottomed hard asf. There were a few other places intentionally landed a little hard and they still bottomed, im talking 40-50ft. When I race, and im sure I'm not alone, I OJ sometimes even when scrubbing. There is no way in hell I would be willing to race with these bottoming this easy....and under race pace I'm sure they will bottom on a lot smaller stuff than what I'm describing here.

PG runs 390cc.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/14/2015 8:53pm
10/14/2015 8:53pm
What were your compression clickers at when you were bottoming?
Charper732
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Charper732 10/15/2015 12:58pm
10/15/2015 12:58pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
What were your compression clickers at when you were bottoming?
I only went in 5 clicks from the setting they sent me.

I talked to PG today. He seemed really surprised that they were bottoming on anything, they are going to run the serial numbers on the forks to make sure they didn't miss anything. He said they were setup close to their supercross valving.
Right now he said go back to the stock clicker settings and go for a 1/4 turn on preload and add 10cc of oil and be prepared to add another 10cc.

It sucks that the bottoming is off as far as it is, but I must say, I'm not mad about it as PG seemed genuinely concerned with the situation and wants to stay on top of it until the problem is resolved.

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Titan1
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Titan1 10/15/2015 1:34pm
10/15/2015 1:34pm
USMCMXer wrote:
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be...
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
Underground wrote:
And when they are valved for 120ft flat landers, don't complain about small chop harshness. Perhaps you should just spend some money on coaching and learn...
And when they are valved for 120ft flat landers, don't complain about small chop harshness. Perhaps you should just spend some money on coaching and learn to hit the landing.
Charper732 wrote:
So i need riding lessons because i posted my fidings after testing this suspension, pushing the limits and giving my feedback......right. Bottoming is to be expected...
So i need riding lessons because i posted my fidings after testing this suspension, pushing the limits and giving my feedback......right.

Bottoming is to be expected at some point, it comes down to bow hard it bottoms and in what conditions.
This jump doesnt throw you way up in the air. Its not like hitting the table at ww ranch...
My other bikes had no problem taking the big hits and I have never complained about taking the chop. There is a difference between bottoming and bottoming HARD. These bottomed hard asf. There were a few other places intentionally landed a little hard and they still bottomed, im talking 40-50ft. When I race, and im sure I'm not alone, I OJ sometimes even when scrubbing. There is no way in hell I would be willing to race with these bottoming this easy....and under race pace I'm sure they will bottom on a lot smaller stuff than what I'm describing here.

PG runs 390cc.
What class do you ride? I'm just curious.
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Thelen20 10/15/2015 2:54pm
10/15/2015 2:54pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2015 2:55pm
390cc and it bottomed? Dang! I am at 350cc
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CarlinoJoeVideo 10/15/2015 2:56pm
10/15/2015 2:56pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
What were your compression clickers at when you were bottoming?
Charper732 wrote:
I only went in 5 clicks from the setting they sent me. I talked to PG today. He seemed really surprised that they were bottoming on...
I only went in 5 clicks from the setting they sent me.

I talked to PG today. He seemed really surprised that they were bottoming on anything, they are going to run the serial numbers on the forks to make sure they didn't miss anything. He said they were setup close to their supercross valving.
Right now he said go back to the stock clicker settings and go for a 1/4 turn on preload and add 10cc of oil and be prepared to add another 10cc.

It sucks that the bottoming is off as far as it is, but I must say, I'm not mad about it as PG seemed genuinely concerned with the situation and wants to stay on top of it until the problem is resolved.
I'm running 3 clicks of preload and my compression clickers are between 6-8 out. Rebound 15-17 out. If you only went in 5, I would be scared to go more. Today I added 10cc more and didn't notice much. I think I'm going to go 10cc more and stick with that until my next service.
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Ron_Shuler 10/15/2015 7:45pm
10/15/2015 7:45pm
USMCMXer wrote:
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be...
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
USMCMXer Not only do I agree with your statement it is 100% correct, the problem with most riders is they get it stuck in their head if that the O-ring on the fork tube goes all the way down the fork then the fork must be too soft.
Charper732
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Charper732 10/15/2015 9:57pm
10/15/2015 9:57pm
USMCMXer wrote:
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be...
Charper732 please tell me you don't really believe saying "bottoming resistance to handle 120' on a 90' jump" is actually quantifiable and they should magically be able to come up with a fix, right? Your suspension should bottom at some point in a lap on a track, or at least use all of the suspension travel, not necessarily metal on metal bottoming. If you are setting your forks up to handle what you are describing above, do not expect them to work as effectively as they should on a track.
Ron_Shuler wrote:
USMCMXer Not only do I agree with your statement it is 100% correct, the problem with most riders is they get it stuck in their head...
USMCMXer Not only do I agree with your statement it is 100% correct, the problem with most riders is they get it stuck in their head if that the O-ring on the fork tube goes all the way down the fork then the fork must be too soft.
Who needs to look at the o-ring when your hands almost blow off the bars....
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Charper732 10/15/2015 10:00pm
10/15/2015 10:00pm
Thelen20 wrote:
390cc and it bottomed? Dang! I am at 350cc
The guy that it was valved for last time had the forks super soft and they ran 390cc in it then, too. I think 390 is just where they collected all their data at and that's what they run for everyone....I could be wrong though
imoto31
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imoto31 11/21/2015 3:36pm
11/21/2015 3:36pm
just got my forks back from jonathan at tbt. I never could get the 4cs to work on both my '15 & '16. I had a set of rg3 diamond kit cc off my '13 250sx that worked much better after a few re-valves on the sxf, so I decided to give the kyb conversion a shot rather than popping for the c.v. will post review after some testing.

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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/21/2015 3:55pm
11/21/2015 3:55pm
imoto31 wrote:
just got my forks back from jonathan at tbt. I never could get the 4cs to work on both my '15 & '16. I had a...
just got my forks back from jonathan at tbt. I never could get the 4cs to work on both my '15 & '16. I had a set of rg3 diamond kit cc off my '13 250sx that worked much better after a few re-valves on the sxf, so I decided to give the kyb conversion a shot rather than popping for the c.v. will post review after some testing.

What would a set like that cost? They look awesome!
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Moto3731 11/22/2015 5:30am
11/22/2015 5:30am
Just my take on the bottoming I rode a super hard pack track and softened mine up s ton then I'm practice the following weekend at a loamy big jump track I over jumped a jump so far a flat landed and the was still no bottoming sensation. Mine also were done by powerband with their mid valve but for those forks to bottom hard there must be something very wrong
imoto31
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3/22/2009
Location
Payson, AZ US
imoto31 11/22/2015 7:45am
11/22/2015 7:45am
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
What would a set like that cost? They look awesome!

thanks, price is hard to say. if you have a set of cc, the conversion labor is about $425.00 including a re-valve to your specs (weight, speed, and use) plus all parts needed. in my case I bought a set of '12 Yamaha 250f forks off ebay ('12-'16 250f or 450f are the easiest to convert) for around $550.00 to use for the internals. the only added expense would be springs, seals and bushings if needed and of course the coatings which I already had done but can be had for around $600.00. the only downside of using the cc forks on the newer models is that I had to buy a set of 20.5 degree ride engineering clamps to bring geometry back to specs but they look trick. the conversion can be made to 4cs forks but I think its more expensive labor wise.
Digger29
Profile picture for user Digger29
Posts
1886
Joined
11/2/2011
Location
Oxford, MA US
Digger29 11/22/2015 12:53pm
11/22/2015 12:53pm
I sold my cone valves last week and I rode my bike today at the same track as last Sunday with my 4CS that Billy at Powerband did for me last wk and I was pretty impressed with them. They were not as plush in the initial part of the stroke but the forks are brand new and they didn't do anything bad unlike my 15 250SX's 4CS forks which sucked something awful and were borderline un-raceable in stock form. My 15's deflected off of everything and bottomed something awful. Are they as good as my cone valves, F no but I could totally race with these forks. I changed the settings a little bit from where he had them. I'm at 16 on the compression and 18 on the rebound and they were pretty damn good. I let another guy with a stock 15.5 FE450 ride it and he loved both ends and said it was way way better than his stuff. I could tell he really liked it because he was hauling the mail on it.

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