Upgrade to enjoy this feature!
Vital MX fantasy is free to play, but paid users have great benefits. Paid member benefits:
- View and download rider stats
- Pick trends
- Create a private league
- And more!
Only $10 for all 2024 SX, MX, and SMX series (regularly $30).
I think those are both great games, and they fill a certain niche that people obviously enjoy.
Professionally, I think they are a bit too narrow in their focus in a demographic that is already very niche as it is.
But they've found a formula that works for them, and the consumer having a choice in moto games is a good thing all around.
Favorite MX vs ATV game is Encore (especially with the 2017 SX tracks). There are over 70 tracks out for Encore! That's not me just standing behind our game, I really enjoy the range in play styles you can do.
MX vs ATV Unleashed was great for it's time too, especially on PC with user created content and tracks. Reflex was/is amazing as well.
Thanks for the questions!
I was on 2 strokes in my racing days (never raced 4-stroke), but I do remember seeing Lance Smail qualify for Daytona in '97, the Doug Henry winning Vegas later that year.
At the time, 4-strokes sounded like there would be specific track conditions that suited them better, and some track conditions that would suite 2-strokes better. Maybe therein lies the answer? I remember a time when Carmichael and Reed stuck to 2-strokes in supercross, and 4-strokes outdoors because at that time different track conditions favored one bike vs. the other.
I will say some characteristics of the current style of track builds transfer well to video games and track maps - like smoother transitions, longer sections, inside/outside corner options - have overall a cleaner presentation and are more accommodating to "flow".
Fun question!
I'm going to cherry pick some of your questions because some are specific feature requests I can't answer.
I like your ideas and comments around compounds, career, and bike customization.
Compounds automatically work for us (core MX guys reading this post). They also are believable, intimate environments and potentially offer alot of variety - something that can be really challenging to design and build when not based on a realistic location. So I, as a designer, will always jump at the chance to do more compound-esque environments, even if some of the "creativeness" is already established because you are replicating an existing location. Another win is the licensing, in theory, should have less red tape because there are minimal people who have to sign off on replicating a private compound.
I touched on career in another post above. But to be specific, a career mode is valuable in almost all games. It's something that your "average" gamer is familiar with. I think the real magic would be to build a career where casual gamers don't feel like it's a grind, and moto gamers feel like the career models real life. There is alot to draw from in what you described. 125's, LL's, etc. Thanks.
Bike customization is another feature that spans the gap between moto gamers and casual gamers. Everyone likes customization - be it character, graphics, and/or performance customization - it's a great way for people to tweak the game to their liking and add show off their personal style. It is defiantly a necessity to have some in depth customization in today's games.
One more. Not having Suzuki DLC in UK is simply a licensing thing. Suzuki America is a totally separate division from Suzuki Europe and Japan and we just couldn't reach an agreement with some regions.
How many lines of code can vary greatly. But its safe to say a modern game has MILLIONS of lines of code.
But good can be written very efficiently, too.
Modern games are either built on a proprietary engine (ie: Frostbite engine - in which case YEARS of development is needed), or a licensed engine (Unity or Unreal for example).
MX vs ATV uses a proprietary engine.
So, once you get to the point where you have a stable engine, the goal is that it does most of the heavy lifting so engineers, artists, and designers can make use of everything that engine has to offer natively and only added to it when needed.
The other consideration is every new line of code, system, or tool that needs to be customized also then needs to be maintained and supported. Often a whole team is devoted to just that responsibility in large studios - and might even be shared across multiple studios.
Software is typically Visual Stuido for programming (often the programming language varies, or is a mixture), Photoshop and 3DS Max or Maya for art. And lots of third party tools, plug-ins, and magic to glue it all together.
Good questions!
The Shop
Have you checked out Reflex on PC (Steam)? It is playable online and also has a strong community of content creators.
As for playing Reflex online on console....
Serious answer, Reflex relied on 3rd party net code. Not only has that license long since expired, but the company who owned it has shut down and rebooted a few times - I'm not even sure of their current status.
PC works because Steam handles the network side of things as a fallback for all Steam games.
I think it was a bit shortsighted to rely on 3rd party net code, because the unfortunate side effect (for any game) is that once the proverbial 'switch' gets flipped off, that game will no longer function online.
I have a Phoenix question. Since you've been to a bunch of races here too, I thought I'd get your take, do you prefer the new venue at cardinals stadium or did you like it downtown at chase field?
I know we don't have much to go on yet. Thanks Mike see you Saturday night.
Devon from NG
With that being said though, I am a bit concerned about when we will see a full new game again from you guys. I realize the 2017 Official replica tracks are first and foremost right now and I, for one, have begged for those for years so am stoked that it is happening and realize that has to be priority right now and WANT it to be priority. Still, I hope that a full new game is in the works by some of the team who are possibly not working on the 2017 replica tracks or it is at least in the planning stages while the 2017 Track Edition DLC replicas are being completed..
MX vs ATV Supercross was released in Oct. 2014 with the first MXGP being released in the States in November 2014. There has been another full MXGP game already and they just announced their 3rd in the series today. I know you have made some great additions (Encore and especially the new 2017 track edition) but I hope a full new game is well under way whle you, at the same time, are working on the replica tracks. I do realize your team is small, though, so just curious your thoughts on that. Thanks, as always, man. Especially for the replica tracks. I know I have bugged the living hell out of you for years about doing replicas so please know that I am thankful and really appreciate it!
Thanks for the well wishes.
We got the chance to get on the floor and get some up close reference. How could I turn that down even if the 2017 tracks are already built! Not to mention seeing the track from ground level really makes you appreciate the scale and gnarly-ness of a SX track. It sure doesn't look the same from up in the stands or on TV.
Ideally, we would source all our art from real reference, which just enables the artists to be that much more accurate and authentic. There are even techniques were you can take a photo (lets say a photo of a pile of dirt), and manipulate it to use directly in the game. I know we've got some knowledgeable people here, so specifically....You take that image, do some clean up and crop it. Make it "tileable" (this lets the texture repeat without seams). You can even extract color data, height data and output different maps - for instance what is called a normal maps. What a normal map lets you do is have low poly geometry, but the normal map tells light how to bounce off all the little edges and facets you might have in that pile of dirt. A normal map basically makes it look more 3D, without the extra expense of adding millions of polygons.
I'm still trying to get a private photo shoot with a Monster girl...you know, for reference.
I honestly wonder the same thing. But I would assume there were two main factors that made it possible in '99.
1) Licensing. I don't know any details how that one was pulled off, but I would assume the sport was smaller, so less red tape. The way I understand it works today (in USA) is that SX/MX riders are basically independent contractors. There is no single entity who holds all the rights to riders, teams, OEM's and outside sponsors - unlike something like the license between Madden and the NFL.
2) Tech and scope. Tech is always relative (game systems were less powerful then), so you could only afford to add so much detail that it didn't necessarily take an army of artists to build a game then, as it does now. It's the classic quality vs. quantity - games of that era maybe had more content, but less effort was needed to make that content. Games today will sometimes make up that difference by adding more content through DLC.
If there was a single point of contact for the entire industry, I'd image it would be easier. It takes alot of effort to wrangle in everyone who ends up being in the game.
Thanks for the question.
Round 4 was delayed on xbox one until today (Friday). Our apologies.
We had some speed bumps on all platforms pioneering the week-to-week DLC. But those should be smoothed out from here on out. It's been a learning curve, even for Sony and Microsoft, as I think we are the first to do DLC in such a way. But I think it is proving to be a really cool push and worth some of the headaches to get you the tracks before the real event!
Glad you're liking the 2017 tracks!
Thanks for the feedback. I know scale is important. We had some limitations, but the 2017 SX track are very close. I'll give you some insight for how "scale" can be perceived in a video game.
Video games (and movies, still images, entertainment attractions, etc) can do some tricks to make scale seem larger or smaller that it is. Think "force perspective". Ever see those sidewalk chalk images where from a certain perspective it looks like a 3D image on the ground?
That perception is controlled by camera position, camera field of view, proper lighting, and background. Depending on the media, you can add effects like motion blur, depth of field, and audio tricks.
Here are some numbers that you may not believe...
Using the distance of a triple as a reference point - in real life triples are around 65 feet.
In Encore they are no more than 85 feet. It's not unheard of to jump 85 feet on a dirtbike.
Now here's the surprise....Reflex triples were 130 feet. People do not believe me until I show them. But the way the camera was tuned and some of those other effects I mentioned, some people will swear Reflex is "realistically scaled".
It's all a balance and often times just changing the camera can throw the sense of scale way off, or sell it as being perfectly scale when in reality it is not.
Thanks for the post.
I think both venues have their own pluses and minuses.
Chase field, being a baseball stadium, the track layout can be hard to have it flow. The last 2 years of the racing being at Chase field, were really well laid out. But I've heard riders say baseball tracks can feel "notchy".
Then we have the layout in Glendale which is a football footprint. It offers longer sections, a longer lap time, and generally more 180 turns (great for passing).
Downtown is closer to the office, and Glendale is closer to my home, so I'm split there.
I think overall it's a good change to move to Glendale. The amenities are much nicer, safer part of town, and parking can be insane down town. I know for a fact the teams like the pits better at Glendale as apposed to being crammed under the overpass at Chase field.
See ya Saturday (or maybe Friday?)
You're one of hard core fans, for sure. I can't say if you can expect a new full game from Rainbow soon, or you would have heard about it by now!
I'm not sure of the size of other games' teams, but yes our team is small compared to other teams I've been on. For example, Reflex had roughly 50 people directly involved in the game. Not counting marketing, management, HR, etc.
Supercorss (not Encore) had no more than 10 people and we shipped it in 8 months! This is just about unheard of to ship a game these days with so few people, so fast. We spent alot of late nights just to make it happen because we wanted to get a game out quickly since it was almost 3 years from Alive. We've since grown, and I hope we continue to grow. But for context, a game like Destiny has 250 people. I think at some point you get diminishing returns, but we try to hire the best, most passionate people so we can maximize our efforts.
I have a funny story. When we release the Straight Rhythm DLC, we had someone comment that we should have added a track editor instead. Nevermind that feature would be a HUGE undertaking, but I think they assumed the artists also wrote code?
Video game dev is more of a leap frog effort between design, art, and engineering - with production sort of overseeing it all. There is always someone working on something new behind the scenes
I will check in, but keep the questions coming and I'll catch up when I can.
edit: 45 replies so far. Cool number
I remember well when you guys were just getting going. I actually was in almost daily communication with Reinhard almost from the day you guys acquired the IP. This was before you guys were even hired and got the team back together. He asked me how to reach you guys and I sent Reinhard yours, Riesenburg's and Elliot's emails so he could contact you guys...with your permissions, of course. So I kinda helped early on with the team and getting you guys together.
I do disagree with the making the scale bigger, though. If we just had Alive's scale with these replica tracks it would be literally perfect. The JS7 stuff in Alive is awesome. I hope you consider going back to that scale and slow the game down and that turbo clutch.
Anyway, work hard and have fun tomorrow and hope to hear some stuff in regards to my original questions when you can. Thanks again for your time and efforts.
I know you said the solution for the AI is to play online. I know that was somewhat tongue in cheek but also kinda not. That is not an option for still a lot of people, more than you might think. What can be done to improve the AI riders programming? It really is atrocious. They never roll any jumps and they ride ridiculously random and over jump everything and crash constantly. They even ride across the track at times and have even seen them riding the wrong way! Sports gaming AI in 2017 is very sophisticated so I know it can be done much better. Other racing games do a much better job as far as AI programming. As it stands in Encore you can barely have any back and forth racing with the AI which really detracts from the game.
The first step is to get them riding correctly and sensibly. And secondly, do you ever think we will ever see Pro riders riding skills affected by a ratings system like we see in all major sports games? That would be a huge step in the right direction and really improve the season series. Top tier riders should, for the most part, be on top. Middle of the pack have their place and should finish that way. Some riders are great starters, some are consistent, some are crash prone or fade. These are important elements. As it stands now, all riders are the EXACT same with the exception of maybe Stewart in Alive.They need to be more accurately portrayed so that the season standings make some sense.
Also, we DEF need to be able to pick which riders are in a series. That is a must as most season series in Encore consists of like two top tier riders and then a bunch of guys who are for sure talented but for the most part hardly make the night show. That is far from fun and far from realistic. That could be remedied with a simple check list of how you want to participate in your season series.
I know playing online is the easy answer but truth be told the programmed AI needs some MAJOR improvements as that is still a large part of any sports or racing game.
It's pretty cool that your doing this and giving people some inside on what goes on in developing a game. There have been quite a few forums on here about video games and what everyone wishes would be on a game, and I was wondering if you or anyone on your team ever see that stuff. Also, I know a lot of people out there want a game with a realistic career mode, I for one would much rather play in a career mode than online. I know games like MADDEN and NBA2K have alot more money and people working on them but when I play the career modes on those games I always just think "man this would be so sick if their was a moto game like this". Is there any talk between you guys about this kind of stuff?
Also do you have any ideas or are you currently working on how to fix the whips and scrub physics? Not trying to nit pick but they just look stiff. Overall I'm thankful for all the continous work your team has put in over the years and look forward to the future games!
Pit Row
We do see most feedback. We have a community manager who monitors a number of webistes and social media, as well as our own forums at community.mxvsatv.com and our facebook page. His job, among other things, is to collect comments, ideas, and give technical support when needed to and from the community. I personally check VitalMX daily for moto news, and I read every game thread I come across. Just reading back through this thread, it's easy to see there are some common requests - one of those being career. There is definitely a lot of thoughts and ideas kicking around, and we'll be sure to discuss how we can best approach a career like the games you mentioned. I think it would add a cool progression to the game working your way through a moto career.
For whips and scrubs (and physics in general) for Encore, we won't be updating those. Though things can always be improved, it would be a big risk to change physics to a game already released, especially because players have spent alot of time playing and getting really good at Encore's physics.
If you haven't tried the factory chassis, I recommend giving it a whirl.
The stock and upgrade chassis have an "auto return" function, that I feel you have to fight against to whip. Maybe that is some of the stiffness you described. The factory chassis doesn't have that auto correct feature, so I think it is much more nimble, but also more challenging for sure.
Here is a short breakdown for how I tell people how to whip in Encore using the factory chassis.
Right Stick = Bike pitch and roll.
Left stick = Bike yaw (rotation)
To get into a whip...
You want to start the motion with the Right stick, first by pulling back and leaning to the side as you go off a jump.
Then follow up with the left stick to rotate in the direction of your lean.
To recover the whip for the landing...
Start with the Right stick and lean the other way.
Use the brake in air to help drop the front end if needed.
Then follow through with the Left stick to rotate your bike straight just before landing.
When done right it'll be one fluid motion. And with practice you can throw different style whips.
Here is a short tutorial that goes over scrubs and whips that might help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS2FzpFhJW8
Thanks for the questions!
I'll be doing the usual talking to riders and fans at the race. Come say hi if you see me or any of our crew wearing MX vs ATV shirts/jackets.
I'll also check in for any more questions during some downtime from the stadium.
Would that be possible ?
If so, and if something along those lines could be offered, I bet that if marketed as such, this addition could potentially attract a lot of new people, customers (like myself) that are frankly a little intimidated by the present game and tracks. Plus, back then, you usually would spend a ton of money on modifications, parts, engine work, suspension, etc.etc in order to gain even the smallest edge on your competition, so that could be an opportunity for a whole new inventory of DLC to offer.
I'm sure also that many of the Pro racers from the early days of MX would be interested in participating as racers in the game too,
Also, here is a list of suggestions for an update;
-More than 3 customizable riders! I'm gonna need you guys to give me like 5 at a minimum.
-Ability to change the plastic color on the Nordic and Rainbow bikes, make it the last mod to be unlocked.
-Ability to change the seat covers on the bikes. They are already there, just need the ability to change them separate from the graphics.
-2017 bike and gear update. If we aren;t getting a new game until 2018, we need some new gear color ways and the OEM bikes to be updated. Hell, as much as I hate it, Ill probably buy each 2017 model OEM i(again) f you make them available.
Most of my suggestions were for the next full game. With that being said, if it is going to be a while before we see a new game....more than a year, I guess...couldn't we get some new bike models and or/more realistic graphic kits as DLC? A lot of the graphic kits look NOTHING like what we see on track each week. One Industries has been out of the graphics business for years and now completely out of business. And even the companies that still do graphics that you have in game...well, their graphic kits look nothing like what we see in the game. For example, Throttle Jockey does HRC's graphics but again looks nothing like what we have in game. Could we not get some 2017 model OEM bikes to buy and new graphic kits?
Also, at the end of the Official tracks DLC will they all be available in a season points series mode together? I would think you would do that and really hope you do.
Lastly, on the create a rider you cannot save your rider's name. Anyone else have that problem? You can save the number but not rider's name.
Thanks again.
Always good to have you and Feld getting a better and closer relationship. That can only lead to a more authentic game experience in the future.
I like the idea of having vintage MX bikes. (Blitz SX whoops at your own risk though!)
MX vs ATV has traditionally had extra vehicles besides MX and ATV's.
In the past, even included trophy trucks, helicopters, and monster trucks.
Some of those vehicles, I think, were just too far away from MX and ATV's that special events were added just to accommodate the extra vehicles. While cool on their own, it does take some resources away from the core game.
I think vintage bikes could be a good addition, while still fitting in with the MX vs ATV scope and scale.
I wouldn't expect to be winning races on a vintage bike, but if it's a fun experience you are after, then braap away! I'll keep this one in mind.
Thanks for the suggestion!
I have 2 words for you: I agree! Squall Valley is pure moto.
Maybe I misunderstand you...but you can change the plastics colors on the Nordic/Rainbow bikes. Go into the "Graphics", and press Y (on xbox) or Triangle (on PS). A color wheel should pop up. Same operation as changing your wheels, hubs, or Rainbow gear colors.'
Thanks for your suggestions!
The graphic kits we get straight from the manufactures. It's up to them which ones we re-create in the game. Sometimes the designs change, or in a few cases graphic companies have given us some "alternative" designs. MotoOption is one where they whipped up some special kits just for the game.
Yes, by now some kits maybe out of date, but the simple explanation is we work with what we are given, when we are given it. And it usually doesn't make sense to retro-fit a graphics kit on an bike model already in the game (never mind that because of a technical limitation that would necessitate a patch to do that). I'm sure you've noticed the OEM bikes have graphic kits that the Rainbow/Nordic bikes do not. That's a result of timing.
My hope is once 2017 Las Vegas comes out, a career/points series will come along with it. But being stright with you, there are heavy game-breaking limitations we've found. I'm not sure what our final solution is/will be. It maybe a PC only thing because of some differences in the console's architecture. Still have a bit of testing to do before I say it'll happen.
I've heard the Race Day Live feed was acting up. I havn't seen it yet, I hope it'll be good on the live stream archive. I did look up at one point and saw they were pumping the feed to the jumbo tron. That was a shock! Ever see your head 30 feet tall?
Jim Holley and Andy Bower and the whole Race Day Live crew are great and fun to work with. I hope we get to do it again.
First, thanks to GuyB for the chance to do the QnA. Thanks to everyone who posted a question, and tons of suggestions.
If I didn't answer something specifically, it was mostly because it was a suggestion in the form of a question, or something specific I couldn't talk about.
But rest assured, every post was read and re-read, and it'll be on the internet for ever so I can refer back to here.
It was a very busy week at Rainbow, with the SX in town, hosting an industry open house, and this pesky thing called a "schedule" that I have to stay on top of.
But here is a quick recap of my weekend:
Thursday the team got private access to the stadium. We all took cameras, and audio gear to capture as much reference as possible. For me, it was my first time "on the track" on a real supercross. I've seen many tracks up close, but never from the perspective of looking UP at a triple lip.
Friday was our industry day. It's a chance for moto industy folks to come hang out at the studio, see some behind the scenes, and start and/or maintain our relationships with all the awesome people we get to work with. We had all sort of people stop in. Because press day is on Friday (used to be on Thursday), we got slammed in the afternoon as everyone booked it over here after the press was wrapped up at the stadium. GuyB stopped by (I think just for the snacks and cookies), along with the Race Day Live crew, some folks from graphics companies, OEM marketing, pro riders, Ray from RMFantasy, team managers, crew and mechanics, Racer X and other MX journalists...on and on. We had a hot lap challenge going on, and lets just say the trash talk was an encouraged tactic when your opponent was on a heater. I took the opportunity with a few riders to show them some prototype physics and did some experiments to make it more "sim" (these will not get release in Encore, sorry don't get your hopes up), but it was a great learning experience to apply to the future.
Saturday was race day. Awesome weather. I got to the stadium early to catch up with a few people I missed on Friday. The Vans BMX Triple Crown guys are NUTS! Watched Tomac and Hill run the fast laps in practice, then did the interview with Race Day Live. The next couple hours for me went like this: Pits-Practice-Pits-Practice-Talk to fans-HotDog-Stuck in Elevator-Charge my Phone. The night show started and the usual suspects were running fast laps. Cody Gilmore ripped his LCQ start and I thought he was going to win the thing but Vince Friese was on his tail. The 250 main racing was awesome. I picked the order perfect with Hill, Mcelrath, and Forkner. My picks for 450's were waaay off. Tomac showed his fast laps in practice were no fluke and he absolutely demolished the field. Went down to the press conference after the race, which is a really cool addition this year. It definitely has a more professional vibe. Got some dinner after the race and got home around 1:30am.
Today I'm in the office wrapping up this week's track map, and getting some schedule stuff out of the way for tomorrow. All in all a very productive week in MX vs ATV land.
Thanks again for everyone's participation and your support!
Braaap!
What was your tag back in mcm2 days?
Post a reply to: Vital MX Forum QNA: Mike Mamula