Visual override by the AMA?

Old Mate
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2/20/2012 4:22pm
LouDog wrote:
We got screwed Weston was ahead at the top of the jump and were they wave the checkerd flag and were the transponder clicks off. They...
We got screwed Weston was ahead at the top of the jump and were they wave the checkerd flag and were the transponder clicks off. They told us that they went by the bottom of the jump total bullshit. We really didnt have any say so. If it was a factory rider it would have been different. Why do we need transponders this is how we make our monie and we got ripped off tonight. Not really fair for someone that is paying to be in the mains.
Steve S or Mathes? Is this just hype or was this guy told that they go by the bottom of the jump, not the top where the finish flag was. I have no argument about the decision as apparently the score keeper seen it the way it was decided. I am a pro mx coach and id just like to be able to tell riders i train where the finish line is.
SteveS
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2/20/2012 4:40pm
There is another thread about where the finish line is. GuyB offers an explanation he got from an official.

Like most, I had always thought the finish line was at the top of the jump where the flagman stands. The rule I've cut and pasted would seem to indicate that is where you have to cross to have a lap count. Certainly I've never seen a finish line drawn on the ground when I've done a track walk (unlike the holeshot line, which they do draw on the ground).

The explanation GuyB got was that they can't put the transponder loop at the top because it's in a PVC pipe and it would get exposed from wear of the track. So they put it further down the face, and apparently that's where they also score the laps and finish.
Old Mate
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2/20/2012 4:47pm
Cool as and thankyou. Just read the other thread. Wow Piek passed the finish flag first but thats not the win. Ok. Why dont they get the flag guy to stand on the finish line as that would solve it all. I watched me old man race Roger Decoster, i had years of racing and both my boys have raced around the world. Thats 3 generations and i been coaching for 20 years and i have always been told[pass the Flag to win the race. Seems to me it was an innocent stuff up and Piek got ripped off. Anyway,good thing about this sport,there is always next week.
wet paint
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2/20/2012 4:55pm
If the live timing says Weston was .002 ahead at the(timing line). Then the pics show him ahead at the (finish line). Why did it all get over turned ? I am not on here to bash anyone but something is wrong here and needs to be looked into.

The Shop

SteveS
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2/20/2012 5:09pm
Did a little searching for a photo. Had several that showed this, but picked this one from the 2009 St Louis SX because it's a blast from the past as far as who is in the picture. Look at the finish line jump. On the side of it you can see the PVC pipes sticking out about halfway up. Apparently that's where they score the finish.
SteveS
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2/20/2012 5:12pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 5:13pm
wet paint wrote:
If the live timing says Weston was .002 ahead at the(timing line). Then the pics show him ahead at the (finish line). Why did it all...
If the live timing says Weston was .002 ahead at the(timing line). Then the pics show him ahead at the (finish line). Why did it all get over turned ? I am not on here to bash anyone but something is wrong here and needs to be looked into.
Given that Peick was accelerating faster than Faith going up the face, and that the transponders are mounted on the top of the forks (about 2 feet back from the front edge of the front wheel), a margin like that could come from the tip of Faith's wheel crossing the line first, but Peick's transponder reaching the line first since he was in the process of passing Faith.
Peick was ahead at the top of the jump, but apparently that is not the finish line.
SteveS
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2/20/2012 5:35pm
Look at the picture. The scorekeepers can see the PVC pipe. They are in the scaffold tower right next to it.

I suspect the rules evolved this way:

Originally the rules were all about the scorekeepers since that's all there was.

An accommodation was added for the possibility of a photo finish which could override the initial scorekeepers' call.

Transponders came on the scene and they began using them to allow timing and some automation in the scoring.

I'm guessing that at some race the transponder pipe got exposed and caused a problem, so they decided to move it down the face of the jump to fix that. However they didn't write a rule to clarify that they'd moved the finish line, and they didn't do anything to move the flagman from the top of the jump. If you've ever walked one of those tracks you know it's not possible to stand on the slope of the finish line jump. It's too steep and there's no place to stand. The side of the hill will give way if you step on it.

Despite using transponders for general scoring and timing, which is very accurate and not a problem for qualifying times, because the position of the transponder on the bike is fixed on a given bike, and the time goes from transponder signal to transponder signal the next time through. However, since the transponder is not mounted on the forwardmost part of the bike (which is the tire), if the race is closer than half a bike length, the transponder cannot be relied upon to distinguish the winner, since that is based on the forwardmost part of the bike crossing the plane of the finish line.

And that's the situation that caused the events of Saturday.

If you accept that the finish line is where the PVC pipe sticks out of the side, not the top of the jump, it all makes sense.
Sparkalounger
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2/20/2012 6:08pm
If you accept that the finish line is where the PVC pipe sticks out of the side, not the top of the jump, it all makes sense.

I'm callin BS...

why would we want to except that?

the finish line is at the FLAG. End of Fucking story! And NO, it is NOT HARD to make a platform for the flagman to stand on halfway up the jump... i have installed many.

bottom line. lack of THEIR foresight cost someone money.... they should have admitted a mess up and just allowed both to the main. THEN, modified the rulebook and let everyone know that the new finish line is only halfway up... (if thats what they decide)
wardy
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2/20/2012 6:11pm
7 pages really. and no one mentions a 2 STROKE!??? blasphamy.
Sparkalounger
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2/20/2012 6:24pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 6:25pm
wardy wrote:
7 pages really. and no one mentions a 2 STROKE!??? blasphamy.
in the most recent Dirt Rider, April 2012, page 73, Pete Peterson says...
"And as great as FI thumpers are, they're drawing the sport away from the accessibility that helped it grow. Imagine 10 years from now a new rider buying a used bike to see how he liked motocross. Pretty daunting. The four strokes could make the recreational rider extinct. Now that's something scary that might be sneaking up on all of us!"
jeffro503
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2/20/2012 8:08pm
Soooooo....to sum things up.

#1 Weston was scored a faster finish then Faith as that is what the transponder said.

#2 In the picture it clearly shows Weston ahead of Faith at the top of the jump ( where the finish line flag is )

#3 Both #1 and #2 don't matter....because FIM decided to say the actual "finish line" is at the bottom of the finish line jump.

#4......You have Loudog and Old mate that have their sons racing all over the world in the biggest shows on the planet....and THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THIS SHIT! Along with 99% of the guys in this thread.

Here is a thought......now that we know the actual finish line is at the bottom of the jump.....How hard are the last corner take outs going to be now? Screw it if you don't make it to the actual flag......as long as you come out of the corner ahead of the next guy....who cares?
KAWboy14
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2/20/2012 8:47pm
the ama made the right call!
wet paint
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2/21/2012 1:55am
If this was two of the top riders like RV and JS on the last lap of the main. Same scenario with the timing tower showing the winner and 60,000 people watching as he heads to the podium. Then gets told he did not win. What will happen?
tbanks
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2/21/2012 5:23am
wet paint wrote:
If this was two of the top riders like RV and JS on the last lap of the main. Same scenario with the timing tower showing...
If this was two of the top riders like RV and JS on the last lap of the main. Same scenario with the timing tower showing the winner and 60,000 people watching as he heads to the podium. Then gets told he did not win. What will happen?
^^^^^This.....but my prediction would be that FIM/AMA would pull a hidden rule out of their ass. Like give both riders the same amount of points or something IDK.

Regardless it was a bad move by the powers that be.....
Sherwood
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2/21/2012 9:31am
wardy wrote:
7 pages really. and no one mentions a 2 STROKE!??? blasphamy.
You guys already screwed that up behond repair. This still might be able to fix.
GHR
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2/21/2012 10:55am
This is BS!!............

2/23/2012 7:19am
So is there really going to be no statement/press release from the AMA/FIM about this?

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