Visual override by the AMA?

Old Mate
Posts
2196
Joined
3/9/2009
Location
Sussex Inlet AU
2/20/2012 8:53am
Bit confussed, i have always thought that finish flag was the finish line. This has really thrown me. So wear is the finish line now? The bottom of a jump?
JustMX
Posts
4621
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
2/20/2012 9:07am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 9:09am
kongols wrote:
Has there ever been bullshit like this? I mean any level of AMA Sx/Mx racing.
Newbie?


Fuel gate

Ignition and/or EFI mapping changes and/or placing some kind of restrictive material in airboxes to pass sound checks.

Chains in air boxes for post race weigh-ins

Factory riders getting as much time as they need to fix a bike before the start of a moto (example: Jeff Stanton at gatorback '89)


The elephant in the room is that if the transponders can not be relied upon to judge a close finish, than how can they possibly be relied upon to decide fast laps for qualifying.

BRING BACK RACING TO QUALIFY!!!!!!
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 9:08am
You should get right on the phone to MLB, NBA, NFL and tell them that bit of news.
wardy
Posts
1765
Joined
3/31/2008
Location
US
2/20/2012 9:09am
I don't care who did or did not get into what race where. Simply stating the fact that the people who were scoring this and who is refereeing this event must have seen something to make this happen.

You guys live and die by the transponders it's funny as I remember a mud race a few years ago where the scores were less then stellar and they "stepped in" to fix them. I remember watching James being lapped quite a few times only the next day to see he was awarded like 6th? Transponders aren't perfect.

No one in that tower did this because of some bias. They did it because they were working off what they saw.

You can blame whoever and bitch at me about it, fine. I am simply pointing out the fact that those people working there did what they did because they strongly thought it was correct. It's a thankless job and hard enough they don't look for trouble.

The Shop

jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 9:15am
"This is either a business, or it's a sport. Can't have it both ways."

You did not remark on the quality of their decisions......you said that something is either a sport or a business but can't be both.
I merely pointed out that you are wrong.......pro sports are businesses as well.
35smom
Posts
1428
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Asbury US
2/20/2012 9:25am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 9:32am
Read the rules...no lawyers. when you sign to be a member you agree to that. Just sayin....Whistling
Arbitration only. Been there done that.
I kinda look at it like football. They review the play and sometimes comes out different. Sucks but obviously they felt it was needed.
SteveS
Posts
5600
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WV US
2/20/2012 9:34am
There's no rule about exactly where the finish line is. I imagine it's wherever they scoring. Here's the only rule about where:

b. To be considered as having completed a lap, the rider and his
motorcycle must cross the plane of the checkered flag.

At any rate, since the rulebook says that close finishing order is determined by either finish line video or by scorekeeper's decision if no video is available, they followed their own rules exactly if the finishing order was determined by the scorekeepers decision.
35smom
Posts
1428
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Asbury US
2/20/2012 9:41am
Nope its not the sponsors that are racing. And sure let the sponsors sue....should make for great future racing. You will end up with no racing. Cant live by the fear of lawsuits.
If indeed the FIM (as THEY are the ones who made the decision) felt they made the right decision and the have something to support it, how are they wrong?
The Rock
Posts
8763
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
2/20/2012 9:45am
How about when kehoe passed McGrath over the finish line at gatorback. That wasnt scored at the base of the jump
jndmx wrote:
That was about 3 decades before transponders became the norm.
I think Kehoe was on a BSA and McGrath was on a Matchless
racer369
Posts
631
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
MO US
2/20/2012 9:46am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
That wasn't nearly as bad as Vince Friese taking out Bogle in Dallas. Im glad Bogle slapped him.
Whats your problem dickhead?
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 10:06am
The sponsors are business partners with both the racer and the promoter/sanctioning bodies.

Now you're just making shit up.
How is a 3rd party that puts up money independently to a rider that is not an employee of Feld in any way shape or form a "Partner".

That isn't reality.

That's like saying I am partners with The American Heart Association because I sponsored some folks in a walkathon.
tmphotoart
Posts
673
Joined
11/2/2011
Location
Yorba Linda, CA US
Fantasy
1233rd
2/20/2012 10:10am
tmphotoart wrote:
The AMA always sides with the factory team riders. The AMA knows who butter's their bread, and will bend over once a little factory team pressure...
The AMA always sides with the factory team riders. The AMA knows who butter's their bread, and will bend over once a little factory team pressure is applied.

Faith's team has much more industry connections and am sure more vocal to the AMA about getting their riders in the main. Weston is a true privateer, with little industry connections, hence not much pull with the AMA.

Weston got a raw deal from the AMA at Dallas, but he is proving to be a solid SX racer against a very deep field. I bet he pushes harder next time to have a bigger cushion from third place in an LCQ.

Race One . . . Weston!
JBlain619 wrote:
What team does Faith ride for??? I was there, and I'm pretty sure he was pitting out of his van. He isn't on a factorry team...
What team does Faith ride for??? I was there, and I'm pretty sure he was pitting out of his van. He isn't on a factorry team, so this excuse is piss-poor. He and Weston are both privateers.

Now, before you go being a dick about what I just said, again I was at the race. I thought Weston got the last transfer spot. Gavin made one hell of a move in the last turn, but I still thought Weston got the spot. It was very confusing when Irv started announcing and they start from the last qualifying rider and he announced Gavin. It wasn't until after the race, back in the pits, that we found out it was a visual override. Since the "Official Scorers" sit on the scaffolding right at the finish line jump, closer to the track than anyone, they saw something we didn't. It sucks for Weston, because like I said, IMO it looked like he got the spot to me and the transponders said he did by .002.

I'm not sure how you can override something that happened faster than a blink of an eye, but it did. If I was the head official, I would've given both riders a spot in the main.
Faith is part of GEICO Honda, which has a lot more pull with the AMA than Weston does. He's filling in for Wil Hahn.

Cyclenews.com Photo

You might have seen GEICO's commercials on TV and banners around the track.
And I'm sure Mike LaRocco (GEICO) and Eric Kehoe (Honda manager) would like to see a red bike in the main vs a nobody Kawi.

I agree about your eyewitness account, Weston should have been in the main.

The AMA needs to decide to use the transponders, or not. It will only cause doubt and confusion within the sport.
Bad call by the AMA.
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 10:16am
It is not reality it is what you think should be.
The teams are not racing for outside sponsor money.....they are presenting the team to any outside sponsor as worth their promotional investment.
That doesn't give the sponsor any rights after they sign the check.

At no point does that give them any legal recourse you are way off base since no such relationship exists beyond your extrapolation here.
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 10:24am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 10:25am
It's called contract law.......Feld has no express or implied contract with the sponsors thus without some type of gross negligence there is no legal grounds for the sponsors to be involved.

I realize you aren't going to agree so I will stop here, bookmark this for the end of the season so you can tell me how "wrong" I am.....lol.
SteveS
Posts
5600
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WV US
2/20/2012 10:26am
tmphotoart wrote:
Faith is part of GEICO Honda, which has a lot more pull with the AMA than Weston does. He's filling in for Wil Hahn. [img]http://www.cyclenews.com/files/news_articles/supercross/0112lagallery/03IMG_2932.jpg[/img] Cyclenews.com...
Faith is part of GEICO Honda, which has a lot more pull with the AMA than Weston does. He's filling in for Wil Hahn.

Cyclenews.com Photo

You might have seen GEICO's commercials on TV and banners around the track.
And I'm sure Mike LaRocco (GEICO) and Eric Kehoe (Honda manager) would like to see a red bike in the main vs a nobody Kawi.

I agree about your eyewitness account, Weston should have been in the main.

The AMA needs to decide to use the transponders, or not. It will only cause doubt and confusion within the sport.
Bad call by the AMA.
There's no deciding to do. The rule says that in close finishes, the scorekeepers have the final say on finishing order. Transponders are never mentioned in the rules.
JBlain619
Posts
1719
Joined
6/10/2010
Location
Severna Park, MD US
2/20/2012 10:26am
tmphotoart wrote:
Faith is part of GEICO Honda, which has a lot more pull with the AMA than Weston does. He's filling in for Wil Hahn. [img]http://www.cyclenews.com/files/news_articles/supercross/0112lagallery/03IMG_2932.jpg[/img] Cyclenews.com...
Faith is part of GEICO Honda, which has a lot more pull with the AMA than Weston does. He's filling in for Wil Hahn.

Cyclenews.com Photo

You might have seen GEICO's commercials on TV and banners around the track.
And I'm sure Mike LaRocco (GEICO) and Eric Kehoe (Honda manager) would like to see a red bike in the main vs a nobody Kawi.

I agree about your eyewitness account, Weston should have been in the main.

The AMA needs to decide to use the transponders, or not. It will only cause doubt and confusion within the sport.
Bad call by the AMA.
But Faith isn't on Geico's team anymore. He's a privateer just like Weston. He was only filling in for Hahn in the 250 West. He was on his own bike. He was still wearing Alias gear, and I assume they picked him up for the rest of the year. See below.

http://www.racerxonline.com/2012/02/15/faith-a-faithful-fill-in-for-gei…
jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
2/20/2012 10:32am
As I said originally......that's not reality....that is what you want it to be.
Big difference.
Sherwood
Posts
3690
Joined
5/12/2010
Location
US
2/20/2012 11:03am
The FIM/AMA is no longer needed in this sport.
2/20/2012 11:17am Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 11:19am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
That wasn't nearly as bad as Vince Friese taking out Bogle in Dallas. Im glad Bogle slapped him.
racer369 wrote:
Whats your problem dickhead?
It was a joke moron. Lou said it was the FIM that made the call yet we have 5 more pages of people bashing the AMA. Why let the facts get in the way of a good AMA bashing. Friese was just a random choice of a guy who wasnt there like the AMA who didnt make the call.
Big Tex27
Posts
141
Joined
10/6/2011
Location
Dallas, TX US
2/20/2012 11:24am
i was sitting 3 rows up from the floor on the 50 yard line and the kawi definatly had it cause our group was taking bets faith would take him out in the last conner... so we had a close eye on it and the kawi def had it... then i seen faith lining up in the main and just figured someone withdrew..
MERC
Posts
49
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Charlotte, NC US
2/20/2012 12:14pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 12:56pm
My big question is what happens when it really counts for a big win or championship.
wawazat
Posts
816
Joined
5/6/2011
Location
Corona, CA US
2/20/2012 12:42pm
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or transponders. Not over rule the transponder cause of what you thought u saw. Ten people can look at something close and see it different ways. Ten people can look at two pieces of paper with numbers on it and know which one is lower.
SteveS
Posts
5600
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WV US
2/20/2012 1:05pm
wawazat wrote:
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or...
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or transponders. Not over rule the transponder cause of what you thought u saw. Ten people can look at something close and see it different ways. Ten people can look at two pieces of paper with numbers on it and know which one is lower.
What are you going to do if you go totally by transponder finish and then you have a finish in which there is a finish line camera and the camera shows one bike winning and the transponder shows the other? People tend to believe what they can see.

In addition, the system currently is set up so that a race could be scored entirely manually, without benefit of electronics. The electronics help them to put out results faster, and offer more data, but the fail safe is scorekeepers.
Sparkalounger
Posts
1322
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Minneapolis, MN US
2/20/2012 2:36pm
wawazat wrote:
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or...
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or transponders. Not over rule the transponder cause of what you thought u saw. Ten people can look at something close and see it different ways. Ten people can look at two pieces of paper with numbers on it and know which one is lower.
SteveS wrote:
What are you going to do if you go totally by transponder finish and then you have a finish in which there is a finish line...
What are you going to do if you go totally by transponder finish and then you have a finish in which there is a finish line camera and the camera shows one bike winning and the transponder shows the other? People tend to believe what they can see.

In addition, the system currently is set up so that a race could be scored entirely manually, without benefit of electronics. The electronics help them to put out results faster, and offer more data, but the fail safe is scorekeepers.
one would think you would go to the camera like every other professional sport...
RACEGUY
Posts
1894
Joined
8/25/2009
Location
Moncton CA
2/20/2012 3:06pm Edited Date/Time 2/20/2012 3:08pm
Matthes tweeted answers to your questions. I'm sure you'll find something more eloquent at either PulpMX or ProMotoTalk...soon.
SteveS
Posts
5600
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WV US
2/20/2012 3:39pm
wawazat wrote:
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or...
FIM the AMA have it backwards, you can do visual finishes if it isn't close. In case of a close ending, you go to video or transponders. Not over rule the transponder cause of what you thought u saw. Ten people can look at something close and see it different ways. Ten people can look at two pieces of paper with numbers on it and know which one is lower.
SteveS wrote:
What are you going to do if you go totally by transponder finish and then you have a finish in which there is a finish line...
What are you going to do if you go totally by transponder finish and then you have a finish in which there is a finish line camera and the camera shows one bike winning and the transponder shows the other? People tend to believe what they can see.

In addition, the system currently is set up so that a race could be scored entirely manually, without benefit of electronics. The electronics help them to put out results faster, and offer more data, but the fail safe is scorekeepers.
one would think you would go to the camera like every other professional sport...
According to the rulebook, the camera is where they are supposed to go--if there is one. If there isn't, then it falls to the scorekeepers.
Rizzo
Posts
1019
Joined
2/2/2010
Location
US
2/20/2012 4:20pm
wet paint wrote:
Photobucket


Photobucket


Photobucket
GAME, SET, MATCH!

Looks like Wet Paint is applying for a job as a FIM Visual Director. Note to FIM, don't fuck with electronics, they are everwhere and they will get you.

Post a reply to: Visual override by the AMA?

The Latest