Very interesting demo on triple clamps.

yzf162
Posts
259
Joined
6/23/2020
Location
Grant Park, IL US
11/9/2020 11:12am
Interesting demo for the xtrig. All the talk about coatings and friction being needed but we have this amount of stiction in the front end from clamps. Even worse when someone doesn't use a torque wrench. Wonder how the ride enginering, luxon, pc ECT ECT clamps would work?

5
3
|
rjg
Posts
433
Joined
9/27/2016
Location
CA
11/9/2020 11:36am Edited Date/Time 11/9/2020 11:43am
I watched this test being performed at home on kyb sss forks with oem triples and they moved like the xtrigs with ease. It was not attempted on wp/ktm setup but from what I witnessed with KYB/yam setup it makes me think this product demonstration is a marketing scam.

Or WP/ktm really are that shitty compared to all other and we are all suckers for believing their marketing BS as well.
I am not saying that xtrigs are junk, (they have other good attributes) I am just saying that it is a clever selling tactic.
4
kary
Posts
134
Joined
7/28/2016
Location
FR
11/9/2020 11:53am
It is a marketing scam ! After seeing this video, a French suspension tuner (HRS Suspension if I remember well) did the same thing with a real WP / KTM clamp and it was sliding like butter !
1
1
Luxon MX
Posts
1052
Joined
11/6/2017
Location
San Diego, CA US
Fantasy
1228th
11/9/2020 11:59am
yzf162 wrote:
Interesting demo for the xtrig. All the talk about coatings and friction being needed but we have this amount of stiction in the front end from...
Interesting demo for the xtrig. All the talk about coatings and friction being needed but we have this amount of stiction in the front end from clamps. Even worse when someone doesn't use a torque wrench. Wonder how the ride enginering, luxon, pc ECT ECT clamps would work?

We've done the exact same test, but had different results... The reality is that any triple clamp will distort the lower tubes and cause stiction as the bushing passes through the interface if there is too much torque applied. But if the clamps are properly machined and you use the correct torque values, it's really a non-issue regardless of which clamps you run.

More info here:
https://luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-split-triple-clamps-flex-advantage.html
2
Brent
Posts
5293
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Party in Temecula, CA US
11/9/2020 12:29pm
I remember reading somewhere where Kris Keefer said to try a lower torque setting on the lower clamp bolts for the KTM?
Did I remember that correctly?

Was that for the stock clamp or the x-trig/KTM power sports clamp? Or am I just high?

The Shop

Falcon
Posts
10034
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
Fantasy
765th
11/9/2020 12:39pm
^ You are not high. The torque specs for the lower clamp are smaller than the ones on top, for this very reason. Even the stockers require less torque at bottom - see the owner's manual for verification.

Also, the torque values are way lower than most people realize. My YZ calls for 17 Lb./ft at top and 14 Lb./ft on bottom.
4
DynoDan22
Posts
773
Joined
9/7/2011
Location
Victorville, CA US
11/9/2020 12:43pm
KTM top clamp pinch bolts are 12.5 ft-lb and 9.0 ft-lb for the lower pinch bolts. Pretty low compared to the Japanese which, as mentioned above, are 17 and 14 ft-lbs.
2
Rotaholic
Posts
1405
Joined
4/2/2013
Location
NZ
11/9/2020 1:14pm
The KTM stock tripple clamps have the torque setting stamped on them, pretty cool feature
5
mx317
Posts
4529
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
11/9/2020 1:26pm
My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom
1
11/9/2020 5:15pm
mx317 wrote:
My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom
Pretty sure my ‘11 YZ 250 is that way also
1
Alex.434
Posts
441
Joined
12/12/2016
Location
Warner Springs, CA US
11/9/2020 5:24pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2020 5:26pm
Brent wrote:
I remember reading somewhere where Kris Keefer said to try a lower torque setting on the lower clamp bolts for the KTM? Did I remember that...
I remember reading somewhere where Kris Keefer said to try a lower torque setting on the lower clamp bolts for the KTM?
Did I remember that correctly?

Was that for the stock clamp or the x-trig/KTM power sports clamp? Or am I just high?
I got you.

https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2019/12/1/wp-xact-pro-…

Keefer, is there something I can do about the rigidity I am gaining with the WP XACT Pro Component fork”? Yes, going to a WP/KTM Factory Triple Clamp will help with some of the rigidity that the stock clamps come with. Also, you can go to a bottom triple clamp torque spec of 9N/m. Both will help with comfort on braking bumps, slap downs, as well as get you less rigidity feel through your handlebars.

I have Factory Clamps and Cone Valves on the way... so been reading all this stuff again lately.

Also: https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2020/3/5/husqvarna-fc4…
2
Brent
Posts
5293
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Party in Temecula, CA US
11/9/2020 6:18pm
Alex.434 wrote:
I got you. https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2019/12/1/wp-xact-pro-components-real-world-review [i][b]Keefer, is there something I can do about the rigidity I am gaining with the WP XACT Pro Component fork[/b]”? Yes, going...
I got you.

https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2019/12/1/wp-xact-pro-…

Keefer, is there something I can do about the rigidity I am gaining with the WP XACT Pro Component fork”? Yes, going to a WP/KTM Factory Triple Clamp will help with some of the rigidity that the stock clamps come with. Also, you can go to a bottom triple clamp torque spec of 9N/m. Both will help with comfort on braking bumps, slap downs, as well as get you less rigidity feel through your handlebars.

I have Factory Clamps and Cone Valves on the way... so been reading all this stuff again lately.

Also: https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2020/3/5/husqvarna-fc4…
I knew I saw that somewhere, thanks!
1
Supermega1
Posts
113
Joined
5/22/2018
Location
Henderson, NV US
11/9/2020 7:27pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2020 7:28pm
Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? Woohoo
3
AJ565
Posts
2075
Joined
3/12/2012
Location
San Antonio, TX US
11/9/2020 8:19pm
Supermega1 wrote:
Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? Woohoo
Snap on, mac, Matco, cornwell, ect. All have a digital torque wrench.
Bruce372
Posts
6342
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
11/9/2020 11:30pm
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
4
1
AJ565
Posts
2075
Joined
3/12/2012
Location
San Antonio, TX US
11/10/2020 6:18am
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
If you use the same torque wrench each time, yes. A cheap torque wrench maybe not, but a higher end one that is actually calibrated then yes.

Us mortals being able to feel the difference, I'd say no as well.
Falcon
Posts
10034
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
Fantasy
765th
11/10/2020 8:29am
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
AJ565 wrote:
If you use the same torque wrench each time, yes. A cheap torque wrench maybe not, but a higher end one that is actually calibrated then...
If you use the same torque wrench each time, yes. A cheap torque wrench maybe not, but a higher end one that is actually calibrated then yes.

Us mortals being able to feel the difference, I'd say no as well.
I'd be very surprised If I could tell the difference between 9 Lb./ft and 50 Lb./ft on the track. Woohoo
1
mxtech1
Posts
1954
Joined
7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL US
11/10/2020 8:47am
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
Yes.

The wrenching accuracy for a standard clicker-style torque wrench is +/-20%. Set the wrench for the middle of the range to take the wrenching accuracy into consideration.

10.5 Nm +/-20% is 8.4 to 12.6 Nm - this helps understand why the OEM lists the torque range at 9 -12 Nm.

If you're one of those weirdos that greases bolts before installing, the nominal torque needs to be slightly reduced.

yak651
Posts
6640
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Appleton, WI US
Fantasy
168th
11/10/2020 10:14am
shouldn't be loosening the bolts with the torque wrench...
7
piscokid
Posts
301
Joined
10/22/2013
Location
OH US
11/10/2020 10:20am
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
One most certainly can. If you don't believe it, try it yourself. Just guess or snug them up by hand and go ride and then use the torque wrench. World of difference.
Luxon MX
Posts
1052
Joined
11/6/2017
Location
San Diego, CA US
Fantasy
1228th
11/10/2020 10:28am
Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after. The clamping load is proportional to torque, but dependent on friction. So the repeatability of the clamping load depends on the repeatability of the torque wrench AND the consistency of the friction coefficient.

If your wrench is +/- 20% accurate and your friction varies +/- 10% (bolt coatings, worn bolts, dirty threads, some oil got on it, etc. can easily change this), then your actual clamping load can vary quite a bit.

Whether someone can notice that or not is questionable. Certainly if the bolts are too tight, it will cause bushing binding and that will be noticable. But if the bolts are not so tight that they cause that binding, I doubt anyone will be able to feel it. Unless they know that change was made, then they'll absolutely feel it! Laughing

6
BobPA
Posts
8023
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
11/10/2020 10:49am Edited Date/Time 11/10/2020 10:49am
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
mxtech1 wrote:
Yes. The wrenching accuracy for a standard clicker-style torque wrench is +/-20%. Set the wrench for the middle of the range to take the wrenching accuracy...
Yes.

The wrenching accuracy for a standard clicker-style torque wrench is +/-20%. Set the wrench for the middle of the range to take the wrenching accuracy into consideration.

10.5 Nm +/-20% is 8.4 to 12.6 Nm - this helps understand why the OEM lists the torque range at 9 -12 Nm.

If you're one of those weirdos that greases bolts before installing, the nominal torque needs to be slightly reduced.

Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.
4
racer187x
Posts
99
Joined
6/25/2011
Location
Tucson, AZ US
11/10/2020 4:25pm
BobPA wrote:
Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.
Those weren't torque-to-yield were they?


Laughing
2
crowe660
Posts
2005
Joined
8/15/2020
Location
US
Fantasy
3962nd
11/10/2020 4:55pm
mx317 wrote:
My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom
As crazy as it sounds, that torque setting was the difference between my 19 staying locked in a rut and standing up mid turn.

I torqued my clamps too tight when I moved my tubes last year, and spent half a day bitching about how there was no way that bike could have won any kind of shootout before I realized my torque wrench was a mile off..
1
mxtech1
Posts
1954
Joined
7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL US
11/10/2020 5:20pm
BobPA wrote:
Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.
Different application. That joint is traditionally spec’d as a wet joint.
1
kdawson252
Posts
118
Joined
7/13/2017
Location
Washougal, WA US
11/14/2020 12:10pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track? I am struggling...
Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.
I can't tell the difference between 3 clicks on compression... so no.
1
Robgvx
Posts
3681
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
GB
11/15/2020 1:37am
Another tick for conventional forks then...
piscokid
Posts
301
Joined
10/22/2013
Location
OH US
11/15/2020 11:08am Edited Date/Time 11/15/2020 11:10am
Luxon MX wrote:
Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after...
Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after. The clamping load is proportional to torque, but dependent on friction. So the repeatability of the clamping load depends on the repeatability of the torque wrench AND the consistency of the friction coefficient.

If your wrench is +/- 20% accurate and your friction varies +/- 10% (bolt coatings, worn bolts, dirty threads, some oil got on it, etc. can easily change this), then your actual clamping load can vary quite a bit.

Whether someone can notice that or not is questionable. Certainly if the bolts are too tight, it will cause bushing binding and that will be noticable. But if the bolts are not so tight that they cause that binding, I doubt anyone will be able to feel it. Unless they know that change was made, then they'll absolutely feel it! Laughing

That is really what I was referring to. I have buddies that just put the socket on and give the snug and then a little extra pull to be satisfied. They were most certainly over tight. I had my buddy go out and do a couple of hot laps, pulled him off to the side, loosened them with a socket and then torqued them to spec. He pulled over after 1 lap and couldn't believe he could tell a difference. Does he know if you adjust his clickers? Probably not, but he now knows his forks were binding when he tightened them without a torque wrench!
1
Brent
Posts
5293
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Party in Temecula, CA US
11/15/2020 2:37pm
I backed off the factory setting on my KTM Friday to 9NM for the lower clamps, and I could feel the difference on the choppy corners.

I also found out I need a better torque wrench that goes that low on the NM scale.

I just wonder how much better the X-trig clamps really are at limiting stiction in the fork tubes, are they worth the 500 bucks?
1
imoto34
Posts
3781
Joined
1/28/2010
Location
TN US
Fantasy
3151st
11/15/2020 3:24pm
Supermega1 wrote:
Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? Woohoo
AJ565 wrote:
Snap on, mac, Matco, cornwell, ect. All have a digital torque wrench.
Prescion instruments also makes a great torque wrench
Bruce372
Posts
6342
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
11/15/2020 6:42pm
Luxon MX wrote:
Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after...
Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after. The clamping load is proportional to torque, but dependent on friction. So the repeatability of the clamping load depends on the repeatability of the torque wrench AND the consistency of the friction coefficient.

If your wrench is +/- 20% accurate and your friction varies +/- 10% (bolt coatings, worn bolts, dirty threads, some oil got on it, etc. can easily change this), then your actual clamping load can vary quite a bit.

Whether someone can notice that or not is questionable. Certainly if the bolts are too tight, it will cause bushing binding and that will be noticable. But if the bolts are not so tight that they cause that binding, I doubt anyone will be able to feel it. Unless they know that change was made, then they'll absolutely feel it! Laughing

This is my point... if someone says torque to 9nM for the best experience, then imagine 3 guys... one has a new triple clamp, another has anti sieze on the threads and then finally, the last guy has corroded bolts from pressure washing.

Even if they all torque to 9nM with the same tool, the experience will be different.

Now throw in they all have a different tool.. then who knows the effect will be, let alone all the other variables.
1

Post a reply to: Very interesting demo on triple clamps.

The Latest