Very interesting demo on triple clamps.

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11/9/2020 11:12 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/9/2020 1:54 PM

Interesting demo for the xtrig. All the talk about coatings and friction being needed but we have this amount of stiction in the front end from clamps. Even worse when someone doesn't use a torque wrench. Wonder how the ride enginering, luxon, pc ECT ECT clamps would work?

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11/9/2020 11:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/9/2020 11:43 AM

I watched this test being performed at home on kyb sss forks with oem triples and they moved like the xtrigs with ease. It was not attempted on wp/ktm setup but from what I witnessed with KYB/yam setup it makes me think this product demonstration is a marketing scam.

Or WP/ktm really are that shitty compared to all other and we are all suckers for believing their marketing BS as well.
I am not saying that xtrigs are junk, (they have other good attributes) I am just saying that it is a clever selling tactic.

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11/9/2020 11:53 AM

It is a marketing scam ! After seeing this video, a French suspension tuner (HRS Suspension if I remember well) did the same thing with a real WP / KTM clamp and it was sliding like butter !

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11/9/2020 11:59 AM

yzf162 wrote:

Interesting demo for the xtrig. All the talk about coatings and friction being needed but we have this amount of stiction in the front end from clamps. Even worse when someone doesn't use a torque wrench. Wonder how the ride enginering, luxon, pc ECT ECT clamps would work?

We've done the exact same test, but had different results... The reality is that any triple clamp will distort the lower tubes and cause stiction as the bushing passes through the interface if there is too much torque applied. But if the clamps are properly machined and you use the correct torque values, it's really a non-issue regardless of which clamps you run.

More info here:
https://luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-split-triple-clamps-flex-advantage.html

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

11/9/2020 12:29 PM

I remember reading somewhere where Kris Keefer said to try a lower torque setting on the lower clamp bolts for the KTM?
Did I remember that correctly?

Was that for the stock clamp or the x-trig/KTM power sports clamp? Or am I just high?

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11/9/2020 12:39 PM

^ You are not high. The torque specs for the lower clamp are smaller than the ones on top, for this very reason. Even the stockers require less torque at bottom - see the owner's manual for verification.

Also, the torque values are way lower than most people realize. My YZ calls for 17 Lb./ft at top and 14 Lb./ft on bottom.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

11/9/2020 12:43 PM

KTM top clamp pinch bolts are 12.5 ft-lb and 9.0 ft-lb for the lower pinch bolts. Pretty low compared to the Japanese which, as mentioned above, are 17 and 14 ft-lbs.

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11/9/2020 1:14 PM

The KTM stock tripple clamps have the torque setting stamped on them, pretty cool feature

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11/9/2020 1:26 PM

My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

11/9/2020 5:15 PM

mx317 wrote:

My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom

Pretty sure my ‘11 YZ 250 is that way also

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2011 Yamaha YZ 250 -MX
1996 Yamaha Banshee 350 -Trails
1982 Chevy S10
2005 Pontiac GTO -451rwhp

11/9/2020 5:24 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/9/2020 5:26 PM

Brent wrote:

I remember reading somewhere where Kris Keefer said to try a lower torque setting on the lower clamp bolts for the KTM?
Did I remember that correctly?

Was that for the stock clamp or the x-trig/KTM power sports clamp? Or am I just high?

I got you.

https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2019/12/1/wp-xact-pro-components-real-world-review

Keefer, is there something I can do about the rigidity I am gaining with the WP XACT Pro Component fork”? Yes, going to a WP/KTM Factory Triple Clamp will help with some of the rigidity that the stock clamps come with. Also, you can go to a bottom triple clamp torque spec of 9N/m. Both will help with comfort on braking bumps, slap downs, as well as get you less rigidity feel through your handlebars.

I have Factory Clamps and Cone Valves on the way... so been reading all this stuff again lately.

Also: https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2020/3/5/husqvarna-fc450-triple-clamp-offset-test

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11/9/2020 6:18 PM

Alex.434 wrote:

I got you.

https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2019/12/1/wp-xact-pro-components-real-world-review

Keefer, is there something I can do about the rigidity I am gaining with the WP XACT Pro Component fork”? Yes, going to a WP/KTM Factory Triple Clamp will help with some of the rigidity that the stock clamps come with. Also, you can go to a bottom triple clamp torque spec of 9N/m. Both will help with comfort on braking bumps, slap downs, as well as get you less rigidity feel through your handlebars.

I have Factory Clamps and Cone Valves on the way... so been reading all this stuff again lately.

Also: https://www.keeferinctesting.com/offroad-testing/2020/3/5/husqvarna-fc450-triple-clamp-offset-test

I knew I saw that somewhere, thanks!

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11/9/2020 7:27 PM
Edited Date/Time: 11/9/2020 7:28 PM

Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? w00t

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11/9/2020 8:19 PM

Supermega1 wrote:

Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? w00t

Snap on, mac, Matco, cornwell, ect. All have a digital torque wrench.

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2018 KTM 250sx
Instagram CamaroAJ

11/9/2020 11:30 PM

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

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11/10/2020 6:18 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

If you use the same torque wrench each time, yes. A cheap torque wrench maybe not, but a higher end one that is actually calibrated then yes.

Us mortals being able to feel the difference, I'd say no as well.

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2018 KTM 250sx
Instagram CamaroAJ

11/10/2020 8:29 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

AJ565 wrote:

If you use the same torque wrench each time, yes. A cheap torque wrench maybe not, but a higher end one that is actually calibrated then yes.

Us mortals being able to feel the difference, I'd say no as well.

I'd be very surprised If I could tell the difference between 9 Lb./ft and 50 Lb./ft on the track. w00t

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Braaapin' aint easy.

11/10/2020 8:47 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

Yes.

The wrenching accuracy for a standard clicker-style torque wrench is +/-20%. Set the wrench for the middle of the range to take the wrenching accuracy into consideration.

10.5 Nm +/-20% is 8.4 to 12.6 Nm - this helps understand why the OEM lists the torque range at 9 -12 Nm.

If you're one of those weirdos that greases bolts before installing, the nominal torque needs to be slightly reduced.

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11/10/2020 10:14 AM

shouldn't be loosening the bolts with the torque wrench...

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11/10/2020 10:20 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

One most certainly can. If you don't believe it, try it yourself. Just guess or snug them up by hand and go ride and then use the torque wrench. World of difference.

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"Hope is not a strategy"

11/10/2020 10:28 AM

Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after. The clamping load is proportional to torque, but dependent on friction. So the repeatability of the clamping load depends on the repeatability of the torque wrench AND the consistency of the friction coefficient.

If your wrench is +/- 20% accurate and your friction varies +/- 10% (bolt coatings, worn bolts, dirty threads, some oil got on it, etc. can easily change this), then your actual clamping load can vary quite a bit.

Whether someone can notice that or not is questionable. Certainly if the bolts are too tight, it will cause bushing binding and that will be noticable. But if the bolts are not so tight that they cause that binding, I doubt anyone will be able to feel it. Unless they know that change was made, then they'll absolutely feel it! laughing

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Billy Wight
Luxon MX
@LuxonMX
https://luxonmx.com
Motocross Components Engineered for Performance

11/10/2020 10:49 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/10/2020 10:49 AM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

mxtech1 wrote:

Yes.

The wrenching accuracy for a standard clicker-style torque wrench is +/-20%. Set the wrench for the middle of the range to take the wrenching accuracy into consideration.

10.5 Nm +/-20% is 8.4 to 12.6 Nm - this helps understand why the OEM lists the torque range at 9 -12 Nm.

If you're one of those weirdos that greases bolts before installing, the nominal torque needs to be slightly reduced.

Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

11/10/2020 4:25 PM

BobPA wrote:

Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.

Those weren't torque-to-yield were they?


laughing

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11/10/2020 4:55 PM

mx317 wrote:

My 2020 YZ450 IS 15 FT/LB top and bottom

As crazy as it sounds, that torque setting was the difference between my 19 staying locked in a rut and standing up mid turn.

I torqued my clamps too tight when I moved my tubes last year, and spent half a day bitching about how there was no way that bike could have won any kind of shootout before I realized my torque wrench was a mile off..

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11/10/2020 5:20 PM

BobPA wrote:

Just torqued some big block Chevy rod bolts using the ARP supplied lube....Put me in the weirdo category.

Different application. That joint is traditionally spec’d as a wet joint.

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11/14/2020 12:10 PM

Bruce372 wrote:

Can anyone actually precisely, accurately and repeatably torque triple clamps between 9 and 12 N/m let alone tell the difference on the track?

I am struggling to believe that.

I can't tell the difference between 3 clicks on compression... so no.

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11/15/2020 1:37 AM

Another tick for conventional forks then...

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11/15/2020 11:08 AM
Edited Date/Time: 11/15/2020 11:10 AM

Luxon MX wrote:

Repeatability of the torque (and the torque wrench) is important, but not actually the parameter of interest. Repeatability of the clamping load is what we're after. The clamping load is proportional to torque, but dependent on friction. So the repeatability of the clamping load depends on the repeatability of the torque wrench AND the consistency of the friction coefficient.

If your wrench is +/- 20% accurate and your friction varies +/- 10% (bolt coatings, worn bolts, dirty threads, some oil got on it, etc. can easily change this), then your actual clamping load can vary quite a bit.

Whether someone can notice that or not is questionable. Certainly if the bolts are too tight, it will cause bushing binding and that will be noticable. But if the bolts are not so tight that they cause that binding, I doubt anyone will be able to feel it. Unless they know that change was made, then they'll absolutely feel it! laughing

That is really what I was referring to. I have buddies that just put the socket on and give the snug and then a little extra pull to be satisfied. They were most certainly over tight. I had my buddy go out and do a couple of hot laps, pulled him off to the side, loosened them with a socket and then torqued them to spec. He pulled over after 1 lap and couldn't believe he could tell a difference. Does he know if you adjust his clickers? Probably not, but he now knows his forks were binding when he tightened them without a torque wrench!

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"Hope is not a strategy"

11/15/2020 2:37 PM

I backed off the factory setting on my KTM Friday to 9NM for the lower clamps, and I could feel the difference on the choppy corners.

I also found out I need a better torque wrench that goes that low on the NM scale.

I just wonder how much better the X-trig clamps really are at limiting stiction in the fork tubes, are they worth the 500 bucks?

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11/15/2020 3:24 PM

Supermega1 wrote:

Sweet clamps and all but...

Does anyone know who makes that torque wrench? w00t

AJ565 wrote:

Snap on, mac, Matco, cornwell, ect. All have a digital torque wrench.

Prescion instruments also makes a great torque wrench

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