Unobtainium parts

1/15/2021 8:35am
Yeah I bet they do. That doesnt mean a team like smarttop couldn't fabricate there own parts just the way they want them. So why would...
Yeah I bet they do. That doesnt mean a team like smarttop couldn't fabricate there own parts just the way they want them. So why would a factory team be any better off. a mx bike is relatively basic, the rider usually limits the bike not the other way round. Its not as though they're racing F1GP and have 300million budget..
Rickyisms wrote:
Mechanics, budget, resources and testing equipment probably hold back MCR from making their own parts, but they’re are helped out by HRC and get some factory...
Mechanics, budget, resources and testing equipment probably hold back MCR from making their own parts, but they’re are helped out by HRC and get some factory parts from them.
Lol 'factory parts' doesnt answer my question. Im asking specifically what can the factory guys make that smaller teams can not as all anyone ever says...
Lol 'factory parts' doesnt answer my question. Im asking specifically what can the factory guys make that smaller teams can not as all anyone ever says is 'factory parts'. They're just mx bikes, compared to other motorsports there pretty basic.
The oem's have the money and facilitation to build and test parts in house for a bike that is manufactured at home. The ins and outs of the bike prints/schematics is owned by one company and only that company can truly build parts that would benefit the bikes architecture as they have the tooling that is essential. These parts sometimes called (works parts) are in reference to lighter, stronger and better quality materials for a longer lasting race component that will be more durable than a factory oem part.
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TeamGreen
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1/15/2021 8:37am
Jmicmoto13 wrote:
You're coming off as annoying.... If you don't get the ECU joke, there's nothing we can do for you here.
slipdog wrote:
I clicked specifically for the ECU joke and would have been disappointed without one...
Never gets old.
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3
1/15/2021 8:39am
CPR wrote:
I remember hearing just the forks on RV’s Kawi were worth $80000. And that was nearly 10 years ago.
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his...
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his forks cost $80k to make?
This cost isn't the standalone cost in materials alone. The cost of the materials are much less. Its the complete process in which you see the finished product in between those clamps.
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Leeham
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1/15/2021 9:07am
Special works brake calipers and works suspension. Stuff in development that nearly has infinite adjustabilty. Literally almost anything. Use your imagination

The Shop

byke
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Auburn, CA US
1/15/2021 9:28am
CPR wrote:
I remember hearing just the forks on RV’s Kawi were worth $80000. And that was nearly 10 years ago.
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his...
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his forks cost $80k to make?
Every single low volume part with any degree of complexity had R&D rolled into the pricing in addition to labor/overhead and that's the bare minimum without any actual profit. The question is actually the reverse, what all do you think counts as "true" pricing? Material only? Material plus direct labor? Material plus direct labor/R&D? Material plus direct labor/R&D/overhead? etc. etc.
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kb228
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Mansfield, OH US
1/15/2021 1:16pm
CPR wrote:
I remember hearing just the forks on RV’s Kawi were worth $80000. And that was nearly 10 years ago.
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his...
this is very hard to believe for me. Someone please explain how a set of forks can cost $80k. Are you talking R&D included? or his forks cost $80k to make?
byke wrote:
Every single low volume part with any degree of complexity had R&D rolled into the pricing in addition to labor/overhead and that's the bare minimum without...
Every single low volume part with any degree of complexity had R&D rolled into the pricing in addition to labor/overhead and that's the bare minimum without any actual profit. The question is actually the reverse, what all do you think counts as "true" pricing? Material only? Material plus direct labor? Material plus direct labor/R&D? Material plus direct labor/R&D/overhead? etc. etc.
All prices include those things...

Cost goes down with volume
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UpTiTe
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1/15/2021 2:21pm
Yeah I bet they do. That doesnt mean a team like smarttop couldn't fabricate there own parts just the way they want them. So why would...
Yeah I bet they do. That doesnt mean a team like smarttop couldn't fabricate there own parts just the way they want them. So why would a factory team be any better off. a mx bike is relatively basic, the rider usually limits the bike not the other way round. Its not as though they're racing F1GP and have 300million budget..
Rickyisms wrote:
Mechanics, budget, resources and testing equipment probably hold back MCR from making their own parts, but they’re are helped out by HRC and get some factory...
Mechanics, budget, resources and testing equipment probably hold back MCR from making their own parts, but they’re are helped out by HRC and get some factory parts from them.
Lol 'factory parts' doesnt answer my question. Im asking specifically what can the factory guys make that smaller teams can not as all anyone ever says...
Lol 'factory parts' doesnt answer my question. Im asking specifically what can the factory guys make that smaller teams can not as all anyone ever says is 'factory parts'. They're just mx bikes, compared to other motorsports there pretty basic.
Not matter how much people want to admit and claim “production rule” teams cheat. One team in particular is real good at it.

Non factory teams can’t change bore and stroke. They can’t change transmission ratios. They can’t change frame geometry. They can’t build flex into a swing arm or frame, some factories do all that.
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kijen
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Jacksonville, FL US
1/15/2021 2:37pm
So lots of talk about cost of R&D etc....that dirves to cost to the exterme, and than you have Luxon who seems to do that quite well and has reasonable prices for triple clamps etc....assume smart tops or others could budget for his expertise and manufacturing. I think the infatuation with being factory is not the part, but have acess to that part in 10 different configuartion to get rhe feel the rider wants. MXA has an article where Mosiman (SP?), was chasing a set up on forks that he basically did not know or could tell the feel he wanted, ended up likeing the setup he orgianlly did not like, but had to go thru trial and error to figure it put. And than you have all the other factory perks, flying to races, nutrition, training etc...i think makes a bigger diffetence than the bike.
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Broseph
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Stevenson, WA US
1/15/2021 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/15/2021 3:29pm
kijen wrote:
So lots of talk about cost of R&D etc....that dirves to cost to the exterme, and than you have Luxon who seems to do that quite...
So lots of talk about cost of R&D etc....that dirves to cost to the exterme, and than you have Luxon who seems to do that quite well and has reasonable prices for triple clamps etc....assume smart tops or others could budget for his expertise and manufacturing. I think the infatuation with being factory is not the part, but have acess to that part in 10 different configuartion to get rhe feel the rider wants. MXA has an article where Mosiman (SP?), was chasing a set up on forks that he basically did not know or could tell the feel he wanted, ended up likeing the setup he orgianlly did not like, but had to go thru trial and error to figure it put. And than you have all the other factory perks, flying to races, nutrition, training etc...i think makes a bigger diffetence than the bike.
The difference between Luxon and the factory teams is that Luxon is selling the triple clamps in large enough quantity to spread out development cost. Both Luxon and factory Honda might spend $50k to develop an optimized set of clamps. If Luxon sells 500 sets, that’s only $100 in development cost for each set. If factory Honda makes 5 sets, those each carry $10k worth of development.

Broad generalizations here, but I think that’s what people are getting at regarding the development cost of factory parts; not that they cost more to develop than normal parts, but that they aren’t for sale so they never get to directly recoup those development costs.
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kkawboy14
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1/15/2021 8:18pm
I thought some guys here said all you need is a stock bike in SX?......
bpaderta
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Fontana, WI US
1/15/2021 10:02pm
The factories have prints, models, and endless amounts of information about the production motorcycle and its manufacturing process. Using that data alone would be a major head start on developing parts to give the race team the feel and performance they are looking for. Not to mention the fact that they have a giant office full of engineers that have been producing motorcycles for decades.
1
tahoeacr
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Stateline, NV US
1/15/2021 10:45pm
A powder coated frame all looks the same. Head angle, wall thickness, even Tungsten added in the skid pl ate area(used to make minimum weight yet keep weight centered). Think a factory team is going to give this to a satellite team and risk getting caught. They will never give or sale all the good stuff and risk being beat. Someone might think they are and are told so for the psychological factor on the rider. This is business.
Satellite teams don't have the budget that everybody thinks they do. Sponsors aren't walking in dropping off 500K checks. I have turned down plenty of offers with them because they didn't have the budget for a proper salary.
Can one make a factory bike? If they had the budget, there are plenty of places around Indy that can make anything from gearboxes to pistons. Want a special compression ratio with an offset wrist pin? Not a problem. But to pay for the tooling there is a minimum order. Now you have enough pistons for everyones practice bike and the kid next door. Doesn't work out on the dyno or test track? Throw it out and start over. Or it works great but the wall thickness is .003 too thin and pistons crack. Make one thicker and the rider doesn't like the fact that the new piston doesn't seem to rev the same. Starting to get the picture. Then you have development time vs off season time. Sponsors are never lined up until the last minute. Get all this together and then where do you get the engineers with the actual experience in SX. You ever hear a NASCAR engine on the rev limiter with the wheels off the ground. All that rev limiter in the air(with no load on the engine) to clear the triple puts tremendous loads on the bearings.
I once tested an engine for a team that had built a long rod motor. They didn't tell me anything about it. Just go try it. Well, the rod ratio was ridiculously high and the piston speeds were higher than F1 engines. Had they told me what they did before I wouldn't have even did a lap. It lasted three laps before the rod broke. This is were the factory team with it's decades of R&D can't be matched. They know the design limits of their bikes. If anyone could have I thought for sure JGR would have done it. But it's a business. The owner wants to make money. He isn't going to spend more money on development than the budget allows. This is race team 101. You know, want to make a million in racing? Start with 2 million.

Here are some costs for the team I work for now. I thought some of you might find this interesting.
Average cost the driver pays: million a year
Team spends 350K+ a year just for air fare and hotels
20K a weekend rental fees for furniture and such for hospitality. 5K for the carpet that's left at the track and bought new every weekend. No room in the 5 semis that run to the track.
Car costs
new Lexan windshield $3,500
Fuel injector goes out? $7,500
Bend a rim bumping curbs? $3,500 a rim for the Chinese ones.
Crash off course 30-40k damage usually
Bad crash can be 200K and this is with the engine still attached. Not like that Enzo on Mulholland hwy lol.
This is what Chad Reed has to look forward to racing those Lambos.
Wow sorry for the long post. Shouldn't be drinking margaritas while typing.

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Brent
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1/15/2021 10:45pm Edited Date/Time 1/15/2021 10:46pm
I’d love to have a factory 3 speed transmission- 2,3,4 is all you need baby. I’ve never used 1st or 5th gear.
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2
Jmicmoto13
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Troutman, NC US
1/16/2021 5:18am
40acres wrote:
He's asking about specific, one-off factory parts. These "factory ecu" and "torque your sprocket bolts" inside jokes are fucking worn out and annoying. The guy joined...
He's asking about specific, one-off factory parts. These "factory ecu" and "torque your sprocket bolts" inside jokes are fucking worn out and annoying. The guy joined this forum last month, you think he gets 3 year old inside jokes?
I can understand your point and agree with some of it. However, when you're snappy with people's responses and are a dbag about it, what do you expect? Delivery is everything.
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yamahaha131
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Newark, OH US
1/16/2021 7:20pm
JB10 got a factory Honda front brake system and Chad got 52mm bump sticks for his pumpkin.
Both stated they were game changers once they finally got them.
2
Philly215
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Ithaca, NY US
1/16/2021 9:06pm
Reed said with Kawi, you don’t actually buy frames from them you buy blueprints. And that there’s manufacturing error built in to the prints which means you get to make a custom frame basically. It was only a few mm here or there but he was saying it makes a huge difference and is a way around the factory rule that smaller teams just can’t compete with.
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FWYT
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1/16/2021 10:12pm
Philly215 wrote:
Reed said with Kawi, you don’t actually buy frames from them you buy blueprints. And that there’s manufacturing error built in to the prints which means...
Reed said with Kawi, you don’t actually buy frames from them you buy blueprints. And that there’s manufacturing error built in to the prints which means you get to make a custom frame basically. It was only a few mm here or there but he was saying it makes a huge difference and is a way around the factory rule that smaller teams just can’t compete with.
No kidding? That's fascinating. So they take a stock frame and and "adjust" the tolerances to match
the purchased blueprints?
5
2
4DAIVIPAI2K5
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1/17/2021 8:10am
Philly215 wrote:
Reed said with Kawi, you don’t actually buy frames from them you buy blueprints. And that there’s manufacturing error built in to the prints which means...
Reed said with Kawi, you don’t actually buy frames from them you buy blueprints. And that there’s manufacturing error built in to the prints which means you get to make a custom frame basically. It was only a few mm here or there but he was saying it makes a huge difference and is a way around the factory rule that smaller teams just can’t compete with.
FWYT wrote:
No kidding? That's fascinating. So they take a stock frame and and "adjust" the tolerances to match
the purchased blueprints?
That's how I understood it when he was on on the podcast.
1
1
bh
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1/17/2021 8:18am
I’m sure you could make a lot of these “unobtainable” parts, but something like transmissions the unobtainable part is the gear ratios and all the development that went into them. And I don’t thing something like an ecu or the wp air shock are something joe blow with a at home shop could even come close to replicating.
1/17/2021 9:24am
tahoeacr wrote:
A powder coated frame all looks the same. Head angle, wall thickness, even Tungsten added in the skid pl ate area(used to make minimum weight yet...
A powder coated frame all looks the same. Head angle, wall thickness, even Tungsten added in the skid pl ate area(used to make minimum weight yet keep weight centered). Think a factory team is going to give this to a satellite team and risk getting caught. They will never give or sale all the good stuff and risk being beat. Someone might think they are and are told so for the psychological factor on the rider. This is business.
Satellite teams don't have the budget that everybody thinks they do. Sponsors aren't walking in dropping off 500K checks. I have turned down plenty of offers with them because they didn't have the budget for a proper salary.
Can one make a factory bike? If they had the budget, there are plenty of places around Indy that can make anything from gearboxes to pistons. Want a special compression ratio with an offset wrist pin? Not a problem. But to pay for the tooling there is a minimum order. Now you have enough pistons for everyones practice bike and the kid next door. Doesn't work out on the dyno or test track? Throw it out and start over. Or it works great but the wall thickness is .003 too thin and pistons crack. Make one thicker and the rider doesn't like the fact that the new piston doesn't seem to rev the same. Starting to get the picture. Then you have development time vs off season time. Sponsors are never lined up until the last minute. Get all this together and then where do you get the engineers with the actual experience in SX. You ever hear a NASCAR engine on the rev limiter with the wheels off the ground. All that rev limiter in the air(with no load on the engine) to clear the triple puts tremendous loads on the bearings.
I once tested an engine for a team that had built a long rod motor. They didn't tell me anything about it. Just go try it. Well, the rod ratio was ridiculously high and the piston speeds were higher than F1 engines. Had they told me what they did before I wouldn't have even did a lap. It lasted three laps before the rod broke. This is were the factory team with it's decades of R&D can't be matched. They know the design limits of their bikes. If anyone could have I thought for sure JGR would have done it. But it's a business. The owner wants to make money. He isn't going to spend more money on development than the budget allows. This is race team 101. You know, want to make a million in racing? Start with 2 million.

Here are some costs for the team I work for now. I thought some of you might find this interesting.
Average cost the driver pays: million a year
Team spends 350K+ a year just for air fare and hotels
20K a weekend rental fees for furniture and such for hospitality. 5K for the carpet that's left at the track and bought new every weekend. No room in the 5 semis that run to the track.
Car costs
new Lexan windshield $3,500
Fuel injector goes out? $7,500
Bend a rim bumping curbs? $3,500 a rim for the Chinese ones.
Crash off course 30-40k damage usually
Bad crash can be 200K and this is with the engine still attached. Not like that Enzo on Mulholland hwy lol.
This is what Chad Reed has to look forward to racing those Lambos.
Wow sorry for the long post. Shouldn't be drinking margaritas while typing.

Tooling is the deciding factor to all aspects of racing!

Thats why everyone wants that factory ride!!
Ingjr1
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Spring Hill, FL US
1/17/2021 11:59am
I thought that was suppose to be the big advantage with JGR. With their Nascar ties they had massive machining and tooling that other teams didn't have. Didn't work out too well for them.
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DE262
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The bar, OR US
1/17/2021 12:20pm
Allegedly-

A lot of the factory bikes will have parts that appear to be just like the ones on stock bikes- however, a micrometer will often tell you differently. And are lot's of options- often per millimeter (or smaller), both directions.

This goes for motor internals, frames, clamps, mounts- just about everything.

It is also common for these parts to made from a different material- or "mix" of materials altogether.

The above mentioned trans. set-ups are insanely expensive, and not all them work on different tracks, conditions, etc...

Electronics and suspension is a whole other witchcraft by themselves- and money talks.

The days of true, raw "unobtanium parts" has largely passed us by, but a closer look will tell you the general principle is still there.

And thank god. That's how shit evolves and winds up on showroom floors eventually.

We could all be watching spec-class Miata Cup races forever...Cool

Allegedly...
brimx153
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IE
1/17/2021 3:35pm
Superbike teams weren't allowed use aftermarket engine cases in the rules . So the use to take the stock one one s melt them down and re cast them and then they passed lol .i am sure ton s of cheating like this happenes in motocross. Something tells me KTM are the best at "cheating "
1
mx317
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TN US
1/18/2021 5:59am
I could see how they could change frame thickness and maybe use a little different material and get away with it, but basic frame geometry would have to remain the same. The factories have to give the AMA a production frame to use as a standard. Head angle couldn’t be changed on the frame, but with offset steering stem bearings or triple clamps they could change the angle that way. I still think that the biggest difference is a factory teams ability to dial a bike in for each rider and make it fit them.

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