Unique AMA scoring incident…

T-Fish
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Edited Date/Time 6/12/2021 4:24am
Okay, so this happened at a local race. I’m curious how the Vitards would’ve scored this.

I don’t know the two classes in this moto, but it was a double drop and a 4 lap race. Both gates drop, everyone goes. I don’t know the names of the two parties, so I’ll call them rider A and rider B. Prior to the 4th and last lap, rider B gets lapped and finishes the moto. Meanwhile, rider A doesn’t get lapped and is finishing their last lap. During that last lap, rider A eats shit and is knocked out cold. Ten minutes later, rider A gets up and finishes the moto and cutting across the track to do so. In the results, rider A placed one spot ahead of rider B.


The end result doesn’t matter. Rider B doesn’t really care, but for conversation purposes only, who should’ve been scored ahead of who? I don’t know the answer to this! Rider B would have obviously passed unconscious rider A, but wasn’t able to due to being lapped. But, rider A did finish the race (but probably shouldn’t have).
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slipdog
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6/8/2021 6:57pm
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
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pbody
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Rider A should receive either a DNF (must take the checkered flag to be scored) or a DSQ for cutting the track to take the checkered flag.
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The Shop

side-pipe
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Scoring would show rider A completing the 4 laps while rider B was lapped and got the checkers on lap 3. Rider A is scored ahead of Rider B anyway you look at it.
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tobz
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6/8/2021 8:35pm Edited Date/Time 6/8/2021 8:36pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/06/08/496955/s1200_2815065C_9FB1_4134_8A22_D74EC668807F.jpg[/img]

Toast is dough cooked twice
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109
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6/8/2021 9:41pm
Under pro rules rider A finishes ahead even if he doesn’t cross the finish line.
Under amateur rules you have to cross the finish line so if you lap everyone but your bike dies on the last lap you get a dnf.

Had this issue at the AQ at Riverfront. Checkered flag guy lost track of the race. My daughter saw the white flag twice then her bike died on lap 7 of a 4 lap race. She was given dnf even though she had lapped to 4th and some kids were 2 laps behind her.

Ama amateur rules date back to 1970s flat track and no one on the rule committee actively races or attends any races. That’s the issue in a nutshell.
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philG
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6/9/2021 4:18am
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
You have to finish to finish.
VRR7
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6/9/2021 4:33am
Same for Enduro/Hare Scramble

You score on how many laps you do in 3 hours for example. If you get to the finish line with say with a flat tyre at say 2h50. You have to complete another lap or dnf. You can take as long as you you like to finish within reason. Some riders stop around the corner from the finish line then wait for the 3 hours to pass then cross the finish line to ensure a finish (Not top runners obviously)

So similar concept.
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Tim507
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6/9/2021 4:48am
......."During that last lap, rider A eats shit and is knocked out cold"......

Thus rider A never took the checkered flag on the specified lap.....DNF
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wardy
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6/9/2021 5:43am
109 wrote:
Under pro rules rider A finishes ahead even if he doesn’t cross the finish line. Under amateur rules you have to cross the finish line so...
Under pro rules rider A finishes ahead even if he doesn’t cross the finish line.
Under amateur rules you have to cross the finish line so if you lap everyone but your bike dies on the last lap you get a dnf.

Had this issue at the AQ at Riverfront. Checkered flag guy lost track of the race. My daughter saw the white flag twice then her bike died on lap 7 of a 4 lap race. She was given dnf even though she had lapped to 4th and some kids were 2 laps behind her.

Ama amateur rules date back to 1970s flat track and no one on the rule committee actively races or attends any races. That’s the issue in a nutshell.
Ama amateur rules date back to 1970s flat track and no one on the rule committee actively races or attends any races. That’s the issue in a nutshell.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And with that statement...................... you don't know what you are talking about.

most everyone I know on rule committee's have been racing a long time, and most still attend if not all, and a large majority either run events, or race events regularly.

just because a "rule" is old doesn't make it obsolete.
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mx317
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6/9/2021 6:05am
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
philG wrote:
You have to finish to finish.
He said he got up and finished.
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slipdog
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6/9/2021 6:58am
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
philG wrote:
You have to finish to finish.



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yak651
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6/9/2021 7:01am
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
philG wrote:
You have to finish to finish.
Unless it's a pro national...
slipdog
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6/9/2021 7:07am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2021 7:08am
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
philG wrote:
You have to finish to finish.
Admittedly, I didnt know the differences betweeen the amatuer and pro rulebooks but for the sake of this disussion I believe the pro rule should apply. .
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mx317
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6/9/2021 8:10am Edited Date/Time 6/9/2021 8:11am
From my time as an AMA ref, you have to make half the laps and take the checkered flag to be awarded a finish position. This is on the non-pro level.
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109
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mx317 wrote:
From my time as an AMA ref, you have to make half the laps and take the checkered flag to be awarded a finish position. This...
From my time as an AMA ref, you have to make half the laps and take the checkered flag to be awarded a finish position. This is on the non-pro level.
Correct - only racing series I’ve seen with this rule.

Formula 1, MXGP, AMA Supercross / Motocross

If you lap the whole field and your bike dies on the last lap you still win. As it’s physically impossible for the rest of the field to unlap themselves. Best they can do is the same number of laps in a slower time.

The way the amateur rule is written is. If it’s a 10 lap race and your bike dies on lap 9. Someone who’s only done 5 laps but physically passes the checkered flag beats you. That’s just stupid.
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Nairb#70
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6/9/2021 4:42pm
The much larger problem here is that the race was only 4 laps.
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doofus
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6/9/2021 4:53pm
VRR7 wrote:
Same for Enduro/Hare Scramble You score on how many laps you do in 3 hours for example. If you get to the finish line with say...
Same for Enduro/Hare Scramble

You score on how many laps you do in 3 hours for example. If you get to the finish line with say with a flat tyre at say 2h50. You have to complete another lap or dnf. You can take as long as you you like to finish within reason. Some riders stop around the corner from the finish line then wait for the 3 hours to pass then cross the finish line to ensure a finish (Not top runners obviously)

So similar concept.
Huh? If it was a gncc (or any local series I know) you’d be scored for 3 laps.
DA498
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6/9/2021 6:48pm
How can you finish the moto 10 minutes later after being knocked out on the last lap?

How can people rule on this scenario that doesn’t make any sense?

How can I get the 5 minutes back I wasted trying to figure out what the hell your talking about?

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dv12.com
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6/9/2021 8:17pm
T-Fish wrote:
Okay, so this happened at a local race. I’m curious how the Vitards would’ve scored this. I don’t know the two classes in this moto, but...
Okay, so this happened at a local race. I’m curious how the Vitards would’ve scored this.

I don’t know the two classes in this moto, but it was a double drop and a 4 lap race. Both gates drop, everyone goes. I don’t know the names of the two parties, so I’ll call them rider A and rider B. Prior to the 4th and last lap, rider B gets lapped and finishes the moto. Meanwhile, rider A doesn’t get lapped and is finishing their last lap. During that last lap, rider A eats shit and is knocked out cold. Ten minutes later, rider A gets up and finishes the moto and cutting across the track to do so. In the results, rider A placed one spot ahead of rider B.


The end result doesn’t matter. Rider B doesn’t really care, but for conversation purposes only, who should’ve been scored ahead of who? I don’t know the answer to this! Rider B would have obviously passed unconscious rider A, but wasn’t able to due to being lapped. But, rider A did finish the race (but probably shouldn’t have).
Check Dylan’s position at the 2019 San Diego SX. He broke his bike on the last lap. Never crossed the finish line. I think he got 7th. Finished in front of everyone who got lapped.
1
6/9/2021 8:27pm
DA498 wrote:
How can you finish the moto 10 minutes later after being knocked out on the last lap? How can people rule on this scenario that doesn’t...
How can you finish the moto 10 minutes later after being knocked out on the last lap?

How can people rule on this scenario that doesn’t make any sense?

How can I get the 5 minutes back I wasted trying to figure out what the hell your talking about?

This
Radical
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6/10/2021 8:45pm
The pro rules are fair and the amateur rules should be changed to match.
2
Heavyrider
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6/10/2021 9:55pm
Because they were lapped, their race was only 3 laps and the race was over at the finish of lap three.
2
FWYT
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6/10/2021 11:37pm
Interesting! Not as simple as I first thought. Whaddya know!
honda341
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6/11/2021 12:34pm
slipdog wrote:
Rider A crossed the line on lap 4 before rider B so even if he didn't finish the race he still beats rider B.
philG wrote:
You have to finish to finish.
slipdog wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/06/09/497011/s1200_Screenshot_2021_06_09_at_6.56.18_AM.jpg[/img] [embed][/embed]



Happy to see Windham get this win. I remember watching the race and Chad Reed was off the track A LOT. In a mud race, his off the track lines were far superior. Glad to see Karma dealt out so rapidly in that race.
1
6/11/2021 9:56pm Edited Date/Time 6/11/2021 9:58pm
109 wrote:
Under pro rules rider A finishes ahead even if he doesn’t cross the finish line. Under amateur rules you have to cross the finish line so...
Under pro rules rider A finishes ahead even if he doesn’t cross the finish line.
Under amateur rules you have to cross the finish line so if you lap everyone but your bike dies on the last lap you get a dnf.

Had this issue at the AQ at Riverfront. Checkered flag guy lost track of the race. My daughter saw the white flag twice then her bike died on lap 7 of a 4 lap race. She was given dnf even though she had lapped to 4th and some kids were 2 laps behind her.

Ama amateur rules date back to 1970s flat track and no one on the rule committee actively races or attends any races. That’s the issue in a nutshell.
This is dead wrong. Almost everyone on the rules committee attends many race of the year. People like Jeff Cernic, Richard White, Gerhard Ward, Mike Quinn. All people who attend many many many races That being said, you were correct that this probably needs to be looked at further but AMA Motocross commission in their next meeting
mx317
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6/12/2021 4:24am
T-Fish wrote:
Okay, so this happened at a local race. I’m curious how the Vitards would’ve scored this. I don’t know the two classes in this moto, but...
Okay, so this happened at a local race. I’m curious how the Vitards would’ve scored this.

I don’t know the two classes in this moto, but it was a double drop and a 4 lap race. Both gates drop, everyone goes. I don’t know the names of the two parties, so I’ll call them rider A and rider B. Prior to the 4th and last lap, rider B gets lapped and finishes the moto. Meanwhile, rider A doesn’t get lapped and is finishing their last lap. During that last lap, rider A eats shit and is knocked out cold. Ten minutes later, rider A gets up and finishes the moto and cutting across the track to do so. In the results, rider A placed one spot ahead of rider B.


The end result doesn’t matter. Rider B doesn’t really care, but for conversation purposes only, who should’ve been scored ahead of who? I don’t know the answer to this! Rider B would have obviously passed unconscious rider A, but wasn’t able to due to being lapped. But, rider A did finish the race (but probably shouldn’t have).
dv12.com wrote:
Check Dylan’s position at the 2019 San Diego SX. He broke his bike on the last lap. Never crossed the finish line. I think he got...
Check Dylan’s position at the 2019 San Diego SX. He broke his bike on the last lap. Never crossed the finish line. I think he got 7th. Finished in front of everyone who got lapped.
I remember when this changed. At Gatorback Bailey and Glover lapped the entire 500 class during the moto. Bailey crashed at the bottom of the hill within site of the finish line and was awarded no points and a DNF because he didn't take the checkered flag. He had finished the same amount of laps faster than the one that was given second place. The rule was changed after that and I believe it cost him the 500 title that year (not 100% sure on that). I was there the day it happened.

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