Two-strokes back in 2011 US Supercross !

yosmithy
Profile picture for user yosmithy
Posts
770
Joined
10/29/2006
Location
Austin, TX US
yosmithy 1/2/2011 7:06am
1/2/2011 7:06am
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the smokers equal footing?

SwapperMX
Profile picture for user SwapperMX
Posts
2133
Joined
6/16/2010
Location
AU
SwapperMX 1/2/2011 7:15am
1/2/2011 7:15am
yosmithy wrote:
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the...
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the smokers equal footing?

Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement would weigh too much in the two strokes favour, and the rules have to be "FAIR"
Overdrive
Profile picture for user Overdrive
Posts
1572
Joined
7/13/2008
Location
Fort Myers, FL US
Overdrive 1/2/2011 7:27am
1/2/2011 7:27am
yosmithy wrote:
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the...
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the smokers equal footing?

I always wondered why we started with 400's then went to 426 and now to 450? Was the 400 not enough power to kill off the 2strokes or was it not enough of an advantage? I mean Doug Henry was able to do just fine on the 400. Smile
Sheriff245 1/2/2011 8:24am
1/2/2011 8:24am
yosmithy wrote:
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the...
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the smokers equal footing?

SwapperMX wrote:
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement...
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement would weigh too much in the two strokes favour, and the rules have to be "FAIR"
How can the rules be FAIR and at the same time one engine type not be good enough to compete?

The Shop

See All »
seth505
Profile picture for user seth505
Posts
9375
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
Fantasy
1271st
seth505 1/2/2011 9:44am
1/2/2011 9:44am
SwapperMX wrote:
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement...
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement would weigh too much in the two strokes favour, and the rules have to be "FAIR"
HUH? Dude, the 2stroke motor is more simple, easy to work on, less money to spend on it if something goes wrong, and o ya....makes more power per cc than the 4stroke.

So how is it "not good enough"??
keeptwostrokesalive 1/2/2011 11:42am
1/2/2011 11:42am
SwapperMX wrote:
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement...
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement would weigh too much in the two strokes favour, and the rules have to be "FAIR"
seth505 wrote:
HUH? Dude, the 2stroke motor is more simple, easy to work on, less money to spend on it if something goes wrong, and o ya....makes more...
HUH? Dude, the 2stroke motor is more simple, easy to work on, less money to spend on it if something goes wrong, and o ya....makes more power per cc than the 4stroke.

So how is it "not good enough"??
Guys im pretty sure swapper is being sarcastic.
seth505
Profile picture for user seth505
Posts
9375
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
Fantasy
1271st
seth505 1/2/2011 11:48am
1/2/2011 11:48am
dammit, my sarcasm meter is probably broke yet again haha
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 1/2/2011 12:10pm
1/2/2011 12:10pm
newmann wrote:
The victory lies in the fact that there are shitloads of 4 stroke dust collectors in the dealerships. The 2 stroke fans are currently speaking with...
The victory lies in the fact that there are shitloads of 4 stroke dust collectors in the dealerships. The 2 stroke fans are currently speaking with their wallets. Too bad the mfgs. can't build and sell both and everyone would be happy......well that and a fair displacement rule in pro racing. Anyone who thinks the oem's couldn't produce both are just smoking crack. They don't seem to have any problem building thirty different 4 wheelers or eighty different cruisers.

It's one thing when a few message board wackos go off on something but there are 16,000 views on this thread started because DV , a proffessional racer turned team manager is bringing a 2 stroke to the gate. Jeremy McGrath commented on national television that the big heavy 450's don't like to stop or turn, that in itself should make the four stroke sheep take notice. Mitch Payton talking about how he can't do things in house anymore because he is so dependent on outside vendors to supply him with parts speaks volumes to all who are not blind.
MX7MX wrote:
and at the end of the day, its not going to make a DAMN bit of difference! Nothing is going to change, they keep trying this...
and at the end of the day, its not going to make a DAMN bit of difference! Nothing is going to change, they keep trying this same pipe dream, both indoors and out, year after year and NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING changes. Your little comment about vendors to supply parts, well that CREATED jobs, isnt that what this country needs?
I highly doubt Mitch's order of camshafts valve seats and valves put any additional people to work to run the automated machinery. He probably orders such small quantities that he's put on the back burner if truth be known. Why else would he make the statement of being dependent on others if it posed zero problems. Like he said, twenty million dollars worth of equipment to make a hundred thousand dollars worth of parts. And those pieces go into assembling a cylinder head that when complete sells for five grand and up. How many people are lining up to buy those two at a time so little Johnny can make the big time?
newmann
Profile picture for user newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
newmann 1/2/2011 12:13pm
1/2/2011 12:13pm
Oh heck, 20,000 views so far. Wonder how many egos at the Big 4 have gotten bruised from reading this so far? I'm sure the marketing departments check in from time to time when the red flag starts waving.
dub161
Profile picture for user dub161
Posts
3
Joined
6/21/2010
Location
Eugene, OR US
dub161 1/2/2011 1:35pm
1/2/2011 1:35pm
Underdog if their ever was....
GG83
Profile picture for user GG83
Posts
154
Joined
9/9/2006
Location
St Cyr Sur Mer FR
GG83 1/2/2011 2:23pm
1/2/2011 2:23pm
According to DV1, the engine is ready, and according to Soub, it rips !
bama205
Profile picture for user bama205
Posts
1490
Joined
10/7/2010
Location
Williamson County, TN US
bama205 1/2/2011 3:39pm
1/2/2011 3:39pm
GuyB wrote:
Have you heard a two-stroke next to a four-stroke? Neither have I. The four-stroke sound covers it up.
dumb
Lightning78
Profile picture for user Lightning78
Posts
6314
Joined
12/12/2007
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
Lightning78 1/2/2011 4:13pm
1/2/2011 4:13pm
yosmithy wrote:
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the...
I'm trying to keep up here. So what was the official reasoning the sanctioning body(s) gave why they won't modify the class rules to allow the smokers equal footing?

Overdrive wrote:
I always wondered why we started with 400's then went to 426 and now to 450? Was the 400 not enough power to kill off the...
I always wondered why we started with 400's then went to 426 and now to 450? Was the 400 not enough power to kill off the 2strokes or was it not enough of an advantage? I mean Doug Henry was able to do just fine on the 400. Smile
I think if it had stayed at 400 and the factories had developed a 400 from the get go by now they would probably be awesome bikes and lighter as well ktm is working on a 350 what's to stop another mfg from building a competitive 400, other than their pride? That might help things a little......both for 2 strokes and safety for riders.
Lightning78
Profile picture for user Lightning78
Posts
6314
Joined
12/12/2007
Location
Huntington Beach, CA US
Lightning78 1/2/2011 4:17pm
1/2/2011 4:17pm
The 99 yz400 I had was an amazing engine. A better lighter version of that would be cool
Flatliner
Profile picture for user Flatliner
Posts
2862
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
Flatliner 1/2/2011 5:25pm
1/2/2011 5:25pm
Lightning78 wrote:
The 99 yz400 I had was an amazing engine. A better lighter version of that would be cool
That's where it should have stopped. 400cc. A national championship was won with a 400cc engine. But the cc limit in both classes was set way too high. Double the displacement in the 125 class? Really? On a bike that revs higher, with more peak hp and more torque? The writing was on the wall.

Then we all bought them, in the big and small classes. Life was great. Time passes, and we realize, hey, these are pretty expensive to fix, and the 250's seem to eat valves. But oh boy are they fast! Then tracks shut down due to noise. ( Nobody better say it's not happening cause I've seen it happen with my own eyes).

Now all we do is debate this issue back and forth. Here are some truths that I know.

1) Four strokes are loud. Very loud.
2) Four strokes are fast.
3) If you really think the manufacturers had nothing to do with the displacement levels in pro racing your living under a rock.
4) Both two and four strokes break, but if each motor was to have a colossal failure, the four stroke would be more to repair ( much more if you cant do the work yourself, which the vast majority cant.)
5) KTM still cares about the two stroke, and continues to make it better. Yamaha is coming around. I expect the 125 to be a 144 off the showroom floor in the next few years.
6) The displacement level should have stopped at 400cc, and 200cc for the lites class.
7) The CRF 150 was a failure.
8) Two strokes on a pro racing level, are obsolete, I don't see one ever winning a race again.
9) Lets all get along, dirtbikes, two or four cycle are ok in my book. Though I'll never own another valve and cam machine out of preference.

End.
redalert144
Profile picture for user redalert144
Posts
1778
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Yuma, AZ US
Fantasy
3087th
redalert144 1/2/2011 6:39pm
1/2/2011 6:39pm
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one? I think it will be a smaller European company like TM, that steps up and starts the revolution
keeptwostrokesalive 1/2/2011 7:15pm
1/2/2011 7:15pm
redalert144 wrote:
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one...
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one? I think it will be a smaller European company like TM, that steps up and starts the revolution
I think if two strokes got direct injection then they definitely would be more competitive. But I dont think i would like a two stroke with direct injection. From what ive heard direct injection makes the power much smoother like a four stroke and i dont like four stroke power. I like two strokes cause when that power band hits your holding on for dear life. I dont want my two stroke to be boring like a four stroke. I say two strokes are perfect just the way they are.
BadExample 1/2/2011 7:25pm
1/2/2011 7:25pm
redalert144 wrote:
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one...
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one? I think it will be a smaller European company like TM, that steps up and starts the revolution
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
I think if two strokes got direct injection then they definitely would be more competitive. But I dont think i would like a two stroke with...
I think if two strokes got direct injection then they definitely would be more competitive. But I dont think i would like a two stroke with direct injection. From what ive heard direct injection makes the power much smoother like a four stroke and i dont like four stroke power. I like two strokes cause when that power band hits your holding on for dear life. I dont want my two stroke to be boring like a four stroke. I say two strokes are perfect just the way they are.
Disagree, the powerband remains the same. No mix, no blue smoke, more reliable, better gas consumption. The last generation of ski-doos hit really hard compare to the old carb units.. Same attitude, epa legal, lightweight and no mix involved for the lazy.

Pit Row

See All »
redalert144
Profile picture for user redalert144
Posts
1778
Joined
5/24/2009
Location
Yuma, AZ US
Fantasy
3087th
redalert144 1/2/2011 7:29pm
1/2/2011 7:29pm
redalert144 wrote:
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one...
Once direct fuel injection comes to mx/sx the tables will get turned back to the 2 stroke. The question is though, will the manufacturers build one? I think it will be a smaller European company like TM, that steps up and starts the revolution
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
I think if two strokes got direct injection then they definitely would be more competitive. But I dont think i would like a two stroke with...
I think if two strokes got direct injection then they definitely would be more competitive. But I dont think i would like a two stroke with direct injection. From what ive heard direct injection makes the power much smoother like a four stroke and i dont like four stroke power. I like two strokes cause when that power band hits your holding on for dear life. I dont want my two stroke to be boring like a four stroke. I say two strokes are perfect just the way they are.
From what I have read about DFI, is that you can make the powerband wherever you want, be it 4t style or 2t style
ratonmacias
Profile picture for user ratonmacias
Posts
1042
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Guadalajara MX
ratonmacias 1/2/2011 8:26pm
1/2/2011 8:26pm
newmann wrote:
The victory lies in the fact that there are shitloads of 4 stroke dust collectors in the dealerships. The 2 stroke fans are currently speaking with...
The victory lies in the fact that there are shitloads of 4 stroke dust collectors in the dealerships. The 2 stroke fans are currently speaking with their wallets. Too bad the mfgs. can't build and sell both and everyone would be happy......well that and a fair displacement rule in pro racing. Anyone who thinks the oem's couldn't produce both are just smoking crack. They don't seem to have any problem building thirty different 4 wheelers or eighty different cruisers.

It's one thing when a few message board wackos go off on something but there are 16,000 views on this thread started because DV , a proffessional racer turned team manager is bringing a 2 stroke to the gate. Jeremy McGrath commented on national television that the big heavy 450's don't like to stop or turn, that in itself should make the four stroke sheep take notice. Mitch Payton talking about how he can't do things in house anymore because he is so dependent on outside vendors to supply him with parts speaks volumes to all who are not blind.
MX7MX wrote:
and at the end of the day, its not going to make a DAMN bit of difference! Nothing is going to change, they keep trying this...
and at the end of the day, its not going to make a DAMN bit of difference! Nothing is going to change, they keep trying this same pipe dream, both indoors and out, year after year and NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING changes. Your little comment about vendors to supply parts, well that CREATED jobs, isnt that what this country needs?
and how do you know those jobs are created in the U.S. i remember he got his transmissions from xtrac an U.K. based company that also makes f1 trannys.
2T42
Profile picture for user 2T42
Posts
753
Joined
9/16/2009
Location
Zweitakt, IN US
2T42 1/2/2011 9:33pm
1/2/2011 9:33pm
Lightning78 wrote:
The 99 yz400 I had was an amazing engine. A better lighter version of that would be cool
Flatliner wrote:
That's where it should have stopped. 400cc. A national championship was won with a 400cc engine. But the cc limit in both classes was set way...
That's where it should have stopped. 400cc. A national championship was won with a 400cc engine. But the cc limit in both classes was set way too high. Double the displacement in the 125 class? Really? On a bike that revs higher, with more peak hp and more torque? The writing was on the wall.

Then we all bought them, in the big and small classes. Life was great. Time passes, and we realize, hey, these are pretty expensive to fix, and the 250's seem to eat valves. But oh boy are they fast! Then tracks shut down due to noise. ( Nobody better say it's not happening cause I've seen it happen with my own eyes).

Now all we do is debate this issue back and forth. Here are some truths that I know.

1) Four strokes are loud. Very loud.
2) Four strokes are fast.
3) If you really think the manufacturers had nothing to do with the displacement levels in pro racing your living under a rock.
4) Both two and four strokes break, but if each motor was to have a colossal failure, the four stroke would be more to repair ( much more if you cant do the work yourself, which the vast majority cant.)
5) KTM still cares about the two stroke, and continues to make it better. Yamaha is coming around. I expect the 125 to be a 144 off the showroom floor in the next few years.
6) The displacement level should have stopped at 400cc, and 200cc for the lites class.
7) The CRF 150 was a failure.
8) Two strokes on a pro racing level, are obsolete, I don't see one ever winning a race again.
9) Lets all get along, dirtbikes, two or four cycle are ok in my book. Though I'll never own another valve and cam machine out of preference.

End.
All good points and you forgot one major issue. WEIGHT

add 36 pounds. It may not seem like much to the golf playing suits in the marketing dept, but it is no secret that when you get stacked into the ground by a 450, you are going to the hospital and lucky to walk again when you leave. The permanent injury and death list is staggering. To put a kid with a bright future from an 85 onto what would have been considered during more sane times a full size and weight bike(250F) is criminal.

Go Cedric, DV and anyone else who supports what everyone knows is the right thing to do.
SwapperMX
Profile picture for user SwapperMX
Posts
2133
Joined
6/16/2010
Location
AU
SwapperMX 1/3/2011 2:30am
1/3/2011 2:30am
SwapperMX wrote:
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement...
Stop it. There is no conspiracy here. The rules are fair as they are, the two strokes are just not good enough to compete. Equal displacement would weigh too much in the two strokes favour, and the rules have to be "FAIR"
seth505 wrote:
HUH? Dude, the 2stroke motor is more simple, easy to work on, less money to spend on it if something goes wrong, and o ya....makes more...
HUH? Dude, the 2stroke motor is more simple, easy to work on, less money to spend on it if something goes wrong, and o ya....makes more power per cc than the 4stroke.

So how is it "not good enough"??
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
Guys im pretty sure swapper is being sarcastic.
Yep, I thought it was obvious. Sarcasm at its highest level. I am a massive two stroke fan, and this project is the greatest thing the moto industry has seen in years !!

Cant wait !!
scotttydog 1/3/2011 2:38am
1/3/2011 2:38am
Yes lets hope this is just the start of something big!
sometimes a step back can be a step forward lol


seth505
Profile picture for user seth505
Posts
9375
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
Fantasy
1271st
seth505 1/3/2011 6:55am
1/3/2011 6:55am
BadExample wrote:
Maiden, couple beers, and a two stroke.. sandals kick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx07lIgu3C8
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
How does that guy start a 500 with freaking sandals on. I have tried that with my kx250 and it hurt like a mother fricker.
haha I did that after washing my 250 last year and the kick starter tore through my sandal...I was like "AAAAAAAAAH, that was stupid"
dv12.com
Profile picture for user dv12.com
Posts
1485
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Murrieta, CA US
Fantasy
148th
dv12.com 1/3/2011 9:02am
1/3/2011 9:02am
keeptwostrokesalive wrote:
DV12, just wondering if you guys got the engine in the bike yet or not. Cant wait to see the bike finished.
We should have it tomorrow...
Hoodie
Profile picture for user Hoodie
Posts
224
Joined
4/24/2009
Location
ID US
Hoodie 1/3/2011 9:04am
1/3/2011 9:04am
DV you have one of the biggest threads on vital, congrats!

Post a reply to: Two-strokes back in 2011 US Supercross !