Twisted Development, $7000-dollar question, can you afford it??

haydos25
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12/3/2019 8:36pm
Chance1216 wrote:
7.5 hours or every three races on my CR. 50 hours on a Husky is impressive. I don't race. I'm comfortable swapping out a piston at...
7.5 hours or every three races on my CR. 50 hours on a Husky is impressive. I don't race. I'm comfortable swapping out a piston at 30 hours. The RMZ has 16 hrs. Its funny how asking a simple question regarding maintenance cost people start drawing lines. As I've mentioned, not racing I don't need the best bike or technology. I got what works for me.
Excellent point and i did the exact same thing.

Which is why i dont understand how changing the displacement rule at the pro level is supposed to make 2 stroke sales increase. Especially when the majority of bikes are never raced, let alone at the pro level.

Nobody is pushing $7000 bikes on anyone. If you want a more entry level price then go ahead and by the 10 year old $2000 YZ125 and have fun. If you want to spend $15000 then go buy the CRF Works Edition and have at it. It's not that hard.
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zehn
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12/3/2019 8:43pm
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
If someone is really throwing all that stuff out and replacing all of it at the same time, they're simply throwing money away
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xrmark
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12/3/2019 9:31pm
Chance1216 wrote:
I replace my CR 250 top end every thirty hours for piece of mind. $200. How much is your top end?
xrmark wrote:
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also...
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also don’t have to ride an out dated cr250. I love two strokes but I also have common sense.
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
bingo bud
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Mr. Afterbar
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12/4/2019 8:05am
zehn wrote:
Do people actually still believe that 4 strokes are more expensive to maintain? How many hours do you get out of a 2 stroke top end...
Do people actually still believe that 4 strokes are more expensive to maintain?

How many hours do you get out of a 2 stroke top end vs. a 4 stroke top end?
Chance1216 wrote:
I replace my CR 250 top end every thirty hours for piece of mind. $200. How much is your top end?
I do mine at 40-50 and they look like new. $200 for a 4 stroke piston and gaskets as well.

The Shop

Mr. Afterbar
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12/4/2019 8:11am
Chance1216 wrote:
I replace my CR 250 top end every thirty hours for piece of mind. $200. How much is your top end?
xrmark wrote:
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also...
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also don’t have to ride an out dated cr250. I love two strokes but I also have common sense.
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
All of which is completely unnecessary other than a piston kit and maybe the timing chain/valve seals for piece of mind. Valve trains in the newer 450s will last hundreds of hours if ridden properly. Think I have 70 hours on the 450 I’m about to sell and the valves haven’t moved at all.
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Chance1216
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12/4/2019 8:23am
zehn wrote:
Do people actually still believe that 4 strokes are more expensive to maintain? How many hours do you get out of a 2 stroke top end...
Do people actually still believe that 4 strokes are more expensive to maintain?

How many hours do you get out of a 2 stroke top end vs. a 4 stroke top end?
Chance1216 wrote:
I replace my CR 250 top end every thirty hours for piece of mind. $200. How much is your top end?
I do mine at 40-50 and they look like new. $200 for a 4 stroke piston and gaskets as well.
This is merely my own perspective. I'm not trying to turn this into a two vs four debate. The only issue I see is not everybody has the confidence or ability of doing a top end on a four stroke themselves. I get that parts can be had for a similar price. It seems the top end on a four stroke is more labor intensive. Many being intimidated to work on a four stroke, end up having a shop do the work.
Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 11:01am
haydos25 wrote:
Excellent point and i did the exact same thing. Which is why i dont understand how changing the displacement rule at the pro level is supposed...
Excellent point and i did the exact same thing.

Which is why i dont understand how changing the displacement rule at the pro level is supposed to make 2 stroke sales increase. Especially when the majority of bikes are never raced, let alone at the pro level.

Nobody is pushing $7000 bikes on anyone. If you want a more entry level price then go ahead and by the 10 year old $2000 YZ125 and have fun. If you want to spend $15000 then go buy the CRF Works Edition and have at it. It's not that hard.
Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all cranking out beautiful brand new 350cc two strokes to compete with 450's. And that RMZ450 that Suzuki can't give away...how's it gonna look next to a lighter, same price 350 two stroke that makes 5 more HP stock.

And this generation of kids who grew up riding thumpers are going to be just as curious about the new RM350 two stroke as we all were with the YZ400F. You'll see people want to buy them but it has to be pushed and promoted the same way the four strokes were.

And it'll be painful to hear the comment, "Well no duh the RM350 is faster and better than the RMZ450. First Suzuki stopped improving their tired 450 motor, second the RM350 is brand new and a more efficient motor."

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zehn
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12/4/2019 11:10am
“ Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all cranking out beautiful brand new 350cc two strokes to compete with 450's.”

No you would not. This is a fantasy
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kb228
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12/4/2019 11:26am
xrmark wrote:
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also...
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also don’t have to ride an out dated cr250. I love two strokes but I also have common sense.
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
All of which is completely unnecessary other than a piston kit and maybe the timing chain/valve seals for piece of mind. Valve trains in the newer...
All of which is completely unnecessary other than a piston kit and maybe the timing chain/valve seals for piece of mind. Valve trains in the newer 450s will last hundreds of hours if ridden properly. Think I have 70 hours on the 450 I’m about to sell and the valves haven’t moved at all.
Something that you guys arent taking into account is two stroke oil. Bottles and bottles of 2 stroke oil adds up. 927 is $12 a bottle.

Really if you can do a 2 stroke top end, you can do a 4 stroke top end. IMO it doesnt take any more or less skill to do it.

Yes when you need new valve seats its expensive. But you dont even do it that often. My kawis just got new heads and valves for the first time since 2009 when they came out. Big whoop.

Nobody is pushing brand new bikes on people. The notion you HAVE to buy a new bike is so dumb. You can buy used 4 stroke, fix it, rebuild the top end - whatever, and still come out ahead from buying new and youll still have a nice bike.

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Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 12:39pm
zehn wrote:
“ Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all...
“ Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all cranking out beautiful brand new 350cc two strokes to compete with 450's.”

No you would not. This is a fantasy
That was a response to the question, "i dont understand how changing the displacement rule at the pro level is supposed to make 2 stroke sales increase."

I don't expect a rule change or OEM's to care about 2 strokes any time soon, but it wasn't that long ago when it was a bigger fantasy to create a four stroke that was light enough and powerful enough to compete with the 2 strokes.
zehn
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12/4/2019 12:40pm
Gotcha
Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 12:51pm
kb228 wrote:
Something that you guys arent taking into account is two stroke oil. Bottles and bottles of 2 stroke oil adds up. 927 is $12 a bottle...
Something that you guys arent taking into account is two stroke oil. Bottles and bottles of 2 stroke oil adds up. 927 is $12 a bottle.

Really if you can do a 2 stroke top end, you can do a 4 stroke top end. IMO it doesnt take any more or less skill to do it.

Yes when you need new valve seats its expensive. But you dont even do it that often. My kawis just got new heads and valves for the first time since 2009 when they came out. Big whoop.

Nobody is pushing brand new bikes on people. The notion you HAVE to buy a new bike is so dumb. You can buy used 4 stroke, fix it, rebuild the top end - whatever, and still come out ahead from buying new and youll still have a nice bike.

"Really if you can do a 2 stroke top end, you can do a 4 stroke top end. IMO it doesnt take any more or less skill to do it."

Just compare the common mistakes between the two and you'll find threads that don't exist with 2 strokes
Wink

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walent215
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12/4/2019 12:52pm
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
All of which is completely unnecessary other than a piston kit and maybe the timing chain/valve seals for piece of mind. Valve trains in the newer...
All of which is completely unnecessary other than a piston kit and maybe the timing chain/valve seals for piece of mind. Valve trains in the newer 450s will last hundreds of hours if ridden properly. Think I have 70 hours on the 450 I’m about to sell and the valves haven’t moved at all.
kb228 wrote:
Something that you guys arent taking into account is two stroke oil. Bottles and bottles of 2 stroke oil adds up. 927 is $12 a bottle...
Something that you guys arent taking into account is two stroke oil. Bottles and bottles of 2 stroke oil adds up. 927 is $12 a bottle.

Really if you can do a 2 stroke top end, you can do a 4 stroke top end. IMO it doesnt take any more or less skill to do it.

Yes when you need new valve seats its expensive. But you dont even do it that often. My kawis just got new heads and valves for the first time since 2009 when they came out. Big whoop.

Nobody is pushing brand new bikes on people. The notion you HAVE to buy a new bike is so dumb. You can buy used 4 stroke, fix it, rebuild the top end - whatever, and still come out ahead from buying new and youll still have a nice bike.

This^^^^

I've rebuilt 2 4 strokes in the last couple months
07 CRF250X and an 09 yz450f
Both were blown up and they were fairly simple to rebuild. I bought them fairly cheap and get parts at cost so the investment was fairly low. Alot of labor but I enjoy doing it and it saves a ton of money. Someone with a little drive and a service manual, proper tools can save alot of coin!!
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Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 1:03pm
walent215 wrote:
This^^^^ I've rebuilt 2 4 strokes in the last couple months 07 CRF250X and an 09 yz450f Both were blown up and they were fairly simple...
This^^^^

I've rebuilt 2 4 strokes in the last couple months
07 CRF250X and an 09 yz450f
Both were blown up and they were fairly simple to rebuild. I bought them fairly cheap and get parts at cost so the investment was fairly low. Alot of labor but I enjoy doing it and it saves a ton of money. Someone with a little drive and a service manual, proper tools can save alot of coin!!
I had a good condition cylinder head for a yz250f with missing cam caps. That wasn't very fun trying to fit another set of cam caps in order to save a good cylinder head. I also don't enjoy the extra circuits on the FCR flatslide carbs that PWK 36's don't have or need. Just things that are diffferent - and happen to be more complicated with the thumper.

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haydos25
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12/4/2019 2:15pm
Micahdogg wrote:
Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all cranking...
Its like this, if the rule changes and if the OEM's cared, you would see new CR350's and RM350's and KX, YZ, KTM, etc.... all cranking out beautiful brand new 350cc two strokes to compete with 450's. And that RMZ450 that Suzuki can't give away...how's it gonna look next to a lighter, same price 350 two stroke that makes 5 more HP stock.

And this generation of kids who grew up riding thumpers are going to be just as curious about the new RM350 two stroke as we all were with the YZ400F. You'll see people want to buy them but it has to be pushed and promoted the same way the four strokes were.

And it'll be painful to hear the comment, "Well no duh the RM350 is faster and better than the RMZ450. First Suzuki stopped improving their tired 450 motor, second the RM350 is brand new and a more efficient motor."

Manufacturers are only going to produce new 350cc 2 strokes? Really? Thats the thing i doubt. You think they're going to spend millions of dollars in research dollars trying to improve a 2 stroke to catch up to the latest generation of 4 strokes out there right now in the hope that people will buy them? If they do that, do you think theyre going to be cheaper than a current bike?

I just don't see the bright side for the manufacturers to do it when the off road segment is really the only market that could potentially benefit from 2 stroke development at this stage.
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Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 2:39pm
No I don't think they will. But what I outlined is basically what already happened with the four stroke. The YZ400F was a fantasy that first needed a big rule advantage, then needed the OEM's to subscribe to (or vise versa). What ultimately happened is the four stroke had a huge advantage, especially in the 125 class, and that's when development stopped on the 125's.

If all of this were to occur again (which I don't really expect), only this time it would be the two stroke being promoted, it wouldn't take years to persuade people to switch bikes. I would fully expect for consumers to buy them too - even if they have no business owning one or no real need. Hell I had a friend who was perfectly happy with a 96 CR125 and got into a brand new 2007 YZ250F. He didn't like it as well, but this kinda thing happens all the time. I'm confident plenty more folks who like their 250F or 450F would do the same thing with a new two stroke. Especially if the four stroke offerings were getting the "bold new graphics" treatment for several years in a row, while the new bits end up on the two strokes.
haydos25
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12/4/2019 2:48pm
Micahdogg wrote:
No I don't think they will. But what I outlined is basically what already happened with the four stroke. The YZ400F was a fantasy that first...
No I don't think they will. But what I outlined is basically what already happened with the four stroke. The YZ400F was a fantasy that first needed a big rule advantage, then needed the OEM's to subscribe to (or vise versa). What ultimately happened is the four stroke had a huge advantage, especially in the 125 class, and that's when development stopped on the 125's.

If all of this were to occur again (which I don't really expect), only this time it would be the two stroke being promoted, it wouldn't take years to persuade people to switch bikes. I would fully expect for consumers to buy them too - even if they have no business owning one or no real need. Hell I had a friend who was perfectly happy with a 96 CR125 and got into a brand new 2007 YZ250F. He didn't like it as well, but this kinda thing happens all the time. I'm confident plenty more folks who like their 250F or 450F would do the same thing with a new two stroke. Especially if the four stroke offerings were getting the "bold new graphics" treatment for several years in a row, while the new bits end up on the two strokes.
But what incentive is there for the mfg's to do it though?

Are they going to sell more bikes? Is a more highly developed 2 stroke going to be cheaper? Is it even going to be a guaranteed better platform for winning races then the current bikes? None of those are guarantees in my mind. Yamaha was the only manufacturer originally who took advantage of a rule that was already in existence. Once the others saw it was a better bike thats when they jumped on.
Mr. Afterbar
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12/4/2019 2:49pm
Chance1216 wrote:
This is merely my own perspective. I'm not trying to turn this into a two vs four debate. The only issue I see is not everybody...
This is merely my own perspective. I'm not trying to turn this into a two vs four debate. The only issue I see is not everybody has the confidence or ability of doing a top end on a four stroke themselves. I get that parts can be had for a similar price. It seems the top end on a four stroke is more labor intensive. Many being intimidated to work on a four stroke, end up having a shop do the work.
I don’t disagree with you there. 4 strokes are bad for the sport because people are intimidated to work on them. Everything is more expensive these days and I personally don’t think the cost of ownership is higher with a 4s unless something catastrophic happens.
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SLOWTIME
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12/4/2019 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 12/4/2019 2:59pm
If I had the choice between spending money with twisted or Eddie sanders racing, I’d go twisted just because original poster is a clown.
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walent215
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12/4/2019 3:26pm
walent215 wrote:
This^^^^ I've rebuilt 2 4 strokes in the last couple months 07 CRF250X and an 09 yz450f Both were blown up and they were fairly simple...
This^^^^

I've rebuilt 2 4 strokes in the last couple months
07 CRF250X and an 09 yz450f
Both were blown up and they were fairly simple to rebuild. I bought them fairly cheap and get parts at cost so the investment was fairly low. Alot of labor but I enjoy doing it and it saves a ton of money. Someone with a little drive and a service manual, proper tools can save alot of coin!!
Micahdogg wrote:
I had a good condition cylinder head for a yz250f with missing cam caps. That wasn't very fun trying to fit another set of cam caps...
I had a good condition cylinder head for a yz250f with missing cam caps. That wasn't very fun trying to fit another set of cam caps in order to save a good cylinder head. I also don't enjoy the extra circuits on the FCR flatslide carbs that PWK 36's don't have or need. Just things that are diffferent - and happen to be more complicated with the thumper.

I hear ya on that! 4 stroke is definitely more involved that's for sure.
Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 4:04pm
haydos25 wrote:
But what incentive is there for the mfg's to do it though? Are they going to sell more bikes? Is a more highly developed 2 stroke...
But what incentive is there for the mfg's to do it though?

Are they going to sell more bikes? Is a more highly developed 2 stroke going to be cheaper? Is it even going to be a guaranteed better platform for winning races then the current bikes? None of those are guarantees in my mind. Yamaha was the only manufacturer originally who took advantage of a rule that was already in existence. Once the others saw it was a better bike thats when they jumped on.
The industry is different now. It's more about survival. If the environment were different though, I could see Yamaha doing it again for the same reasons. A reverse cylinder yz350 with a different frame, new bodywork, a pipe like nothing you have ever seen, crazy adjustable ignition and compression adjustable cylinder head that can the rider can tweak between 54-60HP. Ask $200 over msrp of the yz450f and then let the internet blow up over how the yz450f still makes 1HP more, but on so-and-so's dyno the smoker made 1HP more. If the rules allowed it, the market would follow and all I've been arguing is it wouldn't take 10 years for the class to look totally different.

Besides there were no guarantees when Yamaha did this 20 years ago. Had those engines not been as mechanically reliable as they were it could have ended up a total fiasco. As is a lot of racers lost due to inability to refire their bikes.
Zacka 161
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12/4/2019 4:22pm
Chance1216 wrote:
I replace my CR 250 top end every thirty hours for piece of mind. $200. How much is your top end?
xrmark wrote:
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also...
I did the top end on my 250f for piece of mind, cost 200 bucks. Ordering on Motosport through the right person does wonders. I also don’t have to ride an out dated cr250. I love two strokes but I also have common sense.
Curious what you consider top end. All valves, springs, seals for guides, piston, timing chain, gaskets, bumping the seats, rings and wrist pin?
At what hour is it reccomended to change all of that on a 450?

A top end on a 2 stroke is a piston and rings, pin and bearing at 30hrs.

On a 4 stroke at 6hrs you might add in a valve seat at 60hrs but you’ve probably saved that amount in the better fuel consumption and not having to buy a bottle of oil every 30 litres of fuel.
Zacka 161
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12/4/2019 4:38pm
Micahdogg wrote:
No I don't think they will. But what I outlined is basically what already happened with the four stroke. The YZ400F was a fantasy that first...
No I don't think they will. But what I outlined is basically what already happened with the four stroke. The YZ400F was a fantasy that first needed a big rule advantage, then needed the OEM's to subscribe to (or vise versa). What ultimately happened is the four stroke had a huge advantage, especially in the 125 class, and that's when development stopped on the 125's.

If all of this were to occur again (which I don't really expect), only this time it would be the two stroke being promoted, it wouldn't take years to persuade people to switch bikes. I would fully expect for consumers to buy them too - even if they have no business owning one or no real need. Hell I had a friend who was perfectly happy with a 96 CR125 and got into a brand new 2007 YZ250F. He didn't like it as well, but this kinda thing happens all the time. I'm confident plenty more folks who like their 250F or 450F would do the same thing with a new two stroke. Especially if the four stroke offerings were getting the "bold new graphics" treatment for several years in a row, while the new bits end up on the two strokes.
What as the big rule change?

Ktm raced a 550 or 570 fourstroke before the yzf400, so I guess the full change was to lower the capacity. Although I’m not sure about the 125 class?

What happened was Yamaha realised they could make a better mousetrap. They realised they could make more tractable power in a more rideable package that the inexperience consumer would enjoy riding more. Which I’m guessing is the case. And they sold in droves and the rest of the manufacturers followed suit and the sport thrived. Was this because of the energizing factor of a totally different machine? Or was the machine of RC and the antics of JS259 the catalyst for this explosion? Maybe it was all TP199 but who knows. But the explosion of the industry correlated to the introduction of the 4 stroke.

Then the FC happened. Motocross racing at the local level has never recovered. But I would think that the best judge of whether it has anything to do with four strokes is in the junior classes. Are 50,65 and 85 classes booming and then a massive drop off to 250f? Or are the smaller 2 stroke juniors struggling for numbers as well?

Why is off road booming? My guess is the older demographic - the boomers of you will. This correlates to two stroke love especially when they are mostly buying Ktm exc two strokes which cost as much as four strokes so it’s not the price....

It’s just slightly more complicated than ‘4 stroke bad’. But if the data does bore it out then I am happy to agree with you but you definitely don’t seem to be considering all the options.

BMX was also booming in the 90s and isn’t nearly as big anymore. Skateboarding was also a cultural phenomenon then and it’s practically dead with the youth... roller blading? None of these died because of cost, maybe they died because they didn’t evolve. To me downhill mtb racing seems to scratch a similar itch to BMX and the bikes are more expensive than dirt bikes and that sport booooominggg. So maybe evolution and technological advancement is important to growing the sport?
Micahdogg
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12/4/2019 5:33pm
I think my argument is pretty clear and it's not that thumpers are bad. I also think you are being too generous to Yamaha in predicting the future of the sport.

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