Top 250 and 450 Pro's have Equal Talent-Change My Mind

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10/26/2019 6:48 AM

Rider's move from 250's and become instant winners regularly, AC9 is just the latest.
Think of all the good racing being missed, and rider's best year's being wasted in the Everybody Gets a Trophy Class. The 250 concept as a Feeder Class is a Fail. Matching Lap Times are Common. Costs are HIGHER.

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250 Pro Class Structures

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/26/2019 7:07 AM

I'm not sure, but that sand bag filler thingy is pure genius!

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10/26/2019 7:13 AM

Once the manufacturers see no value in funding a 250 team your prayers will be answered. Until then... enjoy the racing as sometimes it is better than the 450 class.

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10/26/2019 7:20 AM

Yes, they just have far less experience.

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10/26/2019 7:30 AM

How many year in and year out become “instant” winners?Sure a few come in and win right away. But the vast majority do not. Winning a mud race or an exhibition race is one thing. I will agree they can be top 5 or podium threats. But instant winners the vast majority are not.

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10/26/2019 7:42 AM

Bring back a true feeder 125 class like EMX125 over seas. 125s are fantastic entertainment to watch, both indoors and outdoors.

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10/26/2019 7:57 AM

I agree with you. The sport (Or rather the sponsorship dollars) isn't big enough at the moment to have more than one Pro-Class.

One event. 120 riders. One championship race. One non-qualifiers race. The rest go home.
All the big-dogs end up racing together. Doesn't matter which bike you choose.

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The above may be fact or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting. I am not sure, you have no chance.

10/26/2019 10:43 AM

One thing I've always noticed, when a rider moves from a 250 to 450, they're usually instant holeshot
masters, until they get used to the bike and they somehow lose the edge.

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10/26/2019 11:07 AM

I've been saying this since the 125/250 days:

125/lites/250F riders are masters at squeezing all the power out of their bikes. They are exceptionally talented at maximizing all the available HP at any moment, and this makes them faster.
250/MX class/450F riders are masters at minimizing mistakes and not over-riding the bike. They are exceptionally talented at maximizing efficiency and their line choices make them faster.
Let's put them all on 350s and see who is really the fastest. I think the top 10 250F guys would do really well against the top 10 450F guys. Further back in the pack, the 450 guys with more experience would probably win out.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

10/26/2019 11:18 AM

The 250 class has definitely hurt the big boy class in GNCC. Big boy is thin these days.

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10/26/2019 11:18 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/26/2019 11:22 AM

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

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10/26/2019 11:19 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/26/2019 12:09 PM

nealb129 wrote:

How many year in and year out become “instant” winners?Sure a few come in and win right away. But the vast majority do not. Winning a mud race or an exhibition race is one thing. I will agree they can be top 5 or podium threats. But instant winners the vast majority are not.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/4-greatest-450-debuts Reed, Grant, Roczen and Dungey who won the indoor and outdoor as a Rookie.

This article is from 2014, and Rookie race winners goes all the way back in the history of our sport. Ever hear of Marty Tripes?
In the GP's same story, Cairoli, Gajser, Herlings and now Prado. The list of Rookie Championship holders in the big bike class is long, as is the list of race winners , the podium finishers goes on and on.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/26/2019 11:30 AM

Martin davalos started racing that class in 2006?...so that would be like 14 yrs in the same class?

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scte3.0 pro-line trinity tekin

10/26/2019 12:58 PM

nealb129 wrote:

How many year in and year out become “instant” winners?Sure a few come in and win right away. But the vast majority do not. Winning a mud race or an exhibition race is one thing. I will agree they can be top 5 or podium threats. But instant winners the vast majority are not.

Johnny Depp wrote:

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/4-greatest-450-debuts Reed, Grant, Roczen and Dungey who won the indoor and outdoor as a Rookie.

This article is from 2014, and Rookie race winners goes all the way back in the history of our sport. Ever hear of Marty Tripes?
In the GP's same story, Cairoli, Gajser, Herlings and now Prado. The list of Rookie Championship holders in the big bike class is long, as is the list of race winners , the podium finishers goes on and on.

Febvre, Albertyn, Tortelli, Bayle.

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The above may be fact or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting. I am not sure, you have no chance.

10/26/2019 1:06 PM

nealb129 wrote:

How many year in and year out become “instant” winners?Sure a few come in and win right away. But the vast majority do not. Winning a mud race or an exhibition race is one thing. I will agree they can be top 5 or podium threats. But instant winners the vast majority are not.

Johnny Depp wrote:

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/4-greatest-450-debuts Reed, Grant, Roczen and Dungey who won the indoor and outdoor as a Rookie.

This article is from 2014, and Rookie race winners goes all the way back in the history of our sport. Ever hear of Marty Tripes?
In the GP's same story, Cairoli, Gajser, Herlings and now Prado. The list of Rookie Championship holders in the big bike class is long, as is the list of race winners , the podium finishers goes on and on.

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Febvre, Albertyn, Tortelli, Bayle.

McGrath..

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/26/2019 1:43 PM

Well every premier class rider in the 450 class came through the 250 class, sooo...

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10/26/2019 2:23 PM

Support 125cc class, mild upgrades.
Support open class, mid upgrades.
Premier open class, Max upgrades.
The 2 open classes you can use any size, motor, gas, electric, whatever.
Premier gets most tv time, and the 'big bucks'.

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10/26/2019 6:52 PM

It would be a very short program if it was just the 450s

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10/27/2019 7:18 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/27/2019 7:27 AM

that sand bag filler thingy - A pack of professional sandbagsw00t

Once the manufacturers see no value in funding a 250 team - Letting manufacturer's make the rules hasn't worked

Bring back a true feeder 125 class - Yes, and don't worry about who makes them, 17 year max age (pre-pro)

“instant” winners? -It is not an anomoly, it is the norm. This indicates talent being held back too long.

The sport (Or rather the sponsorship dollars) isn't big enough at the moment to have more -Time for Change

Let's put them all on 350s -I prefer an Open Class

The 250 class has definitely hurt the big boy class in GNCC -Yet they all run together for the Overall

14 yrs in the same class - One of the most egregious examples of the farce of the current rules

[i]Support 125cc class, mild upgrades.Support open class, mid upgrades.Premier open class, Max upgrades.
- Outstanding proposal. I would add 17 yrs. for 125's, and 21 for Support Open and all classes count for the Overall.

It would be a very short program if it was just the 450s - See above, 2 support and 1 Premier.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/27/2019 7:38 AM
Edited Date/Time: 10/27/2019 7:40 AM

150cc's and 250cc's for the racing classifications. The 350 is the perfect vet/hobby machine. F the 450.

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10/27/2019 7:43 AM

smashingpumpkins167 wrote:

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

Adam? Ac9 Adam? What? He just won an exhibition race with 1/4 of the field there. Did I miss where he won a 450sx or Outdoor race somewhere?

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10/27/2019 8:15 AM

smashingpumpkins167 wrote:

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

Huckster wrote:

Adam? Ac9 Adam? What? He just won an exhibition race with 1/4 of the field there. Did I miss where he won a 450sx or Outdoor race somewhere?

The biggest purse of the year, Beats the FMOTP indoors straight up. 1st race out of the 250 class, That's not equal talent?

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/27/2019 8:20 AM

smashingpumpkins167 wrote:

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

Huckster wrote:

Adam? Ac9 Adam? What? He just won an exhibition race with 1/4 of the field there. Did I miss where he won a 450sx or Outdoor race somewhere?

Johnny Depp wrote:

The biggest purse of the year, Beats the FMOTP indoors straight up. 1st race out of the 250 class, That's not equal talent?

Equal talent? Guess that remains to be seen. When AC9 wins a 450 sx or outdoor we can revisit this

FYI, FMOTP is The Hoff 2 yrs running. Get it right....

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10/27/2019 8:56 AM

I really think there needs to be a better system for people pointing out of the class though, some people are there waaaaay too long, how long has Jmart been there?

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10/27/2019 9:02 AM

smashingpumpkins167 wrote:

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

Huckster wrote:

Adam? Ac9 Adam? What? He just won an exhibition race with 1/4 of the field there. Did I miss where he won a 450sx or Outdoor race somewhere?

Johnny Depp wrote:

The biggest purse of the year, Beats the FMOTP indoors straight up. 1st race out of the 250 class, That's not equal talent?

No whoops you goof

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10/27/2019 9:14 AM

OP you’re a broken record about the 250 class

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10/27/2019 10:10 AM

zehn wrote:

OP you’re a broken record about the 250 class

If some common sense changes aren't made to this sport soon, there won't be any sport left.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

10/27/2019 10:12 AM

smashingpumpkins167 wrote:

I could dig through the vault and show you a long list of people who weren't instant winners, but just off the top of my head I'll go with....uh....pretty much everybody besides Adam, and Dungey. Seriously, Malcolm hasn't won yet, Weimer never won, Tomac and Webb took a few years, etc.

Huckster wrote:

Adam? Ac9 Adam? What? He just won an exhibition race with 1/4 of the field there. Did I miss where he won a 450sx or Outdoor race somewhere?

Johnny Depp wrote:

The biggest purse of the year, Beats the FMOTP indoors straight up. 1st race out of the 250 class, That's not equal talent?

Puff , Puff, PASS! Bogart.

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10/27/2019 10:38 AM

devindavisphoto wrote:

Well every premier class rider in the 450 class came through the 250 class, sooo...

I agree. The guys that have came right into the big boy class and started winning regularly are the all time greats, they are the exception not the rule. There are way too many guys who have won small bike titles and gone on to the big boy class to be middle of the pack riders. Since 2000 every 450 championship has been won by only 8 guys, Carmichael, Langston, Stewart, Reed, Dungey, Villopoto, Roczen and Tomac (and realistically Langston got in there only because of Stewart tearing up his knee so that 8 should be a 7). In the same time period there have been 16 different 250 champions. I guess it depends on what you mean by "talent" ... Like as in the 'talent" to put in a good moto, then maybe.. but if you mean "talent" to go on and win a top level championship against the best competition, then I say no they do not have equal talent.

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10/27/2019 3:11 PM

devindavisphoto wrote:

Well every premier class rider in the 450 class came through the 250 class, sooo...

PTECH wrote:

I agree. The guys that have came right into the big boy class and started winning regularly are the all time greats, they are the exception not the rule. There are way too many guys who have won small bike titles and gone on to the big boy class to be middle of the pack riders. Since 2000 every 450 championship has been won by only 8 guys, Carmichael, Langston, Stewart, Reed, Dungey, Villopoto, Roczen and Tomac (and realistically Langston got in there only because of Stewart tearing up his knee so that 8 should be a 7). In the same time period there have been 16 different 250 champions. I guess it depends on what you mean by "talent" ... Like as in the 'talent" to put in a good moto, then maybe.. but if you mean "talent" to go on and win a top level championship against the best competition, then I say no they do not have equal talent.

What I mean is the top 250 riders are interchangeable in talent with the top 450 riders. You can compare lap times, you can look at West SX riders that hop on a 450 and aren't outclassed. You can see how many rookie champions there have been. What I'm getting at is the question of WHEN they are moved up, the system isn't designed to find the best rider's and group them together, the same thing that happens locally, no one moves up. Most of the names you listed destroyed the competition on the smaller bikes for years, and most likely would have done the same in the bigger bike class had they been forced up sooner.

Something more like stick and ball sports would make more sense, a class for High school ages, a class for college ages and then the Pro's. If you're good enough you can go pro out of High school, and should. In other sports, you don't show up at the Premier and win right away, it takes time. A rookie quarterback has never won the Super Bowl.
Last night José Urquidy was just the fourth rookie in the last 30 years to throw a scoreless start in the World Series.
2 rookies have gone from an NCAA Championship to an NBA title, Majic Johnson being the last. In these sports the contestant wants to move up to get PAID. The problem, as evidenced by the poll, is that MX/SX pays them to not move up.

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2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart