Tomac’s and others shredded Tires

Tracktor
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Tracktor 1/18/2019 10:13am
1/18/2019 10:13am
I am running into this with my older boy. He is just a local fast B rider. He can destroy a rear tire in a couple of rides. Fronts take just a few longer. I have tried multiple brands and compounds. Changed air pressure. Doesn't matter if hardpack or sand. I had a couple months on a set on my 250f and they were wearing well. One practice day of him riding it on a pure sand track and knobs coming off. Dunlops have been worst so far he has stripped the majority of knobs off of a couple of those within a few rides. Getting kind of expensive.........
langhammx
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langhammx 1/18/2019 10:53am
1/18/2019 10:53am
ML512 wrote:
Just some info I pulled up on the first two races. Around 95% of racers for Dunlop are on the MX33 rear tread pattern. Over half...
Just some info I pulled up on the first two races.

Around 95% of racers for Dunlop are on the MX33 rear tread pattern. Over half of the 250 class at both races were on the MX33 production tire, no compound change from consumer tire.

Both 450 class winners and the Phoenix 250 class winner have been on MX33 tread patterned front tires.

At Phoenix, 1 Pirelli rider made the 250 main, rest were with Dunlops. (Maybe one Hoosier, trying to confirm)

At A1, 2 Pirelli and 1 Hoosier rider made the main for 250s.

A good chunk of the 450 class is now running the 120/90-19 rear tire.

As it’s been brought up multiple times, the majority of spec tires might have softer rubber compounds but also have stiffer sidewalls due to the load placed on the tire in Supercross, especially up front.
langhammx wrote:
That can’t be... I read that the MX33 tires had no grip and weren’t as good as the Mx3S that they replaced ! Why would these...
That can’t be... I read that the MX33 tires had no grip and weren’t as good as the Mx3S that they replaced ! Why would these pro racers pick such a terrible tire ??

Jrewing wrote:
Surely you’re not that ignorant to tyre construction
It was a joke !
Not too ignorant.... Wink
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langhammx
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langhammx 1/18/2019 10:59am
1/18/2019 10:59am
UpTiTe wrote:
YOU REALLY cant run off the rack tires in sx because of the side wall load
BroFoSho wrote:
Then what do the 60+ privateers have on their bike every weekend or on practice days???
^^ THIS^^

This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed in. You’d think they would have the tires sorted out after they rode press day ??
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Mm471
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Mm471 1/18/2019 11:30am
1/18/2019 11:30am
UpTiTe wrote:
YOU REALLY cant run off the rack tires in sx because of the side wall load
BroFoSho wrote:
Then what do the 60+ privateers have on their bike every weekend or on practice days???
Doesn’t Dunlop supply privateers with tires who made the main the previous weekend? It’s most likely another disadvantage for them otherwise. But like most setups in sx the production parts aren’t the best for the pros and the pro parts are best for the casual

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nrosso391
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nrosso391 1/18/2019 12:11pm
1/18/2019 12:11pm
Tracktor wrote:
I am running into this with my older boy. He is just a local fast B rider. He can destroy a rear tire in a couple...
I am running into this with my older boy. He is just a local fast B rider. He can destroy a rear tire in a couple of rides. Fronts take just a few longer. I have tried multiple brands and compounds. Changed air pressure. Doesn't matter if hardpack or sand. I had a couple months on a set on my 250f and they were wearing well. One practice day of him riding it on a pure sand track and knobs coming off. Dunlops have been worst so far he has stripped the majority of knobs off of a couple of those within a few rides. Getting kind of expensive.........
I'm a good sand rider that raced 250A and 450A. I strictly ran a Pirelli Scorpion on my 250F and 450 on a "REAL" sand track with a very soft and deep base to the sand. I bought 1 for each bike and ran them both for 3 years each. Only raced that track 2-3 times a year, but still practiced sand a lot with those tires. They never wore out or tore off knobs and even ran them on cement starts at other events which it worked great for cement starts. But there's no way you should be tearing off knobs on a sand track no matter what tire manufacturer you have. Unless you aren't running a legit sand track. Southwick isn't totally a legit sand track if you look at the base. It has a very hard base on more than 80% of that track with sharp edges at times, so only the top few inches are sand. A legit sand track is deep sand for more than 2-3 ft deep as it keeps getting tore up. Sounds like a tire defect or you're lying about the legitimacy of the sand track you are riding.
nrosso391
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nrosso391 1/18/2019 12:19pm
1/18/2019 12:19pm
UpTiTe wrote:
YOU REALLY cant run off the rack tires in sx because of the side wall load
BroFoSho wrote:
Then what do the 60+ privateers have on their bike every weekend or on practice days???
langhammx wrote:
^^ THIS^^ This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed...
^^ THIS^^

This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed in. You’d think they would have the tires sorted out after they rode press day ??
You know any Pro can ride Press Day right? They just have to pay another fee to ride. Privateers probably aren't going to fork over more money for a short 20-30 min practice session for only half of the track they allow you to ride.
aees
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aees 1/18/2019 12:26pm
1/18/2019 12:26pm
UpTiTe wrote:
YOU REALLY cant run off the rack tires in sx because of the side wall load
BroFoSho wrote:
Then what do the 60+ privateers have on their bike every weekend or on practice days???
langhammx wrote:
^^ THIS^^ This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed...
^^ THIS^^

This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed in. You’d think they would have the tires sorted out after they rode press day ??
Press day and dirt is soft since limited packing by machines and bikes and also lot of water has been put down. But for main event, they should have switched.
Cole_Ughetti 1/18/2019 2:15pm
1/18/2019 2:15pm
maybe a dunlop guy sent him on his way from the podium so nobody could snap a pic of said tire. pure speculation
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drt410
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drt410 1/18/2019 2:20pm
1/18/2019 2:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2019 2:22pm
Motodave15 wrote:
I'd like to see pictures as well.. on a unrelated note, i wish their were more tyre manufacturers in this industry... On a double side note...
I'd like to see pictures as well.. on a unrelated note, i wish their were more tyre manufacturers in this industry... On a double side note, are pirelli not that viable of a choice anymore??
Ridelow wrote:
I think it comes more down to support and where the different tire manufacturers wants to market their product.. Look at MXGP and Pirelli won 53...
I think it comes more down to support and where the different tire manufacturers wants to market their product..

Look at MXGP and Pirelli won 53 out of 54 races (26 out of 27 in MXGP and all in MX2) in 2018.

Nothing wrong with Pirelli tires, and especially not the calendar... Wink
Yea plus the Euros Herlings, Cairolli, Prado are all on Pirellis and winning plenty. Its a support thing. No issue with Pirellis whatsoever.
zehn
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zehn 1/18/2019 2:36pm
1/18/2019 2:36pm
Motodave15 wrote:
I'd like to see pictures as well.. on a unrelated note, i wish their were more tyre manufacturers in this industry... On a double side note...
I'd like to see pictures as well.. on a unrelated note, i wish their were more tyre manufacturers in this industry... On a double side note, are pirelli not that viable of a choice anymore??
Ridelow wrote:
I think it comes more down to support and where the different tire manufacturers wants to market their product.. Look at MXGP and Pirelli won 53...
I think it comes more down to support and where the different tire manufacturers wants to market their product..

Look at MXGP and Pirelli won 53 out of 54 races (26 out of 27 in MXGP and all in MX2) in 2018.

Nothing wrong with Pirelli tires, and especially not the calendar... Wink
drt410 wrote:
Yea plus the Euros Herlings, Cairolli, Prado are all on Pirellis and winning plenty. Its a support thing. No issue with Pirellis whatsoever.
They also don’t race SX which requires different construction than MX tires.
milliebays
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milliebays 1/18/2019 2:43pm
1/18/2019 2:43pm
this industry is so weird. i sorta feel like ppl use dunflop b/c they've always used dunflops.

in car racing, michelin is the top dog and dunflop is nowhere.

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drt410
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drt410 1/18/2019 2:44pm
1/18/2019 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2019 2:49pm
Pirelli is perfectly capable of making a good sx tire. Its support.
zehn
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zehn 1/18/2019 2:59pm
1/18/2019 2:59pm
drt410 wrote:
Pirelli is perfectly capable of making a good sx tire. Its support.
I mean, the burden sits on one party and it isn’t the top factory guys.
nascarnate326 1/18/2019 3:07pm
1/18/2019 3:07pm
I have a mx33 on the front of my bike and I hate it. 3S was much better. I’m going to try something else this year.
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Sierra Ranger
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Sierra Ranger 1/18/2019 3:14pm
1/18/2019 3:14pm
dirtwalker wrote:
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this) Or does anyone know...
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)

Or does anyone know of rider this has happened to in the past - rear tire falling apart during a single supercross race on the big stage?
barnett468 wrote:
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)" A tire manufacturer who's...
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)"

A tire manufacturer who's name I am apparently not supposed to mention, also doesn't like people seeing them test and then seeing a post on this site about them being seen testing even though they go to tracks that are open to the public that have a lot of riders at them. Guess we are all supposed to pretend we didn't see their big black and yellow van parked right next to one of the busiest tracks at the facility they were recently seen at, lol.

There is no legal expectation of privacy in public. That's how a newspaper photographer can take your pic on a public street and run it.
zehn
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zehn 1/18/2019 3:15pm
1/18/2019 3:15pm
dirtwalker wrote:
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this) Or does anyone know...
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)

Or does anyone know of rider this has happened to in the past - rear tire falling apart during a single supercross race on the big stage?
barnett468 wrote:
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)" A tire manufacturer who's...
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)"

A tire manufacturer who's name I am apparently not supposed to mention, also doesn't like people seeing them test and then seeing a post on this site about them being seen testing even though they go to tracks that are open to the public that have a lot of riders at them. Guess we are all supposed to pretend we didn't see their big black and yellow van parked right next to one of the busiest tracks at the facility they were recently seen at, lol.

Sierra Ranger wrote:
There is no legal expectation of privacy in public. That's how a newspaper photographer can take your pic on a public street and run it.
It’s not quite that simple but I won’t let the facts get in the way of a good story Wink
alien
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alien 1/18/2019 3:21pm
1/18/2019 3:21pm
James Stewart won a lot of races on Pirelli tires when he was at JGR.
Tracktor
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Tracktor 1/18/2019 3:29pm
1/18/2019 3:29pm
Tracktor wrote:
I am running into this with my older boy. He is just a local fast B rider. He can destroy a rear tire in a couple...
I am running into this with my older boy. He is just a local fast B rider. He can destroy a rear tire in a couple of rides. Fronts take just a few longer. I have tried multiple brands and compounds. Changed air pressure. Doesn't matter if hardpack or sand. I had a couple months on a set on my 250f and they were wearing well. One practice day of him riding it on a pure sand track and knobs coming off. Dunlops have been worst so far he has stripped the majority of knobs off of a couple of those within a few rides. Getting kind of expensive.........
nrosso391 wrote:
I'm a good sand rider that raced 250A and 450A. I strictly ran a Pirelli Scorpion on my 250F and 450 on a "REAL" sand track...
I'm a good sand rider that raced 250A and 450A. I strictly ran a Pirelli Scorpion on my 250F and 450 on a "REAL" sand track with a very soft and deep base to the sand. I bought 1 for each bike and ran them both for 3 years each. Only raced that track 2-3 times a year, but still practiced sand a lot with those tires. They never wore out or tore off knobs and even ran them on cement starts at other events which it worked great for cement starts. But there's no way you should be tearing off knobs on a sand track no matter what tire manufacturer you have. Unless you aren't running a legit sand track. Southwick isn't totally a legit sand track if you look at the base. It has a very hard base on more than 80% of that track with sharp edges at times, so only the top few inches are sand. A legit sand track is deep sand for more than 2-3 ft deep as it keeps getting tore up. Sounds like a tire defect or you're lying about the legitimacy of the sand track you are riding.
Woodland MX is technically volcanic ash so actually lighter than sand. It can get a few hard spots dependiong on moisture but no rock whatsoever and certainly nothing that should shred tires to any extent. The day I am referring to was deep soft conditions. Thing is, it doesn't matter what track conditions are like the kid shreds tires. It's become a bit of a running joke. If it's a tire defect there have been about 15 defective tires over the last couple of years, lol. Same bike with me on it they last the usual amount of time. We have two almost identical bikes and switch back & forth. I am pretty meticulous about settings so pressure etc is set and adjusted regularly..........

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barnett468
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barnett468 1/18/2019 3:39pm
1/18/2019 3:39pm
dirtwalker wrote:
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this) Or does anyone know...
Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)

Or does anyone know of rider this has happened to in the past - rear tire falling apart during a single supercross race on the big stage?
barnett468 wrote:
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)" A tire manufacturer who's...
"Apparently Tomac’s rear tire fell apart at Glendale. Anyone got photos? (Not that the team or Dunlop want us to see this)"

A tire manufacturer who's name I am apparently not supposed to mention, also doesn't like people seeing them test and then seeing a post on this site about them being seen testing even though they go to tracks that are open to the public that have a lot of riders at them. Guess we are all supposed to pretend we didn't see their big black and yellow van parked right next to one of the busiest tracks at the facility they were recently seen at, lol.

Sierra Ranger wrote:
There is no legal expectation of privacy in public. That's how a newspaper photographer can take your pic on a public street and run it.
Thanks but I know that.
WheelieNelson 1/18/2019 3:47pm
1/18/2019 3:47pm
They should do away with the factory spec tire. All these teams have all this technology and advantages, it reminds me of works bikes back in the day. Obviously teams have money and resources but I don't believe they should get special tires that the average privateer can't get ahold of it's not right.
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drt410
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drt410 1/18/2019 4:08pm
1/18/2019 4:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2019 4:15pm
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first out of corners, but he has to lug second because he said theres an 80% chance hell hit neutral. Thats kinda bs.

What exactly are the rules anyways, no changed frame geometry and oem cc’s? I thought cases had to be oem too but that was proven wrong by Ping showing Tomacs magnesium cases. Wtf makes them “non works” these days if you have magnesium cases and magical transmissions with dlc coatings, special neutral prevention pieces, ktm 5 axis cnc machines that can mill works cams that nobody else can, secondary injectors...etc.

That being said though these days if you have enough money you can get damn close to factory performance esp on a 450. Even more so with a KTM/Husky by not having to drop all that weight.
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slipdog
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slipdog 1/18/2019 4:18pm
1/18/2019 4:18pm
drt410 wrote:
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first...
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first out of corners, but he has to lug second because he said theres an 80% chance hell hit neutral. Thats kinda bs.

What exactly are the rules anyways, no changed frame geometry and oem cc’s? I thought cases had to be oem too but that was proven wrong by Ping showing Tomacs magnesium cases. Wtf makes them “non works” these days if you have magnesium cases and magical transmissions with dlc coatings, special neutral prevention pieces, ktm 5 axis cnc machines that can mill works cams that nobody else can, secondary injectors...etc.

That being said though these days if you have enough money you can get damn close to factory performance esp on a 450. Even more so with a KTM/Husky by not having to drop all that weight.
Triples in 1st gear on a 450 you say?
langhammx
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langhammx 1/18/2019 5:02pm
1/18/2019 5:02pm
drt410 wrote:
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first...
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first out of corners, but he has to lug second because he said theres an 80% chance hell hit neutral. Thats kinda bs.

What exactly are the rules anyways, no changed frame geometry and oem cc’s? I thought cases had to be oem too but that was proven wrong by Ping showing Tomacs magnesium cases. Wtf makes them “non works” these days if you have magnesium cases and magical transmissions with dlc coatings, special neutral prevention pieces, ktm 5 axis cnc machines that can mill works cams that nobody else can, secondary injectors...etc.

That being said though these days if you have enough money you can get damn close to factory performance esp on a 450. Even more so with a KTM/Husky by not having to drop all that weight.
slipdog wrote:
Triples in 1st gear on a 450 you say?
Shocked
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Excaliburbmx 1/18/2019 5:27pm
1/18/2019 5:27pm
UpTiTe wrote:
YOU REALLY cant run off the rack tires in sx because of the side wall load
BroFoSho wrote:
Then what do the 60+ privateers have on their bike every weekend or on practice days???
langhammx wrote:
^^ THIS^^ This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed...
^^ THIS^^

This is one of the major advantages that Factory riders have, along with being able to ride press day and get the track dialed in. You’d think they would have the tires sorted out after they rode press day ??
The track changes constantly. Press day to the main the track will be totally different.
ML512
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ML512 1/18/2019 5:35pm
1/18/2019 5:35pm
drt410 wrote:
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first...
I heard Aj Catanzaro explain that factory transmissions have a special part that makes them never go into neutral so they can hit triples in first out of corners, but he has to lug second because he said theres an 80% chance hell hit neutral. Thats kinda bs.

What exactly are the rules anyways, no changed frame geometry and oem cc’s? I thought cases had to be oem too but that was proven wrong by Ping showing Tomacs magnesium cases. Wtf makes them “non works” these days if you have magnesium cases and magical transmissions with dlc coatings, special neutral prevention pieces, ktm 5 axis cnc machines that can mill works cams that nobody else can, secondary injectors...etc.

That being said though these days if you have enough money you can get damn close to factory performance esp on a 450. Even more so with a KTM/Husky by not having to drop all that weight.
slipdog wrote:
Triples in 1st gear on a 450 you say?
Kawi guys do it sometimes, but the ratios are quite a bit different. To the drt410, most factory 450 transmissions are different ratios and first is wider for more usability. A stock transmission would not produce the same effect per se. By example, one of the few HRC parts last year on Brayton’s bike was the taller ratio first gear so he could triple into rhythms in first gear when he wanted to, then shift to second in mid air. Hitting main triples in first is a bit uncommon but riders have mentioned doing it, it seems more common for tripling into rhythm lanes in tricky conditions or from a tighter line with less run-in.
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dirtwalker 1/19/2019 3:08am
1/19/2019 3:08am
jeffro503 wrote:
Those factory tires aren't made to hold up. They are made to do a 20 lap main , then tossed in the garbage. That track was...
Those factory tires aren't made to hold up. They are made to do a 20 lap main , then tossed in the garbage. That track was blue grooved and sketchy as hell.....so yeah , I could see why they got destroyed.
PRM31 wrote:
It should still be working well at the end of the main though.
Yep. Easy to get carried away thinking a factory tire can be dead after 20min. Some loss of condition is ok. But a rider still wants full performance on the last lap.
CDswinehart
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CDswinehart 1/19/2019 7:33am
1/19/2019 7:33am
Mr. Slipdog, how are you sir? Didn't you have opportunity to ride with some prototype, pre-production and "differently constructed" tires for a while? As I recall, you were also quite valuable in the brake pad material tests of the time and an early adopter of the gripper seat cover.
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slipdog
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slipdog 1/19/2019 1:11pm
1/19/2019 1:11pm
CDswinehart wrote:
Mr. Slipdog, how are you sir? Didn't you have opportunity to ride with some prototype, pre-production and "differently constructed" tires for a while? As I recall...
Mr. Slipdog, how are you sir? Didn't you have opportunity to ride with some prototype, pre-production and "differently constructed" tires for a while? As I recall, you were also quite valuable in the brake pad material tests of the time and an early adopter of the gripper seat cover.
I'm doing well, thanks for asking!

I was never on an official tire program but at times I had the luxury to be involved with the Scott Swinehart tire program where you pulled aside the still good "special" tires after practice from a factory bike and gave them to me to use for the motos.

If I didn't say it at the time, because I was young and dumb after all, I want to you to know how much I appreciate the way you treated me and helped me out even though I wasn't on a factory team. I don't think the average person could know or understand how instrumental you, Doug and the rest of the Competition Direct crew were at helping to keep the privateers going in the '90's when if you weren't a consistent top 10 rider you were on your own to make it happen.

I hope all is well with you too!

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