Time to say goodbye Broc, good run

mh226
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4/18/2018 11:16am
So Canelo Alvarez is suspended six months for doping in boxing, yet Moto suspends Tickle for FOUR YEARS? This is insane and needs to change. WADA is providing us a service to do the independent, unbiased testing (which is paid for), they should have no influence other than as a REPORTING BODY. The series during which the infraction occured should be able to issue the penalty they feel is appropriate, with the others upholding it. If FELD suspends Tickle for 6 months, DC, MXGP and other Professional bodies should also bar him from competition for 6 months. I understand there is a lot of bureaucracy in Moto, however on the suspended talent side there is very little so it should be easy to police the suspensions.

Not sure why we let a foreign body, with limited knowledge of our sport give penalties based on the sport they are familiar with. That is like the NFL allowing the MLB to handle their suspensions.
tprice07
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4/18/2018 11:30am
DC wrote:
The FIM is a signatory to the WADA code if all of their racing disciplines, which includes Supercross (sanctioned by both AMA and FIM). Lucas Oil...
The FIM is a signatory to the WADA code if all of their racing disciplines, which includes Supercross (sanctioned by both AMA and FIM). Lucas Oil Pro Motocross is sanctioned by AMA Pro Racing and had a choice when we implemented drug-testing, and we decided to use USADA, which is basically the domestic offshoot of WADA, but easier to work with because they are based in the U.S. and extremely helpful. Motocross testing happens here, not in Germany, though USADA does list WADA penalties on their website.

The penalties are steep for failing a test, whether you're a mountain biker or motocrosser, tennis player or Formula 1 driver... Leagues like the NFL, MLB and NHL are able to write their own penalties, and it's my hope than one day SX and MX can get together and do that, and have more reasonable penalties than "Olympic-length" penalties, but SX has their FIM sanction and must adhere to the WADA code.

DC
Racer X
Who's going to make that move? You are in a very influential role and I believe you have the respect of many in the industry..what can you do to assist with this hope/dream? I understand that you are also in a tough position because of your relationship with OEMs and track promoters. If this broadens into other areas like a union might ...OEM and promoter support may fade. What is good for the rider isn't always viewed as beneficial to the OEM/promoter. (i.e. collective bargaining)

If not you who has the power to initiate such a change. As a fan I am sad to see this happen. Losing James Stewart was a major blow to the sport. Had he been suspended for 4 races or something we may have been able to squeeze a few more years out of him.

DeCoster, Hewitt, Carmichael, Stewart, Reed, Windham, Canard? It isn't all related to drug testing but a broader view of protecting the sport's athletes. There are a few top athletes that have been on the losing end of some situations that must have an opinion and care enough about the sport to help fellow athletes.
Asimo
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4/18/2018 11:31am
mh226 wrote:
So Canelo Alvarez is suspended six months for doping in boxing, yet Moto suspends Tickle for FOUR YEARS? This is insane and needs to change. WADA...
So Canelo Alvarez is suspended six months for doping in boxing, yet Moto suspends Tickle for FOUR YEARS? This is insane and needs to change. WADA is providing us a service to do the independent, unbiased testing (which is paid for), they should have no influence other than as a REPORTING BODY. The series during which the infraction occured should be able to issue the penalty they feel is appropriate, with the others upholding it. If FELD suspends Tickle for 6 months, DC, MXGP and other Professional bodies should also bar him from competition for 6 months. I understand there is a lot of bureaucracy in Moto, however on the suspended talent side there is very little so it should be easy to police the suspensions.

Not sure why we let a foreign body, with limited knowledge of our sport give penalties based on the sport they are familiar with. That is like the NFL allowing the MLB to handle their suspensions.
hes been popped TWICE for the exact same thing. Because the sentence isnt very bad............he's still cheating, or maybe he did get it from meat.........but while it can happen in 3rd world countries, its hard to prove.

The've been feeding and injecting cows with anabolics for decades and still do in some countries

dkg
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4/18/2018 12:12pm
burn1986 wrote:
^^^I see the point, but The punishments are too severe. Do we have any power or authority to change it? No, but I can still voice...
^^^I see the point, but The punishments are too severe. Do we have any power or authority to change it? No, but I can still voice my displeasure and remorse over this. Look, we all know they shoulda coulda woulda. Even they know that now. Yes, we know its their job to know it, and they should've. Even so, the FIM Guidelines and penalties should be changed.

Even in our jobs there are penalties for doing wrong, and usually these fit the crime. Yes, there are some that are career ending, but those are very egregious, like a crime, or flat out lying. In this situation, I think its appropriate to raise awareness that these penalties are way too severe. 2-4 years?! That's ridiculous, whether its motocross, tennis, or any other sport. If its just flat out lying, or taking hard drugs, then yes, it should be this severe.

So, here's whats gonna happen. Broc will probably appeal or whatever to get the penalty lessened, or something. Then he will probably get a year and a half or 2 years. This process will probably take several months or longer, and he will maybe come back when he's 30 or 31 and try to ride for a year or so, and then retire. That's it, he's done. I guess we should just all jump up and down and be happy, or say "well, that's what he gets."
Burn, let me start off by agreeing that the penalties are way too severe. Some thoughts for discussion.

Currently, it appears that the cost both in dollars and man hours make it prohibitive to design and implement our own drug testing for this sport. There really is a rather small number of riders in the testing pool when compared to other sports. This kind of limits the options to (1) adopting a program such as WADA or USADA which have the skill, protocols and expertise to do something this sport probably could not justify doing on its own; or (2) just not testing. The down side of the WADA/USADA programs are that if you want to use them they have their predefined penalty structures. I doubt they are going to change them for our sport, its kind of a situation if you want to use us, this is what you get. If you don't want it all, don't use it. As for not testing, my personal opinion is that it is needed for so many reasons including this is a skill/conditioning sport not a test for the best chemist.

I then wrestle with the hypothetical of what would be a fair penalty system that accomplishes the goal of eliminating PEDs and not being overly punitive:

1. Lets say a penalty of only disqualifying for the round in which the penalty occurs. This doesn't work because to be truly effective it would require instantaneous results for testing every rider. Impossible to do and the results take time to obtain. It wouldn't make any sense to wait months after the season to determine the results simply because the testing isn't in.

2. Lets take the other extreme of lifetime ban for every violation. This would be insane for all the reasons previously discussed in all the threads.

3. Lets take the middle ground of scaling the penalty based on rider fault. WADA/USADA attempt to do this but are much too punitive in my opinion. I suspect that part of the reason for this approach is the idea that if people realize how severe the penalty is they will not even attempt to use prohibitive substances. (As an aside, similar arguments arise in the case of the death penalty as a deterrent.) Regardless of the soundness of the deterrent effect concept, it clearly results in a occasional penalties that do not fit the "crime". Intertwined in this entire approach is to what extent is the Rider responsible for what is consumed. The WADA/USADA approach basically puts it all on the rider with only very narrowly defined exceptions based on relative negligence or fault. If your competitor poisons you, you get relief but other wise it is on the rider with the only relief being a reduction in time from 4 years to probably in the area of 1-2 years. The carry over from the Olympic cycle in the WADC is too pronounced now that WADA is being used in different sports with different event cycles, I hold out hope that the code will reflect its broader use.

While I understand the draconian deterrent effect approach, it needs to be modified. Things I'd like to see are:

1. Probation or minimal suspension for the first offense for many of the less significant prohibited substances. (I personally am OK with severe penalties for the 2nd and later offenses. If the rider can't figure it out after the first time it is all on them)

2. The FIM TUE process needs to be fixed so that it accomplishes its purpose. From what I gather it kind of resembles a black hole, things go in but may not come out.

3. There should also be better Rider advocacy that helps get the Rider through this testing process including the TUE and prohibited substances. It isn't fair to develop such a complex structure and code that allows an athlete with the best of intentions to fail simply because of ignorance or lack of ability. Athletes are generally not chemists, doctors or lawyers. They need assistance. From my understanding, USADA does a good job of this, the FIM not so much.

4. Different types of substance violations should have different penalties.

5. The entire process from time of violation through appeal needs to be sped up considerably. This isn't a case of litigating the AT&T anti-trust suit. The issues, penalties, defenses are all relatively simple. In fairness to the Sport, the Athlete and the Teams, the process needs to resolve much quicker.

So there are my thoughts, what are yours? As for Broc, I don't think anyone is celebrating. It is just another sad example of a system that needs some tweaks.

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RonJon
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4/18/2018 2:32pm
This thread is turning into a dumpster fire pretty fast.
SigPig
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4/18/2018 3:07pm
#freethetickle
davistld01
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4/18/2018 3:09pm
All this back & forth rhetoric...and the occasional asshat post about how Broc is a sinner that should be condemned to eternity in cheater-hell is a mirror image of the 10-15 page rant-a-thons that came up when James Stewart got penalized. Wow!

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