Time for Japan, Inc. to embrace the "affordable alternative" market niche ?

Related:
Create New Tag

1/5/2018 7:58 AM

It looks like suzuki may be embracing the "affordable alternative" market position already- any time you are blowing out your "new" model just a few months after it is introduced, you have to assume that competing at the top of the category is no longer the goal. Re: 2018 RMZ450's @ $6700ish. Older leftover RMZ450 models were selling at used bike prices just a short time ago- awesome deals! Not sure if they are gone.

Kawasaki seems to be in a similar situation, lots of air forked 450's @ $6500ish . similar deals on KX250F's

Yamaha and Honda seem to be doing better- or at least importing a more realistic number of bikes, because they are not routinely conducting fire sales.

All this while the $10k KTM and Husky bikes are moving quite nicely. I think the air fork clusterfuck drove buyers away from the japanese bikes. It certainly drove me away...now they are in a bit of a pickle.

It would actually be really smart for a couple of these manufacturers to go for the cheapie market slice- it is potentially huge, since not everyone wants to pay $10K for a dirtbike., potentially closer to $11k with taxes, etc

|

ride

1/5/2018 8:06 AM

user760a wrote:

It looks like suzuki may be embracing the "affordable alternative" market position already- any time you are blowing out your "new" model just a few months after it is introduced, you have to assume that competing at the top of the category is no longer the goal. Re: 2018 RMZ450's @ $6700ish. Older leftover RMZ450 models were selling at used bike prices just a short time ago- awesome deals! Not sure if they are gone.

Kawasaki seems to be in a similar situation, lots of air forked 450's @ $6500ish . similar deals on KX250F's

Yamaha and Honda seem to be doing better- or at least importing a more realistic number of bikes, because they are not routinely conducting fire sales.

All this while the $10k KTM and Husky bikes are moving quite nicely. I think the air fork clusterfuck drove buyers away from the japanese bikes. It certainly drove me away...now they are in a bit of a pickle.

It would actually be really smart for a couple of these manufacturers to go for the cheapie market slice- it is potentially huge, since not everyone wants to pay $10K for a dirtbike., potentially closer to $11k with taxes, etc

The 4cs clusterfuck nearly took me away from KTMs. I just can't fathom why such an awesome company with such an amazing bike could allow something so shitty to be put onto their bikes.

Anyways, most guys with money buy KTMs.

|

1/5/2018 8:19 AM

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

|

2009 Kawasaki KX450F
2009 Kawasaki KX250F
2002 Suzuki GSXR 600

1/5/2018 8:22 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 8:24 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

|

1/5/2018 8:24 AM

Guy on my local craigslist is tying to sell his 18 rmz450 for 8400 firm. I offered 5000 which I thought was too much. Said he was firm and has been offered $8000.....right...

|

1/5/2018 8:46 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

|

1/5/2018 8:59 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

Put race fuel in a KTM once and see what happens. For the most part the Kawi doesn't match up with the KTM at all.

|

1/5/2018 9:05 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

yz133rider wrote:

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

A new ktm also isnt 5k more than a kawi get outta here. Talking with people random people constantly seem to think ktms are like 15k new or 20k and parts need to be shipped from pluto take 17 weeks and 300 dollars for a lever.

|

1/5/2018 9:08 AM

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

yz133rider wrote:

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

yz133rider wrote:

A new ktm also isnt 5k more than a kawi get outta here. Talking with people random people constantly seem to think ktms are like 15k new or 20k and parts need to be shipped from pluto take 17 weeks and 300 dollars for a lever.

You can upgrade everything worse on the kawi to be equal or better than the ktm and still come out cheaper than buying a ktm. AND it will be to your personal likings.

|

2009 Kawasaki KX450F
2009 Kawasaki KX250F
2002 Suzuki GSXR 600

1/5/2018 9:13 AM

yz133rider wrote:

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

yz133rider wrote:

A new ktm also isnt 5k more than a kawi get outta here. Talking with people random people constantly seem to think ktms are like 15k new or 20k and parts need to be shipped from pluto take 17 weeks and 300 dollars for a lever.

Acidreamer wrote:

You can upgrade everything worse on the kawi to be equal or better than the ktm and still come out cheaper than buying a ktm. AND it will be to your personal likings.

No not really. Your not getting it down to 221 lbs revving as high and as smooth as good a clutch and hydraulic brembo brakes polished hubs much better chassis steel braided lines e start and more no matter what you spend on the kawi it cant match all of those stats.

|

1/5/2018 9:14 AM

This thread just turned into a pissing match fast.

|

1/5/2018 9:20 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 9:22 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

yz133rider wrote:

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

Exactly!

There are so few guys that could ever tell the difference, no way a ktm is $5000 better than a kx!

|

1/5/2018 9:21 AM

Dealer just sold a 450 RMZ 2018 for 6200.

How much do they have in these things?

|

1/5/2018 9:21 AM

yz133rider wrote:

Romp ktms all the time lol. Yeah. With more weight worse brakes much worse forks worse handling lower end components etc.

You romp less skilled riders becahse of your ability. The bike isnt better. And have fun with 12 dollar per gallon fuel

yz133rider wrote:

A new ktm also isnt 5k more than a kawi get outta here. Talking with people random people constantly seem to think ktms are like 15k new or 20k and parts need to be shipped from pluto take 17 weeks and 300 dollars for a lever.

Acidreamer wrote:

You can upgrade everything worse on the kawi to be equal or better than the ktm and still come out cheaper than buying a ktm. AND it will be to your personal likings.

The cool thing is the KX doesn’t really need anything!

|

1/5/2018 9:24 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Kawi and zook realize their bikes are a few steps behind the other 4 brands with the e start issue. Kawi has an all new model next year so theyre trying to clear out shop too. Zook was a flop and they know it.

At the end of the day you can still pick your fav color and have a solid bike. With money you save by buying a kawi, you can build it up to romp a ktm all day long before the ktm guy even drops a dime over $10,000. Thats why i like kawasaki so much. Its the cheap option thats just as good and still leaves you with money for upgrades.

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

agn5009 wrote:

Put race fuel in a KTM once and see what happens. For the most part the Kawi doesn't match up with the KTM at all.

What happens? Good or bad?

|

1/5/2018 9:25 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 9:26 AM

Rhino wrote:

Dealer just sold a 450 RMZ 2018 for 6200.

How much do they have in these things?

The dealer has more than that into them initially but when they aren't selling at all Suzuki will give the dealers rebates to move bikes.

My KTM dealer actually told me that he doesn't have to pay the full amount for the bike until he sends in for the ECU unlock code meaning the bike is sold.

|

Race Bike: 2018 KTM 350SXF

Other Bikes: 1985 CR80R, 1990 CR250R, 1998 PW80, Specialized Fuse Comp 29.

Sold: 2016 YZ250F, 2012 CRF250R

1/5/2018 9:27 AM

no dog in this fight at all............you can buy LOTS of titanium for 5K if you like green!!!whistling whistling

|

1/5/2018 9:36 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 9:36 AM

kkawboy14 wrote:

I put a pipe and race fuel in my KX and romp new KTMS all the time! A new ktm is not $5000 better than a new kx

agn5009 wrote:

Put race fuel in a KTM once and see what happens. For the most part the Kawi doesn't match up with the KTM at all.

Joko wrote:

What happens? Good or bad?

Race fuel for a stock bike is what I put in mine

|

1/5/2018 9:38 AM

yz133rider wrote:

A new ktm also isnt 5k more than a kawi get outta here. Talking with people random people constantly seem to think ktms are like 15k new or 20k and parts need to be shipped from pluto take 17 weeks and 300 dollars for a lever.

Acidreamer wrote:

You can upgrade everything worse on the kawi to be equal or better than the ktm and still come out cheaper than buying a ktm. AND it will be to your personal likings.

yz133rider wrote:

No not really. Your not getting it down to 221 lbs revving as high and as smooth as good a clutch and hydraulic brembo brakes polished hubs much better chassis steel braided lines e start and more no matter what you spend on the kawi it cant match all of those stats.

Ok you and me both have $10,000 each. Lets see who builds the better bike. I got $3500 to spend on suspension and motor upgrades. You wont have shit after you spend the $10,000 on the bike alone. Hell the suspension wont even be valved for you.

Meanwhile ill have all those things you listed(except estart unless you want to talk about the 2019 kawi). CP hc piston, carillo rod, upgraded cams, porting, ecu remap. Hell ill even be able to afford the gas to get the damn thing started.

I guess KTM wins in the warrenty department but they kindof have to have a good warranty when 1/2 the tech shop threads are about ktm problems.

|

2009 Kawasaki KX450F
2009 Kawasaki KX250F
2002 Suzuki GSXR 600

1/5/2018 9:42 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 9:45 AM

My buddy bought a left over '17 KTM 450 xcf for $7800. That route is better than buying a new 18 KX.

|

1/5/2018 9:50 AM

Rhino wrote:

Dealer just sold a 450 RMZ 2018 for 6200.

How much do they have in these things?

If that dealer really loaded up that bike in the guys truck for that price he lost money. Now, if he added freight, setup and some doc fees he may not have lost money.

He may have messed up and figured in the rebates for a 2017.

|

1/5/2018 9:52 AM

Someone update this thread to proper title "Kawasaki fanboys unite!"

|

1/5/2018 9:53 AM

Parts are actually crazy inexpensive for a KTM.

|

1/5/2018 9:56 AM

Moto520 wrote:

Parts are actually crazy inexpensive for a KTM.

I don’t ever need parts for my kx......couldn’t resist smile

|

1/5/2018 10:00 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

You can upgrade everything worse on the kawi to be equal or better than the ktm and still come out cheaper than buying a ktm. AND it will be to your personal likings.

yz133rider wrote:

No not really. Your not getting it down to 221 lbs revving as high and as smooth as good a clutch and hydraulic brembo brakes polished hubs much better chassis steel braided lines e start and more no matter what you spend on the kawi it cant match all of those stats.

Acidreamer wrote:

Ok you and me both have $10,000 each. Lets see who builds the better bike. I got $3500 to spend on suspension and motor upgrades. You wont have shit after you spend the $10,000 on the bike alone. Hell the suspension wont even be valved for you.

Meanwhile ill have all those things you listed(except estart unless you want to talk about the 2019 kawi). CP hc piston, carillo rod, upgraded cams, porting, ecu remap. Hell ill even be able to afford the gas to get the damn thing started.

I guess KTM wins in the warrenty department but they kindof have to have a good warranty when 1/2 the tech shop threads are about ktm problems.

After seeing this I decided to consult my price list. I work in sales at a dealer that happens to sell both Kawasaki and KTM.

KX450F $9,699 CAD

KTM 450SX-F $10,999 CAD

You have $1300. get your suspension set up or some minor motor work and you're out of cash. I don't know where you are pulling $3500 from but you're way off bud.

|

Washed up Canadian ex-pro couch racer. Selling bikes for a living

2008 KTM 525XC
2009 KTM 450SX
2016 YFZ450R


1/5/2018 10:04 AM

yz133rider wrote:

No not really. Your not getting it down to 221 lbs revving as high and as smooth as good a clutch and hydraulic brembo brakes polished hubs much better chassis steel braided lines e start and more no matter what you spend on the kawi it cant match all of those stats.

Acidreamer wrote:

Ok you and me both have $10,000 each. Lets see who builds the better bike. I got $3500 to spend on suspension and motor upgrades. You wont have shit after you spend the $10,000 on the bike alone. Hell the suspension wont even be valved for you.

Meanwhile ill have all those things you listed(except estart unless you want to talk about the 2019 kawi). CP hc piston, carillo rod, upgraded cams, porting, ecu remap. Hell ill even be able to afford the gas to get the damn thing started.

I guess KTM wins in the warrenty department but they kindof have to have a good warranty when 1/2 the tech shop threads are about ktm problems.

bh84 wrote:

After seeing this I decided to consult my price list. I work in sales at a dealer that happens to sell both Kawasaki and KTM.

KX450F $9,699 CAD

KTM 450SX-F $10,999 CAD

You have $1300. get your suspension set up or some minor motor work and you're out of cash. I don't know where you are pulling $3500 from but you're way off bud.

Msrp of $9600 for ktm, just googled it, basically $10000. OPs price of $6500 for the kx. i didnt break out the calculator. But i do know my local dealer is selling kx450s for less than $7000 and the ktms are still around $9500.

|

2009 Kawasaki KX450F
2009 Kawasaki KX250F
2002 Suzuki GSXR 600

1/5/2018 10:09 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Ok you and me both have $10,000 each. Lets see who builds the better bike. I got $3500 to spend on suspension and motor upgrades. You wont have shit after you spend the $10,000 on the bike alone. Hell the suspension wont even be valved for you.

Meanwhile ill have all those things you listed(except estart unless you want to talk about the 2019 kawi). CP hc piston, carillo rod, upgraded cams, porting, ecu remap. Hell ill even be able to afford the gas to get the damn thing started.

I guess KTM wins in the warrenty department but they kindof have to have a good warranty when 1/2 the tech shop threads are about ktm problems.

bh84 wrote:

After seeing this I decided to consult my price list. I work in sales at a dealer that happens to sell both Kawasaki and KTM.

KX450F $9,699 CAD

KTM 450SX-F $10,999 CAD

You have $1300. get your suspension set up or some minor motor work and you're out of cash. I don't know where you are pulling $3500 from but you're way off bud.

Acidreamer wrote:

Msrp of $9600 for ktm, just googled it, basically $10000. OPs price of $6500 for the kx. i didnt break out the calculator. But i do know my local dealer is selling kx450s for less than $7000 and the ktms are still around $9500.

You really think there arent deals out there for ktms? Ridersville cycle cernics both in the area and will deal on them big time.

Rmzs and kawis sure get blown out big time thats what happens when you lose every shootout year after year

|

1/5/2018 10:13 AM

There is a gap between the OTD price of the KTM and the RMZ/KX and it's generally about $2500.00 using real street prices, not MSRP.

The crazy thing is that the KTM are getting it, frickin things are everywhere.

|

1/5/2018 10:14 AM

I went from a 17 kx250f to a 17 250 sxf just recently and was disappointed. Not because the ktm was bad, but beause the differences were much less than forums, magazines and shootouts made it look like.
Dont get me wrong, the ktm definitely has the better brakes, engine and clutch. Handling and suspension are about the same out of the box.
The Ktm is faster in a straight line, but around a track it simply depends on the rider which bike is faster. All new bikes are good (i never rode a suzuki though), and with the right setup can be equally fast.

|

1/5/2018 10:22 AM
Edited Date/Time: 1/5/2018 10:34 AM

Forty wrote:

There is a gap between the OTD price of the KTM and the RMZ/KX and it's generally about $2500.00 using real street prices, not MSRP.

The crazy thing is that the KTM are getting it, frickin things are everywhere.

This is my point.

The Europeans are in touch with the market. They care about giving people what they want. They don't build 37 other products and offer dirtbikes as an afterthought. They are solidly invested/investing in dirtbikes. For these reasons and others they are rightly seen as the leaders at this point.

It helps to offer the bikes that people want. 350's. an entire range of Two strokes designed this decade. Air forks that are light yet simple and user friendly. E start.on and on.

I think the best bet for the Japanese to move off road bikes, short of actually waking up and offering what people want (never happen in the follow the leader world of japanese bikes), is to undercut the Euro prices and admit that they are the low cost alternative

|

ride