Tickle b sample positive

Question
Profile picture for user Question
Posts
3075
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
FR
Question 5/15/2018 1:20pm
5/15/2018 1:20pm
PTshox wrote:
If the promotors won't step up to fix this situation the riders should form a union. The riders would need to man up and say "we're...
If the promotors won't step up to fix this situation the riders should form a union.

The riders would need to man up and say "we're against these penalties. A rider should be disqualified for the series, but not multiple years". Then boycott a race - all of the riders - shut it down. See how good a show happens with no riders! Then negotiate from strength. The agents could step in and help make this happened by leading with the top riders getting on board
.
I doubt it will happen… no balls! If I was one of those top agents or a rider… I’d work to make it happen. Nothing will change unless the riders take control. Leaving it up to the bureaucrats and nothing will get solved. A rider boycott is the best way to show strength. Man up.
I agree and understand the reasoning but you will scare industry people talking about union Laughing : call it "rider association". Wink It sounds too much like the riders are like some meat that can be replaced anyway, the wheel will continue to turn so who cares. The main issue is the riders are so individualist that they won't get easily on board.

In all cases, I feel for Tickle and I wish JS7 would have defended himself hard that way. A angry JS7 would have broke down the internet. Tickle won't change the system overnight but I really hope he can get a reasonable sanction, something related to how performance/result enhancing the amount of substance was in the samples, in which case could result in a minor sanction.
Andy_Greenney 5/15/2018 1:20pm
5/15/2018 1:20pm
Never intentionally or negligently taken PEDs?....begs the question how it got in his system?....or is he saying the samples are wrong?
TDeath21
Profile picture for user TDeath21
Posts
6523
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO US
TDeath21 5/15/2018 1:25pm
5/15/2018 1:25pm
toomanykaws wrote:
If the VitalMx members here were on the jury for a trial. Just wheel the guy down to the cell lock it and throw away the...
If the VitalMx members here were on the jury for a trial. Just wheel the guy down to the cell lock it and throw away the key. Everyone can go home.
Yeah. Fuck science am I right!?
kiwifan
Profile picture for user kiwifan
Posts
9485
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
kiwifan 5/15/2018 1:25pm
5/15/2018 1:25pm
toomanykaws wrote:
If the VitalMx members here were on the jury for a trial. Just wheel the guy down to the cell lock it and throw away the...
If the VitalMx members here were on the jury for a trial. Just wheel the guy down to the cell lock it and throw away the key. Everyone can go home.
Really? Seems most of us here are in support of Tickle not against...

The Shop

See All »
mxrose3
Profile picture for user mxrose3
Posts
2170
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Delmar, DE US
Fantasy
1046th
mxrose3 5/15/2018 1:28pm
5/15/2018 1:28pm
Seattle Mariners MLB player just got caught using a banned substance and suspended for 80 games. Thats half of a season of baseball.
C'mon WADA, get it together!

Seattle Mariners player suspended
colintrax
Profile picture for user colintrax
Posts
4704
Joined
8/25/2015
Location
Taylorsville, GA US
Fantasy
2342nd
colintrax 5/15/2018 1:30pm
5/15/2018 1:30pm
Andy_Greenney wrote:
Never intentionally or negligently taken PEDs?....begs the question how it got in his system?....or is he saying the samples are wrong?
As I said in the other thread, every lab chooses their own minimum threshold for a positive. The minimum here might be excessively small, and he ate something that didnt have the ingredient listed because it's not purposely put in, but whatever he ate came in contact with it. They owe it to Broc, and us fans to disclose the amount they found in his sample.
CarlinoJoeVideo
Profile picture for user CarlinoJoeVideo
Posts
7357
Joined
11/30/2013
Location
Portland/Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
2339th
CarlinoJoeVideo 5/15/2018 1:38pm
5/15/2018 1:38pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking...
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking. Both tests are positive, what else needs to be said? How many times have the other riders been tested and noone came up positive like this. It's not like he's being set up, unfortunately it's in his system and it's against the rules, case closed.
TheNewOriginal wrote:
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive...
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive result...?
No I wouldnt have my food tested, but I would be eating clean food or preparing it myself. Like stated above, this substance doesn’t just show up in your salad or grilled chicken.
mxrose3
Profile picture for user mxrose3
Posts
2170
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Delmar, DE US
Fantasy
1046th
mxrose3 5/15/2018 1:42pm
5/15/2018 1:42pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking...
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking. Both tests are positive, what else needs to be said? How many times have the other riders been tested and noone came up positive like this. It's not like he's being set up, unfortunately it's in his system and it's against the rules, case closed.
TheNewOriginal wrote:
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive...
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive result...?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
No I wouldnt have my food tested, but I would be eating clean food or preparing it myself. Like stated above, this substance doesn’t just show...
No I wouldnt have my food tested, but I would be eating clean food or preparing it myself. Like stated above, this substance doesn’t just show up in your salad or grilled chicken.
Maybe someone else prepared his food for him....
mx617
Profile picture for user mx617
Posts
1399
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Trail CA
mx617 5/15/2018 1:43pm
5/15/2018 1:43pm
PTshox wrote:
If the promotors won't step up to fix this situation the riders should form a union. The riders would need to man up and say "we're...
If the promotors won't step up to fix this situation the riders should form a union.

The riders would need to man up and say "we're against these penalties. A rider should be disqualified for the series, but not multiple years". Then boycott a race - all of the riders - shut it down. See how good a show happens with no riders! Then negotiate from strength. The agents could step in and help make this happened by leading with the top riders getting on board
.
I doubt it will happen… no balls! If I was one of those top agents or a rider… I’d work to make it happen. Nothing will change unless the riders take control. Leaving it up to the bureaucrats and nothing will get solved. A rider boycott is the best way to show strength. Man up.
kNewc wrote:
I don't think it's as much about "no balls" as much as it's about their contract. They are contracted to ride that race. Sitting out would...
I don't think it's as much about "no balls" as much as it's about their contract. They are contracted to ride that race. Sitting out would make a powerful statement, but who knows what it would do to their contracts. If you were making quite a bit of money as a top 5 guy, would you risk it due to some other guys failed drug test? I sure as hell wouldn't.
If I was a top 5 guy making millions I'd be scared as hell that a tiny amount of a mystery substance in my system could ruin my career. In that context it makes more sense why the Tomacs etc of the world might be on board.

Still a ton of reasons why they wouldn't be, but I don't think they'd be risking their careers sitting out one race. Getting popped by WADA does risk their careers.
Mit12
Profile picture for user Mit12
Posts
1991
Joined
6/23/2014
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ US
Mit12 5/15/2018 1:49pm
5/15/2018 1:49pm
First. No one is failing drug test from eating food. This is one of the reasons they have set thresholds.
Second. Did anyone really think his “B” sample was going to pass?
Just like we will never know the truth about who killed Kennedy, Brock will never tell that he took something banned.
WADA is extremely out of line with respect to punishment but they do not make mistakes with testing samples.
lostboy819
Profile picture for user lostboy819
Posts
11509
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1442nd
lostboy819 5/15/2018 2:29pm
5/15/2018 2:29pm
TheNewOriginal wrote:
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive...
You would have everything you eat chemically tested for banned substances and also test for for any and all food combinations that could create a positive result...?
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
No I wouldnt have my food tested, but I would be eating clean food or preparing it myself. Like stated above, this substance doesn’t just show...
No I wouldnt have my food tested, but I would be eating clean food or preparing it myself. Like stated above, this substance doesn’t just show up in your salad or grilled chicken.
mxrose3 wrote:
Maybe someone else prepared his food for him....
Or the more probable reason is it took something he should not have taken and got caught. Pinch I agree the penalty is pretty severe but the riders and teams wanted the drug testing and most seem to be playing by the rules if only a couple have been caught.
scooterwhipmoore 5/15/2018 2:36pm
5/15/2018 2:36pm
DC needs to ditch WADA and contract the NFL or MLB system, maybe even have a court of peers judge them.

FREE BROC!
deluxeman
Profile picture for user deluxeman
Posts
789
Joined
6/27/2016
Location
Saranac, MI US
deluxeman 5/15/2018 2:38pm
5/15/2018 2:38pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Or the more probable reason is it took something he should not have taken and got caught. :pinch: I agree the penalty is pretty severe but...
Or the more probable reason is it took something he should not have taken and got caught. Pinch I agree the penalty is pretty severe but the riders and teams wanted the drug testing and most seem to be playing by the rules if only a couple have been caught.
What penalty are you speaking of? As far as I know there has been no penalty announced. He has been fired from KTM, but I have no knowledge of WADA/FIM handing out anything. The 4 year ban has been thrown around here and elsewhere like it is fact. As I understand it, there is some leeway/wiggle room in the penalty time. Whether or not this happens is still undetermined.

My hope is they look at the substance and the amount and act accordingly. Brock broke the rules and needs to be held accountable.
kongols
Profile picture for user kongols
Posts
23995
Joined
9/22/2009
Location
Riga LV
kongols 5/15/2018 2:56pm
5/15/2018 2:56pm
scooterwhipmoore wrote:
DC needs to ditch WADA and contract the NFL or MLB system, maybe even have a court of peers judge them.

FREE BROC!
Nationals are under United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA). MLB actually asked for USADA help not that long ago.
SwingHard
Profile picture for user SwingHard
Posts
485
Joined
3/14/2017
Location
Sacramento, CA US
SwingHard 5/15/2018 3:21pm
5/15/2018 3:21pm
scooterwhipmoore wrote:
DC needs to ditch WADA and contract the NFL or MLB system, maybe even have a court of peers judge them.

FREE BROC!
kongols wrote:
Nationals are under United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA). MLB actually asked for USADA help not that long ago.
MLB asked for USADA help? When & Why?
PTshox
Profile picture for user PTshox
Posts
1350
Joined
10/1/2011
Location
Highland Village, TX US
PTshox 5/15/2018 3:31pm
5/15/2018 3:31pm Edited Date/Time 5/15/2018 3:35pm
PTshox wrote:
If they all sit it out.. .if they band together...what are the factory's going to do? Hire a replacement rider? Another one that sat out the...
If they all sit it out.. .if they band together...what are the factory's going to do? Hire a replacement rider? Another one that sat out the race?

It has to be a group thing. Commitment. 100%. Another way is the factory teams could band together. But best to have all the riders do it. Put the control in the riders hands. Time for a union.
Robgvx wrote:
So all the riders who are abiding by the rules, and have tested clean, are going to band together and boycott a race because the guy...
So all the riders who are abiding by the rules, and have tested clean, are going to band together and boycott a race because the guy who got busted is in for a penalty that’s too severe?
Well, one of those guys that has tested clean maybe the next to not test clean.... they, the riders, need to think about what's happening and if the penalty is too severe. I think it is too severe. Only they the riders can make the stand and get a change done.

If you're not willing to step up now.. don't be surprised when your career is over due to something way too out of control. That's my point. The riders need to help dictate what is reasonable and what is not.
kage173
Profile picture for user kage173
Posts
2163
Joined
11/27/2015
Location
TX US
kage173 5/15/2018 4:07pm
5/15/2018 4:07pm
Roostermx58 wrote:
It seems like methylhexan (what Tickle was tested positive for) is found in a lot of dietary supplements however may not be listed on the ingredients...
It seems like methylhexan (what Tickle was tested positive for) is found in a lot of dietary supplements however may not be listed on the ingredients. It is also a component of the oil from Pelargonium graveolens, which is approved for use in food.

https://thecatlinperspective.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/methylhexanamine-…
This article was written in 2010. That substance is banned in most states, as in, not allowed on the shelves in any shape or form. The idea that he took the wrong whey protein or ate at the wrong Burger King is highly, highly improbable. What is probable is that he took a substance that helps a lot and clears the system very quickly.

Everybody keeps talking about the top guys watching their food. Well guess what. Some of the "privateer" level guys get tested too. You think they are paying a nutritionist and having a chef deliver custom meals to them? Hell no, they're eating at Dennys and Subway just trying to make it to the next race. And they aren't coming in hot.

Why do so many people have a hard time believing that a professional racer would try to gain an illegal advantage?
Squirrelings 5/15/2018 4:24pm
5/15/2018 4:24pm
mx_563 wrote:
I'd be all over the Canadian series right now if i were Broc. Here's a real opportunity for Canada to embrace any "alleged" violators and pump...
I'd be all over the Canadian series right now if i were Broc.

Here's a real opportunity for Canada to embrace any "alleged" violators and pump up their series. meanwhile "alleged" violators have a chance to continue racing and earning a living.

Sometimes what seems like a curse ends up being a blessing. Time to start making lemonade.
Roostermx58 wrote:
He would have to find a team that would hire an alleged doper. I know the rules are less stringent there, but would you want someone...
He would have to find a team that would hire an alleged doper. I know the rules are less stringent there, but would you want someone on your team who has allegedly been doping to gain advantage?
If they hire Clason, they'll hire Tickle.

Pit Row

See All »
make1go
Profile picture for user make1go
Posts
905
Joined
2/3/2018
Location
BF
make1go 5/15/2018 4:27pm
5/15/2018 4:27pm
CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking...
I feel bad for the guy, but if I was getting paid multiply 6 figures I'd make sure I knew everything I was eating or drinking. Both tests are positive, what else needs to be said? How many times have the other riders been tested and noone came up positive like this. It's not like he's being set up, unfortunately it's in his system and it's against the rules, case closed.
false positives are common in any testing.

in the real world in many
countries, driving, you get breath or swab tested if positive then go to be blood tested, and then a fine or something, which can be challenged in court.

kinda different to how this bs is being played out

imo wada is swamped with buearocracy and work loads and poor proceedures and possibly corruption...

its quite possible a shit storm sooner or later will be played out on a world scale.

now if improprieties are found in wada, who going to foot the bill, that will run into 10s of millions if everyone who got done sues.

has there been a test case in a real court?

protesting your innocence is not just a ploy of the guilty..
aeffertz
Profile picture for user aeffertz
Posts
9269
Joined
7/16/2015
Location
Eau Claire, WI US
aeffertz 5/15/2018 4:32pm
5/15/2018 4:32pm
I like Broc and would like to think he is being treated unfairly in this. Isn't innocent until proven guilty how things work? I get that they said the tests came back positive but they (according to his posts) have yet to show any evidence of the test results from the labs that tested them.

Don't you need cold hard evidence to prove someone is guilty?
Phantom 661
Profile picture for user Phantom 661
Posts
717
Joined
2/7/2013
Location
Torrance, CA US
Phantom 661 5/15/2018 4:56pm
5/15/2018 4:56pm
kage173 wrote:
This article was written in 2010. That substance is banned in most states, as in, not allowed on the shelves in any shape or form. The...
This article was written in 2010. That substance is banned in most states, as in, not allowed on the shelves in any shape or form. The idea that he took the wrong whey protein or ate at the wrong Burger King is highly, highly improbable. What is probable is that he took a substance that helps a lot and clears the system very quickly.

Everybody keeps talking about the top guys watching their food. Well guess what. Some of the "privateer" level guys get tested too. You think they are paying a nutritionist and having a chef deliver custom meals to them? Hell no, they're eating at Dennys and Subway just trying to make it to the next race. And they aren't coming in hot.

Why do so many people have a hard time believing that a professional racer would try to gain an illegal advantage?
It is true that the temptation to gain or achieve better results in one's performance in
pro sports is too great for some to pass up. While I'm reserving judgment for Tickle pending an official outcome... and perhaps even afterward, I agree that it's not just a given that there could be no willful violation.
Lucifa.
Profile picture for user Lucifa.
Posts
1415
Joined
4/14/2009
Location
Christchurch NZ
Lucifa. 5/15/2018 5:04pm
5/15/2018 5:04pm
The last case of an athlete being sanctioned for Methylhexaneamine was back in 2015. Searching Methylhexaneamine on the below link gives you an idea on the variation of penalties handed out for that banned substance.

https://www.usada.org/testing/results/sanctions/
bowser977
Profile picture for user bowser977
Posts
174
Joined
4/15/2018
Location
Bakersfield, CA US
bowser977 5/15/2018 6:02pm
5/15/2018 6:02pm
People just can't accept the fact he tested dirty. Punishment too harsh? Shouldn't have taken it. That stuff just doesn't appear in your system. Grinning
make1go
Profile picture for user make1go
Posts
905
Joined
2/3/2018
Location
BF
make1go 5/15/2018 6:05pm
5/15/2018 6:05pm
Mit12 wrote:
First. No one is failing drug test from eating food. This is one of the reasons they have set thresholds. Second. Did anyone really think his...
First. No one is failing drug test from eating food. This is one of the reasons they have set thresholds.
Second. Did anyone really think his “B” sample was going to pass?
Just like we will never know the truth about who killed Kennedy, Brock will never tell that he took something banned.
WADA is extremely out of line with respect to punishment but they do not make mistakes with testing samples.
are you seriously going to say that they never make mistakes...?....stupidezt thing posted, everyone makes them or are you saying they are perfect....?
Davidisthemovie 5/15/2018 6:08pm
5/15/2018 6:08pm
I feel bad for the guy but let's be honest stars get treated differently. For those trying to compare it to Stewart it's just not in the same ball park. Stewart had two titles and several wins Tickle has no titles in the premier class. Dungey never tested positive but if he did I doubt KTM would just cut him. All in all Tickle was just another guy who was never going to contend. He will be replaced by someone who will perform just to that standard. New opening at KTM with a lot of talent that would kill for that spot.
MelonFan123
Profile picture for user MelonFan123
Posts
1513
Joined
8/20/2006
Location
Ventura/LA County, CA US
MelonFan123 5/15/2018 7:12pm
5/15/2018 7:12pm
IMO I think the banned substance was in a product that wasn't properly labeled.

Jason Anderson mentioned in an interview with Wedge after this went down how Broc "gets stuff at GNC".

I'm in digital marketing and a few clients of mine are in the supplement/nutraceutical field. That industry for the most part is unregulated and filled with "fly by night" brands that come and go. It's amazing how shady the people behind these products are, I deal with them every day.

To think that their labels aren't 100% accurate is unfortunately VERY believable. In the rare case that some do get caught for some violation or whatever, they just shut down one shell company or DBA and re-launch the same product under a new name.
TbonesPop
Profile picture for user TbonesPop
Posts
3462
Joined
1/26/2010
Location
Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
405th
TbonesPop 5/15/2018 7:51pm
5/15/2018 7:51pm
Simple solution, eat real food. Stop eating any shit you can't say without it being an acronym. I sincerely doubt Broc was trying to cheat, but it's too easy for products to get cross contaminated in an industry with little to no quality control or manufacturing standards. If 2 samples tested positive, he had it in his system. Nothing to do but take a long hard look in the mirror.
milliebays
Profile picture for user milliebays
Posts
886
Joined
6/16/2017
Location
Afton, IA US
milliebays 5/15/2018 7:57pm
5/15/2018 7:57pm
MelonFan123 wrote:
IMO I think the banned substance was in a product that wasn't properly labeled. Jason Anderson mentioned in an interview with Wedge after this went down...
IMO I think the banned substance was in a product that wasn't properly labeled.

Jason Anderson mentioned in an interview with Wedge after this went down how Broc "gets stuff at GNC".

I'm in digital marketing and a few clients of mine are in the supplement/nutraceutical field. That industry for the most part is unregulated and filled with "fly by night" brands that come and go. It's amazing how shady the people behind these products are, I deal with them every day.

To think that their labels aren't 100% accurate is unfortunately VERY believable. In the rare case that some do get caught for some violation or whatever, they just shut down one shell company or DBA and re-launch the same product under a new name.
general question, what would the incentive be for them to put something in their supps unlabeled? genuinely curious how it works.
TbonesPop
Profile picture for user TbonesPop
Posts
3462
Joined
1/26/2010
Location
Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
405th
TbonesPop 5/15/2018 9:26pm
5/15/2018 9:26pm
milliebays wrote:
general question, what would the incentive be for them to put something in their supps unlabeled? genuinely curious how it works.
It's likely not that the supplement company put it in there and didn't label it correctly. The industry is super shady and unregulated for the most part. I doubt a company would add that to a product intentionally and not put it on the label. The most likely scenario (outside of Broc just simply outright cheating, getting caught, and lying) is that the manufacturing company didn't properly clean their equipment between batches of various products they make. Most supplement companies don't make their own products, they have them "contract manufactured". The contract manufacturers make various products for multiple companies. It's easy to get cross contamination from batch to batch. The supplement industry is not regulated like the pharmaceutical industry is. In the Pharma industry, you have GMP manufacturing plus "change control" processes where there is a requirement for validation on every batch of product made. This validation step requires the use of cleaning additives that remove 100% of the previous batch before the next batch can be made - then validation testing is performed to ensure the equipment is clean and there is no trace of material from the previous batch. This is one reason why the pharmaceutical products in this country are expensive - not that they still aren't over priced, but there is a legit additional cost kicker for GMP and validation steps for QC. The supplement industry has none of the requirements that the pharma industry has.

This is the reason why Broc wants to know what level he tested positive for and for that to be public. If it was a high amount, there is no way it was cross contamination. If it was a trace amount, it is highly likely it was cross contamination. It may not fix the issue for Broc, but it could be an indicator as to what happened.
milliebays
Profile picture for user milliebays
Posts
886
Joined
6/16/2017
Location
Afton, IA US
milliebays 5/15/2018 9:30pm
5/15/2018 9:30pm
TbonesPop wrote:
It's likely not that the supplement company put it in there and didn't label it correctly. The industry is super shady and unregulated for the most...
It's likely not that the supplement company put it in there and didn't label it correctly. The industry is super shady and unregulated for the most part. I doubt a company would add that to a product intentionally and not put it on the label. The most likely scenario (outside of Broc just simply outright cheating, getting caught, and lying) is that the manufacturing company didn't properly clean their equipment between batches of various products they make. Most supplement companies don't make their own products, they have them "contract manufactured". The contract manufacturers make various products for multiple companies. It's easy to get cross contamination from batch to batch. The supplement industry is not regulated like the pharmaceutical industry is. In the Pharma industry, you have GMP manufacturing plus "change control" processes where there is a requirement for validation on every batch of product made. This validation step requires the use of cleaning additives that remove 100% of the previous batch before the next batch can be made - then validation testing is performed to ensure the equipment is clean and there is no trace of material from the previous batch. This is one reason why the pharmaceutical products in this country are expensive - not that they still aren't over priced, but there is a legit additional cost kicker for GMP and validation steps for QC. The supplement industry has none of the requirements that the pharma industry has.

This is the reason why Broc wants to know what level he tested positive for and for that to be public. If it was a high amount, there is no way it was cross contamination. If it was a trace amount, it is highly likely it was cross contamination. It may not fix the issue for Broc, but it could be an indicator as to what happened.
Thx!

Re Broc, You've got to think they produce the actual test result for him at the outset. Then again, due process is a foreign process in the EU.

Post a reply to: Tickle b sample positive