These crappy friggin' tracks........

jeffro503
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2/24/2013 10:52am Edited Date/Time 2/27/2013 6:15am
The start is a huge factor.

BUT......it always has been......just not as important as it is now days. It all goes hand in hand with these tracks. There is nothing out there that is really separating the men from the boys.......lap times from 1st -10th......is usually split by about 1 second. What?.......it used to be separated by a good 4-6sec a lap.

Easy-fast tracks that seem to be one lined and hard to pass on unless you really force it.....like Arenacross. ( except AX is slower )

Where the hell are these big technical tracks with timing sections that have 5 different ways to go through them? There is nothing out there to separate these guys.

I know this is an exaggeration.......but if a beginner drag races a pro down a logging road.......the beginner has a good chance at winning. They make the tracks this easy (bland).......and everyone goes the same speed.......everyone does all the obstacles the same way.

Where the hell are the bigger "thinking man's" type tracks?

Want safer tracks?........put more obstacles in.......to slow them down a bit. Get some shit out there that separates the men from the boys and gets them "thinking" a little!

I enjoyed watching the race last night......just like all of them. But honestly.......I felt like I was watching paint dry.
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KMC440
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2/24/2013 11:21am
Remember when someone would hit a rhythm section and everyone would go nuts when they pulled a triple or would quad it. Oh well we wanted safer tracks I suppose.
wardy
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2/24/2013 11:26am
KMC440 wrote:
Remember when someone would hit a rhythm section and everyone would go nuts when they pulled a triple or would quad it. Oh well we wanted...
Remember when someone would hit a rhythm section and everyone would go nuts when they pulled a triple or would quad it. Oh well we wanted safer tracks I suppose.
and today most of the "contenders" are racing. so i think it's a positive.

hell there has been "real racing this year" also.

safer tracks make better races tracks.
KMC440
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2/24/2013 11:32am
I just see the obstacles set up in a way that doesn't readily offer a reward for a risk. Good luck down there in D17 this year by the way.
dirtnasty
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2/24/2013 11:32am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2013 11:36am
Last nights course was a huge improvement on the past two rounds, in my opinion.

I think we'd all like to see better courses, more variation, and alternate lines, but there's only so much they can do.

I agree about putting in some slower obstacles to bring the pace down and force these guys to find a way to go fast rather than flat out triple triple straights.

When does the outdoor series start again?

The Shop

Choppy
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2/24/2013 11:34am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2013 11:35am
The race only seems to be to the first turn nowadays.

Both classes were lead from start to finish by the person who got the start. I don't really consider that good racing.
motofab36
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2/24/2013 11:37am
I'm split on this one. I didnt care for the track layout this week or last week, however, its hard to bitch about lap times being so close witch means the racing is closer. It gets pretty boring when the top couple guys break away each week.
NV825
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2/24/2013 11:43am
As long as all the rides are healthy for when the real series starts at Hangtown then I'm all for safer tracks. Plus these riders are all so close in speed that it doesn't shock me that they can't catch and pass each other with ease.
The Rock
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2/24/2013 11:46am
jeffro503 wrote:
The start is a huge factor. BUT......it always has been......just not as important as it is now days. It all goes hand in hand with these...
The start is a huge factor.

BUT......it always has been......just not as important as it is now days. It all goes hand in hand with these tracks. There is nothing out there that is really separating the men from the boys.......lap times from 1st -10th......is usually split by about 1 second. What?.......it used to be separated by a good 4-6sec a lap.

Easy-fast tracks that seem to be one lined and hard to pass on unless you really force it.....like Arenacross. ( except AX is slower )

Where the hell are these big technical tracks with timing sections that have 5 different ways to go through them? There is nothing out there to separate these guys.

I know this is an exaggeration.......but if a beginner drag races a pro down a logging road.......the beginner has a good chance at winning. They make the tracks this easy (bland).......and everyone goes the same speed.......everyone does all the obstacles the same way.

Where the hell are the bigger "thinking man's" type tracks?

Want safer tracks?........put more obstacles in.......to slow them down a bit. Get some shit out there that separates the men from the boys and gets them "thinking" a little!

I enjoyed watching the race last night......just like all of them. But honestly.......I felt like I was watching paint dry.
Want safer tracks?........put more obstacles in.......to slow them down a bit. Get some shit out there that separates the men from the boys and gets them "thinking" a little!

Excellent post and I couldn't agree more. Slowing them down a bit would also get us close to minute lap times which is a major sore point with me. Given the cost of tickets fans should see 15 minutes of 250 action and 20 minutes of 450 action.

I couldn't disagree more that safer tracks equal boring tracks.

Instead of bowl turn after bowl turn how about throwing in some gnarly off camber turns and more flat turns? Put the emphasis on riding skills rather than timing. Few years ago at Altanta they had a few flat corners and it provided some of the best racing in both classes that season.
WhKnuckle
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2/24/2013 11:46am
dirtnasty wrote:
Last nights course was a huge improvement on the past two rounds, in my opinion. I think we'd all like to see better courses, more variation...
Last nights course was a huge improvement on the past two rounds, in my opinion.

I think we'd all like to see better courses, more variation, and alternate lines, but there's only so much they can do.

I agree about putting in some slower obstacles to bring the pace down and force these guys to find a way to go fast rather than flat out triple triple straights.

When does the outdoor series start again?
It seemed that way to me, too. They had the turn with the double on the inside or you could sweep around the outside, and the sand section had a couple of options too.

I wonder how much all the section timing and team analysis is affecting the riders' intuition. I watched the segment on Alessi and Mike Genova and all of their discussions, and they were saying, "If Mike doesn't jump that, he's screwed." If the rider is getting feedback like that all the time, all the riders are naturally going to wind up with the same rhythms and lines in corners. Teams have always given riders some feedback but these days it's so specific and so data driven that it short circuits the riders' intuitive feel about lines. Too much science will ruin an art form, for sure.
FreshTopEnd
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2/24/2013 11:56am
I honestly think the race would have been more interesting to watch if they had spent more time on the first five in the broadcast. Yes, the results would have been the same, but the gaps were pretty tight, especially between Stew and RV, and close enough to hold the anticipation/excitement level up. Cutting away from them for so long took away from that and reinforced that there was nothing much happening.

But they are short races and I recognize that they're trying to get more exposure further back.
kardy
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2/24/2013 12:04pm
"Wow that track totally SUCKED!" ... said one ATL podium finisher to another following their main event.
jeffro503
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2/24/2013 12:11pm
I'm 100% all about keeping the riders safe..........that in itself should be the utmost important thing no matter what.

And again....I love the live coverage , I love the racing and so forth......just seems to be missing some things.

FWIW.....when I ran an AX track up here in the NW , I made track changes weekly. When my bosses forced me to smooth things out and make all the sections "easy" and "fast".......my injury rate went through the roof. Riders blowing through fences ) When he gave me the go ahead to put in 70' triples , big timing sections , flat deep tilled corners and so forth.....it slowed the slower riders down.....and gave the fast guys a little more of a challenge. My injury rate.....went down!

Some people tend to think......an easy fast track is safer......when it isn't in most cases......it just ups the speed of "all" the riders". Putting in some hairy shit gets riders to think a little more , and use their creative side.

Another words.......separating the men from boys is just a term I used.....but in reality.....it does exactly that.
jeffro503
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2/24/2013 12:12pm
kardy wrote:
"Wow that track totally SUCKED!" ... said one ATL podium finisher to another following their main event.
Haha....really Kardy? Which one if you don't mind me asking?
FlaNard
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2/24/2013 12:27pm
How many passes for the lead have there been this year that were, say, after the first lap was over? Yeah, the tracks have killed the racing this year. Get the start and follow the leader. If you don't get the start you had better hope someone falls down.
Jordan421
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2/24/2013 12:29pm
bring back former racers design tracks.
jeffro503
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2/24/2013 12:33pm
Jordan421 wrote:
bring back former racers design tracks.
Oh man.......that right there is what I'm talking about!

What was it....2008 or 2009 when Larocco and TP199 designed a few? Those were two of the best tracks I have ever seen!

We need more rider designed tracks!
berno929
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2/24/2013 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2013 12:48pm
For those saying lap times are too close for the top 10 guys... wtf? Ever realized we have more real top guys than ever? Its still the same gap between RV and Brayton after 20 laps.. the difference is that there are 6 guys in between them instead of 1. There were a few different rythms last night and 180 turns... RV is able to make some passes when he needs to. I think it's just excuses... the field is stacked and they blame the track for not getting on the box after starting 10th but everyone ahead has won a race in the last 2 years... take Dungey Barcia Canard out.. Reed wouldn't complain he cant pass when he makes a few passes and end up 3rd instead of 6th (just an example; dunno if Reed complained about tracks)

Practice times aren't all that different from race results... more options on the track wouldn't change that. If you add more options they'll all figure out the fastest one and use the same.

Why is Bowers the only one able to make passes in AX? He's just that much better than the rest and makes shit happen. Everyone is so close in the top 8 in SX but we've been through 8 rounds and there's a pattern in the results... so tracks aren't an issue. It's just the reality of a stacked field. I bet if Millsaps wasn't up front everything would appear 'normal' to everyone.

Remember when Dungey passed 10 guys in 3 laps in the LCQ and then he couldn't pass Albertson? It was totally because of the track. I guess it changed during the race and the passing options disappeared. C'mon people..face reality
4stroke4DWIN
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2/24/2013 12:54pm
jeffro503 wrote:
The start is a huge factor. BUT......it always has been......just not as important as it is now days. It all goes hand in hand with these...
The start is a huge factor.

BUT......it always has been......just not as important as it is now days. It all goes hand in hand with these tracks. There is nothing out there that is really separating the men from the boys.......lap times from 1st -10th......is usually split by about 1 second. What?.......it used to be separated by a good 4-6sec a lap.

Easy-fast tracks that seem to be one lined and hard to pass on unless you really force it.....like Arenacross. ( except AX is slower )

Where the hell are these big technical tracks with timing sections that have 5 different ways to go through them? There is nothing out there to separate these guys.

I know this is an exaggeration.......but if a beginner drag races a pro down a logging road.......the beginner has a good chance at winning. They make the tracks this easy (bland).......and everyone goes the same speed.......everyone does all the obstacles the same way.

Where the hell are the bigger "thinking man's" type tracks?

Want safer tracks?........put more obstacles in.......to slow them down a bit. Get some shit out there that separates the men from the boys and gets them "thinking" a little!

I enjoyed watching the race last night......just like all of them. But honestly.......I felt like I was watching paint dry.
I'm with ya on this Jeffro, anyone remember tracks of the late 80's early 90's? They separated the men from the boys. Dunno but it's follow the leader and you can throw creative lines right out the window. It's been a hot minute since we have had anything close.
2/24/2013 1:01pm
i agree with you guys, the tracks have become boring + fast ................and the 4-strokes haven't helped

i've been recording my old archive and the tracks even late 90's early Y2K were much more technical and had elements to seperate the top from mid pack guys..
BigDaddyG
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2/24/2013 1:12pm
A lot of really good points made here.....

The biggest thing that has stood out to me this year is every dude on the podium saying how hard packed and slick the track is, every track!!! To me that is a very big issue....they are creating this freeway with bowl turns and jumps. No traction, no line options and a big game of follow the leader for a few minutes. I am a big fan of slowing the race down (Giving us more bang for the buck) and changing up the dirt. I am not talking about the sand sections they throw here and there, but acutally making some traction out there. Seriously, it is like a damn free way with jumps!

Amend the soil to keep it fluffy, create lines and get back to the roots a bit.....oh wait, that would mean roost and Monster logos getting covered up....can't have that!

The Outdoors is real moto, that is where the boys are seperated from the men and there is actual soil, lines, and racing. SX has lost the core roots from when it was created.
151
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2/24/2013 1:26pm
motofab36 wrote:
I'm split on this one. I didnt care for the track layout this week or last week, however, its hard to bitch about lap times being...
I'm split on this one. I didnt care for the track layout this week or last week, however, its hard to bitch about lap times being so close witch means the racing is closer. It gets pretty boring when the top couple guys break away each week.
Thats what I was thinking. How does "separating the riders" create good racing? It seems that keeping the riders together would be the way to go if what we want is better racing.

Its a pretty simple concept, if we want better racing, tracks need fewer jumps into turns, fewer big jumps out of turns, more turns period, and remove the whoops all together. Get rid of the "sand section" too.
rallendude
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2/24/2013 1:35pm
Sorry, I didn't read all the way down. If someone said this, forgive me.

How many of you guys were there? That track was not boring in person. Maybe it was on TV but if you'd been there and watched the Lites A,B,C divisions you could see just how difficult the track was and how many lines were available. The line down the sideline that started with the dragon's back had at least three combinations. In fact, RV and Bubba ran two separate combos all night. It didn't look like one was much faster than the other, it just took more commitment. The six pack after going backwards down the start straight also had three different lines that were all used in qualifying. Then there was the sand section. I've always thought they were lame but yesterday I've never seen so many people fall or stall in one area of a track.

The big difference looked to me to be that all the heavy hitters are here and all riding well. The little advantages James had were whoop speed and making time through the corners. That's racing to me. All the top guys are going to catch on to the best combos every week. How fast they go through them depends on the rider's commitment. Last night, they happened to start in the same order of speed and pretty much rode single file all night. Sorry the TV show was boring but the event was really good in person. For me at least.
PRM31
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2/24/2013 1:52pm
Agree wholeheartedly! Many of the sections are ridden the same by nearly all riders and there is no way to stand out. The sand section was great to watch last night and I think more challenging obstacles like that allows for more passing.
68
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2/24/2013 1:57pm
the 450 main was a snoozer, nothing separates these guys its sucks
everyone does the same thing on these bikes, no one makes hard passes
Crush
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2/24/2013 2:06pm
The start is huge... Always has been...

But really, the bikes are so damn fast, the riders can jump everything, they mellow the tracks out and we get more follow the leader racing where it's F1, down to tenths, and no mistakes...

4 strokes man... Label me a crazy person, they're a superior bike, no question, but the racing isn't as fun to watch
Ing
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2/24/2013 2:09pm
It's ALL about the start.
mxjef
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2/24/2013 2:15pm
Crush wrote:
The start is huge... Always has been... But really, the bikes are so damn fast, the riders can jump everything, they mellow the tracks out and...
The start is huge... Always has been...

But really, the bikes are so damn fast, the riders can jump everything, they mellow the tracks out and we get more follow the leader racing where it's F1, down to tenths, and no mistakes...

4 strokes man... Label me a crazy person, they're a superior bike, no question, but the racing isn't as fun to watch
4 strokes man... Label me a crazy person, they're a superior bike, no question, but the racing isn't as fun to watch

I think this is the problem right here!
The 450's can jump anything with a twist of the throttle and all that horse power would tear up a track real quick if it wasn't for them prepping the track like concrete.

I guess we're stuck with it now though, glad I was there to see the good days of SX.
Crush
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2/24/2013 2:20pm
mxjef wrote:
[b]4 strokes man... Label me a crazy person, they're a superior bike, no question, but the racing isn't as fun to watch[/b] I think this is...
4 strokes man... Label me a crazy person, they're a superior bike, no question, but the racing isn't as fun to watch

I think this is the problem right here!
The 450's can jump anything with a twist of the throttle and all that horse power would tear up a track real quick if it wasn't for them prepping the track like concrete.

I guess we're stuck with it now though, glad I was there to see the good days of SX.
Yarp... Like I said, they're better, faster etc, and i'll be labelled a 2 stroke asshat, but for me, the riders are already so good, the top guys are just freight training, and no one makes a mistake and if they do, they're doing mach 10 and it's lights out...

Once upon a time, F1 took slicks away... Maybe we're getting there... Maybe the bikes need to come back
LappedU
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2/24/2013 2:28pm
If they would stop grooming the track like these guys are pee wee riders, it would separate the better riders, look how gnarly the 80's and 80's tracks were!
early
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2/24/2013 2:29pm
I thought the track was interesting last night, or at least different. Some different lines but definitely hard to make up time. Not trying to hate on stewart he rode great all night and showed the speed you have to like the guy for but it looked to me like villapoto wasnt trying to push for the lead. He wanted to collect the 2nd place points, hope millsaps made a mistake and not make a mistake himself trying to catch first. Thats why we didnt see a pass for the lead last night. Stewart was doing everything right and pushing to catch him would have been more likely to end in a crash than a pass.

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