Them underpowered KTM's 350s...

SlowMoFo
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SlowMoFo
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 2:38pm
Well, they did pretty well in one of the most demanding courses in the circuit this weekend in Limburg!
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Tiki
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Tiki 7/31/2011 3:17pm
7/31/2011 3:17pm
Weak Americans or boosted Euro bikes?
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 7/31/2011 3:51pm
7/31/2011 3:51pm
Because KTM are trying to sell 350s. If word got out that they were running something bigger than 350cc, well, that wouldnt look too good would it
croom mx
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croom mx 7/31/2011 4:01pm
7/31/2011 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 4:02pm
Imagine a CR500 2 stroke on the start. Big roosts and holeshots.
Alex
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Alex 7/31/2011 4:02pm
7/31/2011 4:02pm
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his 250. KTM clearly must have sneaked a 450 engine into that frame coz you cant beat a 450 on a 350 let alone a 250 sureley?

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pilotdude
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pilotdude 7/31/2011 4:04pm
7/31/2011 4:04pm
Villopoto never beat a whole gaggle of 450s in 2006, 2007, or 2008. It never happened. It could not have happened since he was on a 250f. Simply impossible.
croom mx
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croom mx 7/31/2011 4:05pm
7/31/2011 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 4:10pm
Alex wrote:
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his...
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his 250. KTM clearly must have sneaked a 450 engine into that frame coz you cant beat a 450 on a 350 let alone a 250 sureley?
The Russian is good what do you know about him? Bobryshev that is? Please (Tell Comrade Alex.)
Mstock
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Mstock 7/31/2011 4:10pm
7/31/2011 4:10pm
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been said before. It's not the bike. It's the rider. Holeshots are not an accident or luck. It's talent and determination. Factory KTM has employed the best riders and they are winning everything. They can do the same thing in the US anytime they want. They just need to employ title contenders and get rid of 5th-10th riders in the US. Nothing wrong if they only run with Roczen 250 and Dungey 450 for 2012. Sorry but Alessi, Short, and Mesquin (sp?) are nice people but not title contenders in the US.
croom mx
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croom mx 7/31/2011 4:16pm
7/31/2011 4:16pm
Mstock wrote:
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been...
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been said before. It's not the bike. It's the rider. Holeshots are not an accident or luck. It's talent and determination. Factory KTM has employed the best riders and they are winning everything. They can do the same thing in the US anytime they want. They just need to employ title contenders and get rid of 5th-10th riders in the US. Nothing wrong if they only run with Roczen 250 and Dungey 450 for 2012. Sorry but Alessi, Short, and Mesquin (sp?) are nice people but not title contenders in the US.
The fastest riders in the world are Reed and Dungey , Roczen rides 250 class for rookies.
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fader418 7/31/2011 4:24pm
7/31/2011 4:24pm
SlowMoFo wrote:
Well, they did pretty well in one of the most demanding courses in the circuit this weekend in Limburg!
yeah thats a 350......thats funny
Sherwood
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Sherwood 7/31/2011 4:45pm
7/31/2011 4:45pm
SlowMoFo wrote:
Well, they did pretty well in one of the most demanding courses in the circuit this weekend in Limburg!
On a second rate series they do just fine. Put them in the bigger shows and well...
Zycki11
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Zycki11 7/31/2011 4:52pm
7/31/2011 4:52pm
Mstock wrote:
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been...
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been said before. It's not the bike. It's the rider. Holeshots are not an accident or luck. It's talent and determination. Factory KTM has employed the best riders and they are winning everything. They can do the same thing in the US anytime they want. They just need to employ title contenders and get rid of 5th-10th riders in the US. Nothing wrong if they only run with Roczen 250 and Dungey 450 for 2012. Sorry but Alessi, Short, and Mesquin (sp?) are nice people but not title contenders in the US.
Who's to say that MM can't be a title contender? People with there egos and know it all attitudes. Good grief bro
Mstock
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Mstock 7/31/2011 5:17pm
7/31/2011 5:17pm
SlowMoFo wrote:
Well, they did pretty well in one of the most demanding courses in the circuit this weekend in Limburg!
Sherwood wrote:
On a second rate series they do just fine. Put them in the bigger shows and well...
Bigger show? Check out the us national mechanics area compared to the GP's. A couple of ex-ups vs a structure with lcd's for each team. Check out the GP Monster hospitality vs the us rockstar.......well nothing. Live and instant replay of every event for anyone with internet. A series that requires more than 1 rear tire selection. (All the same soil/prep). Southwick is hardpack compared to Lommel and Matthes will agree. 35 minutes plus 2 laps vs 30 +2. Wider tracks. Less cheesy banners and more pro looking billboards. Red Bull hospitality vs....well nothing again. A actual cooled area to sit and enjoy a real meal at the track vs. a caveman turkey drumstick with a napkin in the sun and heat. GP riders can speak and have a vocabulary vs us guys who sound like they have a hard time remembering who bought their last truck and the shoes on their feet. There is still a Factory Yamaha on the GP circuit and not on the us national circuit for a reason. Works bikes. Reason to buy a pit pass. But don't get me started.
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moto282 7/31/2011 5:47pm
7/31/2011 5:47pm
Mstock wrote:
Bigger show? Check out the us national mechanics area compared to the GP's. A couple of ex-ups vs a structure with lcd's for each team. Check...
Bigger show? Check out the us national mechanics area compared to the GP's. A couple of ex-ups vs a structure with lcd's for each team. Check out the GP Monster hospitality vs the us rockstar.......well nothing. Live and instant replay of every event for anyone with internet. A series that requires more than 1 rear tire selection. (All the same soil/prep). Southwick is hardpack compared to Lommel and Matthes will agree. 35 minutes plus 2 laps vs 30 +2. Wider tracks. Less cheesy banners and more pro looking billboards. Red Bull hospitality vs....well nothing again. A actual cooled area to sit and enjoy a real meal at the track vs. a caveman turkey drumstick with a napkin in the sun and heat. GP riders can speak and have a vocabulary vs us guys who sound like they have a hard time remembering who bought their last truck and the shoes on their feet. There is still a Factory Yamaha on the GP circuit and not on the us national circuit for a reason. Works bikes. Reason to buy a pit pass. But don't get me started.
Still holding a grudge against the nationals cause you don't have Fuel TV? Whistling

Btw... you're crazy if you really think Musquin isn't a contender for 250 SX and MX titles next year.
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Alex 7/31/2011 5:47pm
7/31/2011 5:47pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 5:54pm
Alex wrote:
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his...
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his 250. KTM clearly must have sneaked a 450 engine into that frame coz you cant beat a 450 on a 350 let alone a 250 sureley?
croom mx wrote:
The Russian is good what do you know about him? Bobryshev that is? Please (Tell Comrade Alex.)
He's got an interesting story. You still don't hear much information about what goes on behind the old iron curtain but I understand he was a Russian 85cc champion before switching to road racing where he also became Russian champion. He switched back to motocross in 2005 and in 2007 he rode a great race at the European version of the MXoN. He beat a bunch of factory riders and got signed by the Dutch GP team Van Beers. He raced a couple of years in MX2 before getting signed by CAS Honda to ride MX1 last year. Funny thing is when he was still MX2 the rumor was he could effectively be signed to any half decent team for no money thanks to his personal sponsors from Russia that would fund it. I heard of one team that declined the chance to sign him on a 2 year deal as his results in MX2 were not so great. Well it turns out he's much more suited to a big bike and within 2 seasons he's already won the German Grand Prix. You'd need many hundreds of thousands of Euros to sign him these days and I've no doubt that particular team manager's kicking himself for passing up the chance to sign Bobby at the end of 09.

I think a lot of people think hes old school and stiff but I kind of get a kick out of watching riders like him. Rather than flowing with the bike and being loose he totally bosses the bike. Kinda like Philipaerts and Everts he grips it real tight and uses a lot of strength. He must be incredibly fit.

sharkey
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sharkey 7/31/2011 6:07pm
7/31/2011 6:07pm
Mstock wrote:
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been...
KTM owns the GP's. In the deepest track of the year they pulled 1st and 2nd in all 4 motos off the start. It has been said before. It's not the bike. It's the rider. Holeshots are not an accident or luck. It's talent and determination. Factory KTM has employed the best riders and they are winning everything. They can do the same thing in the US anytime they want. They just need to employ title contenders and get rid of 5th-10th riders in the US. Nothing wrong if they only run with Roczen 250 and Dungey 450 for 2012. Sorry but Alessi, Short, and Mesquin (sp?) are nice people but not title contenders in the US.
i think its a little early to write marvin off yet. how about give the kid sometime to heal up and some ride time. he was the world champ last year
chrisbuehler
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chrisbuehler 7/31/2011 6:08pm
7/31/2011 6:08pm
Alex wrote:
He's got an interesting story. You still don't hear much information about what goes on behind the old iron curtain but I understand he was a...
He's got an interesting story. You still don't hear much information about what goes on behind the old iron curtain but I understand he was a Russian 85cc champion before switching to road racing where he also became Russian champion. He switched back to motocross in 2005 and in 2007 he rode a great race at the European version of the MXoN. He beat a bunch of factory riders and got signed by the Dutch GP team Van Beers. He raced a couple of years in MX2 before getting signed by CAS Honda to ride MX1 last year. Funny thing is when he was still MX2 the rumor was he could effectively be signed to any half decent team for no money thanks to his personal sponsors from Russia that would fund it. I heard of one team that declined the chance to sign him on a 2 year deal as his results in MX2 were not so great. Well it turns out he's much more suited to a big bike and within 2 seasons he's already won the German Grand Prix. You'd need many hundreds of thousands of Euros to sign him these days and I've no doubt that particular team manager's kicking himself for passing up the chance to sign Bobby at the end of 09.

I think a lot of people think hes old school and stiff but I kind of get a kick out of watching riders like him. Rather than flowing with the bike and being loose he totally bosses the bike. Kinda like Philipaerts and Everts he grips it real tight and uses a lot of strength. He must be incredibly fit.

New RacerX has a story on him
500guy
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500guy 7/31/2011 6:08pm
7/31/2011 6:08pm
I always ask for a bike with the same weight and less power.
SlowMoFo
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SlowMoFo 7/31/2011 6:19pm
7/31/2011 6:19pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 6:19pm
500guy wrote:
I always ask for a bike with the same weight and less power.
For "Blazing "Fast people like you, they make bigger bikes, not to worry RoadRunner!

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Faceaz
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Faceaz 7/31/2011 6:28pm
7/31/2011 6:28pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 6:29pm
The 350 is not down on power, maybe a little on torque - nothing that can't be overcome with the right rider.

Anybody willing to take a little time & do the math (% of greater gear reduction x peak hp), will find the same. The peak rpm of the 350 is much greater than the 450's, that translates to gear reduction to get the same final drive. Like adding a few teeth to the rear sprocket. KTM just needs a top lites rider because they're used to revving a bike - like the 350 needs to be ridden.
500guy
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500guy 7/31/2011 7:24pm
7/31/2011 7:24pm
Given the same or close to equal ability a rider with less power / torque will not beat a rider with more of the same.

I think Dungey proved that at the MXoN in Colorado.

Trying to compare my riding ability to anything is plain stupid, a 125 would work fine for what I do.
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`ol Ger 7/31/2011 7:42pm
7/31/2011 7:42pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 7:42pm
Alex wrote:
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his...
Funny that because I could swear Rokzen caught and passed Bobryshev (winner of the German MX1 GP) at the recent ADAC German masters whilst riding his 250. KTM clearly must have sneaked a 450 engine into that frame coz you cant beat a 450 on a 350 let alone a 250 sureley?
Wink

It's gotta be an 875 !!!
GOSH
Alex
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Alex 7/31/2011 7:49pm
7/31/2011 7:49pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 7:50pm
Every time they took to the track in Italy 2 years ago Cairoli was consistently faster than Chad and Dungey. His bike had been sleeved down to 400cc. Is he that much more talented than those two riders or does he just prefer ringing out a bike with slightly smaller engine ?

At the end of race 1 today Herlings on a 250 did a 2.11 lap and Cairoli could only manage a 2.15 at the start of the next race. There was no racing on the track between their races to make the track rougher
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wreckitrandy 7/31/2011 8:00pm
7/31/2011 8:00pm
500guy wrote:
I always ask for a bike with the same weight and less power.
'The last thing you need when you're out of shape is more power.' Roger DeCoster many years ago. Of course, he was obviously directing that comment towards me and not the stallions that would eventually find their way to the internet.
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TDeath21 7/31/2011 8:06pm
7/31/2011 8:06pm
It's more rider than it is bike, BUT when exactly equal riders compete against each other the higher powered bike will win. Villopoto waxed the field and several 450's at Budds 07 on a 250. This doesn't mean the 250 has more power at all. It just means Villopoto was good enough that day to even overcome a 200cc deficit. Cairoli is good enough to overcome a 100cc deficit on any given day against his GP competitors. Look at the Des Nations last year. In moto 2, Roczen was the best rider on the track, but he couldn't overcome the 200cc's he was giving up to Townley.
aFACEdismembered 7/31/2011 10:06pm
7/31/2011 10:06pm Edited Date/Time 7/31/2011 10:09pm
Alex wrote:
Every time they took to the track in Italy 2 years ago Cairoli was consistently faster than Chad and Dungey. His bike had been sleeved down...
Every time they took to the track in Italy 2 years ago Cairoli was consistently faster than Chad and Dungey. His bike had been sleeved down to 400cc. Is he that much more talented than those two riders or does he just prefer ringing out a bike with slightly smaller engine ?

At the end of race 1 today Herlings on a 250 did a 2.11 lap and Cairoli could only manage a 2.15 at the start of the next race. There was no racing on the track between their races to make the track rougher
Herlings had 40 minutes to figure out all of the hot lines. Do the GP's have sighting laps?
DrSweden
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DrSweden 7/31/2011 10:17pm
7/31/2011 10:17pm
Cairoli has said repeatably that he don't like 450s. He felt better on his YZ250F than he did they year after moving up and mounted the 450. So they down tuned that bike to 400 cc, I actually think they rode a 450 down tuned rather than a 250 big bore. When he went over to KTM they made the 350 for him. I don't know if it was just an accident that they happened to build that bike and signed a rider that wanted less cc?

But seems some riders on a top level (at least a rider) prefers less CC than others. Not that it makes sense for all, but obviously for some.

End of story? Or should we do another 200 threads about this saying the same thing over and over?
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scott_nz 8/1/2011 2:10am
8/1/2011 2:10am
i think the first post that says the deep sand start of lommel is a bit off, it was packed down after each start with a loader so was about the only semi hard spot on the track,

in saying that, they seem to have more horspower in the 350 than short has this year, and alessi had last year, and there factory 250F's are easily the fastest out of the hole as well, somewhere in the race team in austria they know how to make serious power, they need to send those guys out to the states to devlep the motors,
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jamma10 8/1/2011 2:24am
8/1/2011 2:24am
Alex wrote:
Every time they took to the track in Italy 2 years ago Cairoli was consistently faster than Chad and Dungey. His bike had been sleeved down...
Every time they took to the track in Italy 2 years ago Cairoli was consistently faster than Chad and Dungey. His bike had been sleeved down to 400cc. Is he that much more talented than those two riders or does he just prefer ringing out a bike with slightly smaller engine ?

At the end of race 1 today Herlings on a 250 did a 2.11 lap and Cairoli could only manage a 2.15 at the start of the next race. There was no racing on the track between their races to make the track rougher
aFACEdismembered wrote:
Herlings had 40 minutes to figure out all of the hot lines. Do the GP's have sighting laps?
Yes they do, and its bound to take Cairoli a couple of laps to get into any sort of rhythm on a track like that. But its still pretty amazing a 250 can run anywhere near the 450 lap times, let alone consistently beat them at Lommel if displacement really is the be all and end all.
Motocross83 8/1/2011 2:58am
8/1/2011 2:58am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2011 2:59am
I think Lommel (and many of the GP circuits in general) favour the 350. Admittedly I haven't ridden there myself, but I can see that after 20 - 25 mins of flat out riding - a lighter, better handling bike would become an advantage. But even before that point it's certainly not a disadvantage.

Riding sand "well" requires good line selection and momentum, all of which favour the more agile 350. Actually burying the bike into big power sapping berms and pinning the throttle, causing the suspension to bottom out etc... is the wrong way to ride sand. It's inefficient and tiring. Even Paul Malin himself has said the same many times this weekend. Bizarrely, just as with the complete opposite conditions at the other end of the scale (i.e hard pack blue grove) you have to be concious to not override deep sand.

I think this is the same reason Mike Alessi had a brief resurgence back to form at Southwick last year. The 350 is a good bike on the more technical tracks, rather than those that favour straight line speed and hp. The last piece of the puzzle (and the most important piece) is the rider.
ayearinmx
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ayearinmx 8/1/2011 3:03am
8/1/2011 3:03am
Motocross83 wrote:
I think Lommel (and many of the GP circuits in general) favour the 350. Admittedly I haven't ridden there myself, but I can see that after...
I think Lommel (and many of the GP circuits in general) favour the 350. Admittedly I haven't ridden there myself, but I can see that after 20 - 25 mins of flat out riding - a lighter, better handling bike would become an advantage. But even before that point it's certainly not a disadvantage.

Riding sand "well" requires good line selection and momentum, all of which favour the more agile 350. Actually burying the bike into big power sapping berms and pinning the throttle, causing the suspension to bottom out etc... is the wrong way to ride sand. It's inefficient and tiring. Even Paul Malin himself has said the same many times this weekend. Bizarrely, just as with the complete opposite conditions at the other end of the scale (i.e hard pack blue grove) you have to be concious to not override deep sand.

I think this is the same reason Mike Alessi had a brief resurgence back to form at Southwick last year. The 350 is a good bike on the more technical tracks, rather than those that favour straight line speed and hp. The last piece of the puzzle (and the most important piece) is the rider.
bottoming out 450s is the wrong way to ride sand...... piffle..... just ask Big Ken lol

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