The next chapter in moto progression?

Johnny Depp
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11/12/2019 6:24pm
Stick a fork in them.
Premix wrote:
On the contrary. F1 is the pinnacle of all motorsports right now. They aren’t going anywhere. Hamilton’s two year contract last year was around 100 million...
On the contrary. F1 is the pinnacle of all motorsports right now. They aren’t going anywhere. Hamilton’s two year contract last year was around 100 million. This isn’t the Mickey Mouse sport that moto is.

I think you’ll see them go to a synthetic manufactured fuel source and possibly electric once the weight is no longer an issue. The majority of the article (if you read it), is from the impact the transportation and setup of each event with the actual vehicles themselves having the least impact. The evolution of F1 over the last decade has been incredible in the way that the series markets and brings in new fans and has evolved with the times. Something moto has failed miserably at.


No F**ks given here about a carbon footprint. Good for them if they find a new market of snowflakes, not me.
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8
11/12/2019 6:55pm
mark_swart wrote:
This is a really fun topic. For starters, I feel like I could make a pretty compelling argument that motocross bike design took it's current shape...
This is a really fun topic. For starters, I feel like I could make a pretty compelling argument that motocross bike design took it's current shape around 1990. And if you dig up some video of Ron Lechien in that same era, other than scrubbing, he looks very very similar to what we see now.

I don't know if I'd say things have plateaued, but the curve has definitely been much less steep since then as far as change.

Along those lines, I believe we will only continue to see evolutionary changes in the future. Even with electric. At some point, the machines are so good that the human senses can't keep up. We are never going to see the same rapid development in riding or machinery that we did between say 78 and 88.

If I were guessing, I'd say that at A1 2040 we will see 190 lb electric bikes. The e-bikes will also bring more parity to the sport, there will be a development class with less horsepower and a premier class with more. This horsepower will be electronically capped and monitored realtime by the sanctioning organization. Maybe there's even a "restrictor chip" that they provide. Electric really opens the door for spec engines, which would should reduce cost for professional teams. Chassis setup, suspension and power mapping will be the big three mods. And tweaking power delivery on a tuner app should be a lot easier and cheaper than building a 250 race motor. It will remove / reduce one of our biggest current barriers.

Ideally, they would keep horsepower numbers (or watts or however they use it) in check. I feel like 45 for the development class and 60 for premier are good ballpark numbers indoors? Maybe bump those number up for outdoors.

Will ebikes be as sexy? Probably not, at least not to us old guys. But I think it also opens the door for survival and quite possibly growth in our sport, so that's hard to argue against.

It's going to be interesting to watch. I actually have a lot of hope for the e-revolution and our sport long-term. I'm just dreading the implementation years.
Very cool thoughts... so I started in 94 watching and I was all about LaRocco. As I became more educated about the sport, I kept reading Davey Coombs articles of his admiration of JMB. So I started going back further and watching old races to see what he was talking about and... I think Lechein was the beginning.. but Bayle was amazing in the whooops. His technique and fluent style.. I can’t remember the race in 92, but he went down the whoops and back and went from 5th to 1st, and left Stanton.
McGrath took it to the next level, then Stewart.

I’ve now watched old Lechein races and he is kick ass.

So, has Guy Cooper ever had a replacement yet? He had a niche and I haven’t seen someone come along and do stupid shit like he did, I couldn’t take my eyes off him

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Dropbear
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11/13/2019 12:52am
CPR wrote:
Moto progression plateaued in the late 80s and has been ever since really.
Tarz483 wrote:
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM. But four strokes Seem like the...
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM.
But four strokes Seem like the Plateaud a bit around 2012-2014 but now are advancing again with tech like the Yamaha tuner app, personally I don't think it needs to advance , I think it needs to work more on affordability.
Just my opinion.
I just know in the late seventies and eighties you could not show up on even last years bike and have a hope in hell. Not like that now, old bikes (5 years or so) in good nick can still win local races.
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CPR
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11/13/2019 1:14am
CPR wrote:
Moto progression plateaued in the late 80s and has been ever since really.
Tarz483 wrote:
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM. But four strokes Seem like the...
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM.
But four strokes Seem like the Plateaud a bit around 2012-2014 but now are advancing again with tech like the Yamaha tuner app, personally I don't think it needs to advance , I think it needs to work more on affordability.
Just my opinion.
Dropbear wrote:
I just know in the late seventies and eighties you could not show up on even last years bike and have a hope in hell. Not...
I just know in the late seventies and eighties you could not show up on even last years bike and have a hope in hell. Not like that now, old bikes (5 years or so) in good nick can still win local races.
Thanks drop bear, at least one person got what I was trying to say.
5

The Shop

Dropbear
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11/13/2019 3:09am
Tarz483 wrote:
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM. But four strokes Seem like the...
I Don't think it Plateaued in the Late 80's even two strokes got better right up until now with KTM.
But four strokes Seem like the Plateaud a bit around 2012-2014 but now are advancing again with tech like the Yamaha tuner app, personally I don't think it needs to advance , I think it needs to work more on affordability.
Just my opinion.
Dropbear wrote:
I just know in the late seventies and eighties you could not show up on even last years bike and have a hope in hell. Not...
I just know in the late seventies and eighties you could not show up on even last years bike and have a hope in hell. Not like that now, old bikes (5 years or so) in good nick can still win local races.
CPR wrote:
Thanks drop bear, at least one person got what I was trying to say.
You could tell the different year models from 50 metres away. That’s how fast the developments were. I, for one, can’t do that now and I’m still involved in the sport.
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Brtp4
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11/13/2019 7:54am
CPR wrote:
Thanks drop bear, at least one person got what I was trying to say.
More than one. You are correct, improvements and advancements are two different things.

But, they are coming.

BP



2
11/13/2019 8:21am
Electric will be the next mainstream innovation in motocross. I don't think it will totally replace ICE options in the near term, but i'd be willing to bet within 10 years a majority of the MX manufacturers will be offering a full sized motocross bike. Heck, if Alta Motors stayed in business, the big 5 might have been forced to speed up their development.
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11/13/2019 8:39am Edited Date/Time 11/13/2019 8:40am
Electric will be the next mainstream innovation in motocross. I don't think it will totally replace ICE options in the near term, but i'd be willing...
Electric will be the next mainstream innovation in motocross. I don't think it will totally replace ICE options in the near term, but i'd be willing to bet within 10 years a majority of the MX manufacturers will be offering a full sized motocross bike. Heck, if Alta Motors stayed in business, the big 5 might have been forced to speed up their development.
I rode an Alta, what development? The bike lasts 5 laps on a sand track, and the battery either overheats and fails, or Alta needs to show up and replace it (3 times)
Who wants to sit and run a generator and wait 6 hours to charge it back up?
Let’s not even mention cost... or weight...
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Tarz483
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11/13/2019 9:08am
I have never seen an Alta in person but it seems like all I've read is good things, is this a common opinion?
Are the batteries starting to go bad ?
I thought they lasted like 30 minutes which is longer than the average guy can ride hard. Eli yes , average guy no
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1
Park Boys
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11/13/2019 10:28am
Like it or not electric is the future. The worlds fastest production car ever is electric Here is the Tesla Roadster specs 0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds...
Like it or not electric is the future.
The worlds fastest production car ever is electric
Here is the Tesla Roadster specs
0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds!!
Weight: 1300kg
Battery range: 1000km

Motocross bikes 20 years from now will be VERY different
You realize the new Tesla Roadster is not in production yet. Anyone can make claims, he also said it will go over 250 miles an hour and run 8 second quarter miles. I’ll believe it when I see it. And I want the company to succeed.
11/13/2019 10:39am
My city, Duluth, was selected for electric buses to be tested. Dismal failure... batteries don’t last more than an hour in the cold weather, they had to pull them and install diesel generators to run heaters in the buses 😂

I’ve got a few buddies with Tesla’s here, in the cold the battery life is cut in less than half.

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/4542279-dta-temporarily-pulls-el…
philG
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GB
11/13/2019 11:20am
Electric will be the next mainstream innovation in motocross. I don't think it will totally replace ICE options in the near term, but i'd be willing...
Electric will be the next mainstream innovation in motocross. I don't think it will totally replace ICE options in the near term, but i'd be willing to bet within 10 years a majority of the MX manufacturers will be offering a full sized motocross bike. Heck, if Alta Motors stayed in business, the big 5 might have been forced to speed up their development.
The fact they built what appeared to be a great bike, and they are gone, tells you everything .

On the flip side people will pay shit loads for E-Bikes and not give a shit .
2
11/13/2019 6:16pm
Like it or not electric is the future. The worlds fastest production car ever is electric Here is the Tesla Roadster specs 0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds...
Like it or not electric is the future.
The worlds fastest production car ever is electric
Here is the Tesla Roadster specs
0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds!!
Weight: 1300kg
Battery range: 1000km

Motocross bikes 20 years from now will be VERY different
Park Boys wrote:
You realize the new Tesla Roadster is not in production yet. Anyone can make claims, he also said it will go over 250 miles an hour...
You realize the new Tesla Roadster is not in production yet. Anyone can make claims, he also said it will go over 250 miles an hour and run 8 second quarter miles. I’ll believe it when I see it. And I want the company to succeed.
The car is available for pre-order at the moment.
They have been built and driven, they aren’t just making up numbers..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HRft4BCiDpE
3
Dropbear
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11/13/2019 9:43pm
Like it or not electric is the future. The worlds fastest production car ever is electric Here is the Tesla Roadster specs 0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds...
Like it or not electric is the future.
The worlds fastest production car ever is electric
Here is the Tesla Roadster specs
0-100 (0-60) 1.9 seconds!!
Weight: 1300kg
Battery range: 1000km

Motocross bikes 20 years from now will be VERY different
Park Boys wrote:
You realize the new Tesla Roadster is not in production yet. Anyone can make claims, he also said it will go over 250 miles an hour...
You realize the new Tesla Roadster is not in production yet. Anyone can make claims, he also said it will go over 250 miles an hour and run 8 second quarter miles. I’ll believe it when I see it. And I want the company to succeed.
The car is available for pre-order at the moment.
They have been built and driven, they aren’t just making up numbers..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HRft4BCiDpE
Geeks are going to love ‘em. That’s not a bad thing.
11/15/2019 11:15pm Edited Date/Time 11/15/2019 11:18pm
Tarz483 wrote:
I have never seen an Alta in person but it seems like all I've read is good things, is this a common opinion? Are the batteries...
I have never seen an Alta in person but it seems like all I've read is good things, is this a common opinion?
Are the batteries starting to go bad ?
I thought they lasted like 30 minutes which is longer than the average guy can ride hard. Eli yes , average guy no
I do 20-30 minute motos at Pala Raceway and Cahuilla Creek MX almost every weekend.

I just race 13-15 minute motos at vet world championships at glen helen and used just under 1/2 charge per moto.

I have notice no degredation in battery life or performance in the over year i've had my MXR. It still performs exactly like it did brand new after 90 hours. I rebuilt the suspension twice, changed 100mL of gear oil once, just put my 3rd chain on, probably 6th or 7th set of tires. That's about it.
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Dropbear
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11/16/2019 1:31am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2019 1:55am
I just hope Shimano don't make a motorcycle E motor. Their emtb ones are good when working, but unreliable.

That's the problem with E motors at the moment, when error messages come up its a fucking mystery what's wrong. Even Shimano wont tell you the problem even after its fixed on warranty, I know, I've got one. The net has forums full of riders with inexplicable problems with most brands of motor.

An MX bike that did crap like that would drive me nuts.
11/16/2019 3:18am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2019 3:19am
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being quiet. Here’s the problem, the wheel is still round for a reason, it works. Ktm is the best bike, has a steel frame. The move from two strokes killed the sport because of cost, it HASNT recovered. Battery technology just can’t do what we need it to.. the entire premise of this product isn’t viable. Similar to Google giving up on renewable energy and saying “this just isn’t going to work”. I have a pretty good education on batteries, they are a problem.

I wished we would just put mufflers on 450s. The planet won’t run out of gasoline.. and advances in the internal combustion engine have made them so clean, manufactures should go up that path. I didn’t mean to sound negative, it just makes more sense and it’s a lot cheaper. I love motocross, I just want to see the sport thrive.
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11/16/2019 3:21am
Chevy quit making electric cars. Tesla is basically bankrupt. Harley stopped production on electric bikes. Nearly Every solar company on the planet has gone bankrupt. There comes a point....
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1
11/16/2019 3:25am
Tarz483 wrote:
I have never seen an Alta in person but it seems like all I've read is good things, is this a common opinion? Are the batteries...
I have never seen an Alta in person but it seems like all I've read is good things, is this a common opinion?
Are the batteries starting to go bad ?
I thought they lasted like 30 minutes which is longer than the average guy can ride hard. Eli yes , average guy no
I do 20-30 minute motos at Pala Raceway and Cahuilla Creek MX almost every weekend. I just race 13-15 minute motos at vet world championships at...
I do 20-30 minute motos at Pala Raceway and Cahuilla Creek MX almost every weekend.

I just race 13-15 minute motos at vet world championships at glen helen and used just under 1/2 charge per moto.

I have notice no degredation in battery life or performance in the over year i've had my MXR. It still performs exactly like it did brand new after 90 hours. I rebuilt the suspension twice, changed 100mL of gear oil once, just put my 3rd chain on, probably 6th or 7th set of tires. That's about it.
Are you on setting 2? We have a few sand tracks in Minnesota, an Alta can’t make it halfway into the day. We had reps show up here and replace the batteries several times. They error out when they overheat and you can’t ride the bike. I’ve read trail riding they last quite a while, not for an A rider that’s on it. We had 3 of them here.
I will say, they are DAMN fast on 4.... I felt the bike was nose heavy and weird but I’m sure you get used to it.
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VicDaMoan03
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11/16/2019 3:32am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2019 3:33am
What's the difference between an electric bicycle and an an electric motorcycle? After some refinements and a couple generations I think they will morph into the same thing... Which is exactly why I feel the combustion has a future and are not doomed.
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Zacka 161
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11/16/2019 3:47am
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being...
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being quiet. Here’s the problem, the wheel is still round for a reason, it works. Ktm is the best bike, has a steel frame. The move from two strokes killed the sport because of cost, it HASNT recovered. Battery technology just can’t do what we need it to.. the entire premise of this product isn’t viable. Similar to Google giving up on renewable energy and saying “this just isn’t going to work”. I have a pretty good education on batteries, they are a problem.

I wished we would just put mufflers on 450s. The planet won’t run out of gasoline.. and advances in the internal combustion engine have made them so clean, manufactures should go up that path. I didn’t mean to sound negative, it just makes more sense and it’s a lot cheaper. I love motocross, I just want to see the sport thrive.
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive...

Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper and not because they weren’t more efficient but because they didn’t think they would reduce the emissions fast enough to make as big of a difference as they would like. But they just invested $2 billion in renewables this year. So you are wrong.

And nobody has said the planet will run out of gasoline, that is nobodies fear so thanks for stating a redundant fact. Scientist don’t say ‘we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions because otherwise we will run out of oil’. Because the earth won’t run out of oil is precisely why big oil invests in politicians to go against science to support their cause, which is to make money, from oil, regardless of its impact. You do realise combustion in internal combustion means ‘burning’ right?

Look at the tech industry, the costs of new tech continues to drop. 20 years ago and 85 inch LED tv was probably half a million dollars now it’s closer to $500.... to do what a phone can do now 20 years ago would require multiple machines and tens of thousands of dollars now its under $1000. These are things that probably didn’t seem viable to luddites at the time but is now common place,. We used to have kerosene refrigeration which you just filled up and had a fridge. At the time running electrical lines throughout the country so you could plug in a fridge etc probably also seemed unnecessary and unviable. and big kerosene probably fought against its introduction, like big oil is now.

‘The entire premise of the product is unviable’ Please explain? I understand battery tech isn’t there, but that side of it has already been proven with Alta, and that was now 3-4 year old tech.... you can’t do the Dakar on a better bike but you also probably can’t do it on a cr125 either. Once batteries are interchangeable, and can be have for say 3k each, they become incredibly viable.








Zacka 161
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11/16/2019 4:00am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2019 4:01am
Chevy quit making electric cars. Tesla is basically bankrupt. Harley stopped production on electric bikes. Nearly Every solar company on the planet has gone bankrupt. There...
Chevy quit making electric cars. Tesla is basically bankrupt. Harley stopped production on electric bikes. Nearly Every solar company on the planet has gone bankrupt. There comes a point....
Hello there, you are continuing with basically lies... Chevy in America decided cut lots of vehicles from production and lots of jobs to focus on big trucks and suvs, the volt was one of them. But I have some interesting facts for you sir.

Do you know why owns CHEVY?

I’ll wait


No you are wrong it’s not Mr Chase, it’s actually a large conglomerate called GM. CRAZY!!! Well General Motors has a total of 20 new electric cars coming by 2023.... so while Chevy axed American jobs under a government paid for by the fossil fuel industry the rest of the company is developing and released incredible products.

So yeah, their comes a point where you need to look at the whole picture.... it’s crazy hey....
11/16/2019 4:10am
2023? Ok... I’ll hold my breath and wait. Did you read my post about my city receiving a multi million dollar grant to test electric buses? Turned out to be a disaster. If an electric car didn’t take 6 hours to charge, worked in the cold, wasn’t more expensive, didn’t cost 15,000$ to replace the battery pack every 5-10 years, I would be interested.
Electric charging stations across the country powered by the fossil fuel industry (the only thing that is reliable)... isn’t that interesting.
I could be wrong, maybe they will take off... so far, they haven’t. Remember, the planet is toast (no pun) in 12 years, so none of this matters. Long live Ocasio-Cortez.
11/16/2019 4:50am
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being...
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being quiet. Here’s the problem, the wheel is still round for a reason, it works. Ktm is the best bike, has a steel frame. The move from two strokes killed the sport because of cost, it HASNT recovered. Battery technology just can’t do what we need it to.. the entire premise of this product isn’t viable. Similar to Google giving up on renewable energy and saying “this just isn’t going to work”. I have a pretty good education on batteries, they are a problem.

I wished we would just put mufflers on 450s. The planet won’t run out of gasoline.. and advances in the internal combustion engine have made them so clean, manufactures should go up that path. I didn’t mean to sound negative, it just makes more sense and it’s a lot cheaper. I love motocross, I just want to see the sport thrive.
Zacka 161 wrote:
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive... Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper...
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive...

Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper and not because they weren’t more efficient but because they didn’t think they would reduce the emissions fast enough to make as big of a difference as they would like. But they just invested $2 billion in renewables this year. So you are wrong.

And nobody has said the planet will run out of gasoline, that is nobodies fear so thanks for stating a redundant fact. Scientist don’t say ‘we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions because otherwise we will run out of oil’. Because the earth won’t run out of oil is precisely why big oil invests in politicians to go against science to support their cause, which is to make money, from oil, regardless of its impact. You do realise combustion in internal combustion means ‘burning’ right?

Look at the tech industry, the costs of new tech continues to drop. 20 years ago and 85 inch LED tv was probably half a million dollars now it’s closer to $500.... to do what a phone can do now 20 years ago would require multiple machines and tens of thousands of dollars now its under $1000. These are things that probably didn’t seem viable to luddites at the time but is now common place,. We used to have kerosene refrigeration which you just filled up and had a fridge. At the time running electrical lines throughout the country so you could plug in a fridge etc probably also seemed unnecessary and unviable. and big kerosene probably fought against its introduction, like big oil is now.

‘The entire premise of the product is unviable’ Please explain? I understand battery tech isn’t there, but that side of it has already been proven with Alta, and that was now 3-4 year old tech.... you can’t do the Dakar on a better bike but you also probably can’t do it on a cr125 either. Once batteries are interchangeable, and can be have for say 3k each, they become incredibly viable.








Ktm is the most expensive because it has an electric start, hydraulic clutch, Brembo brakes, and a host of other higher quality units on it. They are expensive because the market determines price, people pay for it...
I’m sorry you think renewables can save the planet. Cell phones... can you say “monopoly”? Apple forces people to buy newer models by throttling cpu speed. Has nothing to do with the battery.. nobody should be paying 160$ a month for cell phone service. The market dictates it though..battery life of old phones still lasts 100x longer.

Even with all the technology in LCD, which is back lit by LEDs instead of tubes... the old 70’s CRT screen with fly back still produces the best picture, is faster, better contrast, and not affected by cold. I get what your trying to say... I really do, but I understand where it ends. Example, we have a big shop, I have a 30,000 watt stereo system.. powered by huge Crown amps. I can kick the breakers in our shop instantly.. along with compressors, hot water heaters.. vacuum pumps.. even if the entire property were littered with solar panels or wind mills, you couldn’t produce the power RMS we need real time.. yes, solar panels will power light bulbs at your deer shack.. or house when nobody is home, but people don’t seem to understand this because they don’t know much about electricity. The Grid was shut down in California and solar wont even work because it was too expensive and people don’t have battery systems in place, they are pushing back and forth real-time to the grid 😂
Like all else.. “renewable energy ain’t it”
I live in Duluth, the Solar farm our city is bragging about is currently covered in snow and not producing dick, they had to place them last year because they failed. It’s cost, on cost, on cost, and now Minnesota power wants to raise prices even with ridiculous subsidies. I’m over it
5
Zacka 161
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11/16/2019 5:15am
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being...
I do understand, I was in R&D half of my life. I appreciate the enthusiasm and I agree that electric has a unique benefit of being quiet. Here’s the problem, the wheel is still round for a reason, it works. Ktm is the best bike, has a steel frame. The move from two strokes killed the sport because of cost, it HASNT recovered. Battery technology just can’t do what we need it to.. the entire premise of this product isn’t viable. Similar to Google giving up on renewable energy and saying “this just isn’t going to work”. I have a pretty good education on batteries, they are a problem.

I wished we would just put mufflers on 450s. The planet won’t run out of gasoline.. and advances in the internal combustion engine have made them so clean, manufactures should go up that path. I didn’t mean to sound negative, it just makes more sense and it’s a lot cheaper. I love motocross, I just want to see the sport thrive.
Zacka 161 wrote:
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive... Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper...
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive...

Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper and not because they weren’t more efficient but because they didn’t think they would reduce the emissions fast enough to make as big of a difference as they would like. But they just invested $2 billion in renewables this year. So you are wrong.

And nobody has said the planet will run out of gasoline, that is nobodies fear so thanks for stating a redundant fact. Scientist don’t say ‘we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions because otherwise we will run out of oil’. Because the earth won’t run out of oil is precisely why big oil invests in politicians to go against science to support their cause, which is to make money, from oil, regardless of its impact. You do realise combustion in internal combustion means ‘burning’ right?

Look at the tech industry, the costs of new tech continues to drop. 20 years ago and 85 inch LED tv was probably half a million dollars now it’s closer to $500.... to do what a phone can do now 20 years ago would require multiple machines and tens of thousands of dollars now its under $1000. These are things that probably didn’t seem viable to luddites at the time but is now common place,. We used to have kerosene refrigeration which you just filled up and had a fridge. At the time running electrical lines throughout the country so you could plug in a fridge etc probably also seemed unnecessary and unviable. and big kerosene probably fought against its introduction, like big oil is now.

‘The entire premise of the product is unviable’ Please explain? I understand battery tech isn’t there, but that side of it has already been proven with Alta, and that was now 3-4 year old tech.... you can’t do the Dakar on a better bike but you also probably can’t do it on a cr125 either. Once batteries are interchangeable, and can be have for say 3k each, they become incredibly viable.








Ktm is the most expensive because it has an electric start, hydraulic clutch, Brembo brakes, and a host of other higher quality units on it. They...
Ktm is the most expensive because it has an electric start, hydraulic clutch, Brembo brakes, and a host of other higher quality units on it. They are expensive because the market determines price, people pay for it...
I’m sorry you think renewables can save the planet. Cell phones... can you say “monopoly”? Apple forces people to buy newer models by throttling cpu speed. Has nothing to do with the battery.. nobody should be paying 160$ a month for cell phone service. The market dictates it though..battery life of old phones still lasts 100x longer.

Even with all the technology in LCD, which is back lit by LEDs instead of tubes... the old 70’s CRT screen with fly back still produces the best picture, is faster, better contrast, and not affected by cold. I get what your trying to say... I really do, but I understand where it ends. Example, we have a big shop, I have a 30,000 watt stereo system.. powered by huge Crown amps. I can kick the breakers in our shop instantly.. along with compressors, hot water heaters.. vacuum pumps.. even if the entire property were littered with solar panels or wind mills, you couldn’t produce the power RMS we need real time.. yes, solar panels will power light bulbs at your deer shack.. or house when nobody is home, but people don’t seem to understand this because they don’t know much about electricity. The Grid was shut down in California and solar wont even work because it was too expensive and people don’t have battery systems in place, they are pushing back and forth real-time to the grid 😂
Like all else.. “renewable energy ain’t it”
I live in Duluth, the Solar farm our city is bragging about is currently covered in snow and not producing dick, they had to place them last year because they failed. It’s cost, on cost, on cost, and now Minnesota power wants to raise prices even with ridiculous subsidies. I’m over it
Yeah cool, in your particular example solar cells on the roof is not sustainable. Many other places it’s perfect.

Apple does not have a monopoly, they are not even the market leader anymore. Do some research. Yes phone batteries lasted much longer.... Wãs this due to the batteries being better or maybe just maybe the phones are doing just a little bit more now... maybe. I’m not sure though, maybe. Phone batteries are lasting far longer than laptops from 20 years ago and are smaller, lighter and can do far far far more.

70S crt TVs produce better pictures than current 85 in 4K OLEDS? Righto you have really jumped the shark here. Hilarious.

Please have a look at your arguments, then do some research, then you might not make so many unfounded statements.
11/16/2019 5:17am
Ok. I’ll take your word.. you drive a Tesla, and an Alta.
I’ll drive a Viper and KTM two stroke. We will both be happy.. this isn’t worth arguing because there is no argument. It comes down to cost... reliability... practicality.. not “I feel good about this” because the media and environmentalist have me convinced I’m wrecking the environment, which just isn’t true. We will agree to disagree 😊
Zacka 161
Posts
1074
Joined
7/30/2009
Location
Mount Waverley, VIC AU
Fantasy
2067th
11/16/2019 5:28am
Ok. I’ll take your word.. you drive a Tesla, and an Alta. I’ll drive a Viper and KTM two stroke. We will both be happy.. this...
Ok. I’ll take your word.. you drive a Tesla, and an Alta.
I’ll drive a Viper and KTM two stroke. We will both be happy.. this isn’t worth arguing because there is no argument. It comes down to cost... reliability... practicality.. not “I feel good about this” because the media and environmentalist have me convinced I’m wrecking the environment, which just isn’t true. We will agree to disagree 😊
Cost reliability and practicality is so quickly pushing in favour of electric it’s insane.

What I would say is whether you believe in science or believe in the narrative pushed by big oil what everyone should without a doubt believe in is air quality. With more and more people living in cities, air quality should be of huge importance for everyone. Cities really should gradually outlaw ICE vehicles in large populace areas over the next decade. Purely from an air quality standard. That I’m sure we can agree on while we do burnouts on our respective 1000hp vehicles - my Tesla of which destroys your Viper in almost every single metric, except sound and the boner inducing vibration of that big dog of a V10 truck engine in the front.

Alas enjoy the golden years of mixin ya fuel and I’m sure enjoying the snow rides
4
11/16/2019 5:41am
Zacka 161 wrote:
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive... Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper...
Ktm has a steel frame and is the most expensive...

Google ‘gave up renewables’ in 2011 not because they ‘didn’t work’, not because they weren’t cheaper and not because they weren’t more efficient but because they didn’t think they would reduce the emissions fast enough to make as big of a difference as they would like. But they just invested $2 billion in renewables this year. So you are wrong.

And nobody has said the planet will run out of gasoline, that is nobodies fear so thanks for stating a redundant fact. Scientist don’t say ‘we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions because otherwise we will run out of oil’. Because the earth won’t run out of oil is precisely why big oil invests in politicians to go against science to support their cause, which is to make money, from oil, regardless of its impact. You do realise combustion in internal combustion means ‘burning’ right?

Look at the tech industry, the costs of new tech continues to drop. 20 years ago and 85 inch LED tv was probably half a million dollars now it’s closer to $500.... to do what a phone can do now 20 years ago would require multiple machines and tens of thousands of dollars now its under $1000. These are things that probably didn’t seem viable to luddites at the time but is now common place,. We used to have kerosene refrigeration which you just filled up and had a fridge. At the time running electrical lines throughout the country so you could plug in a fridge etc probably also seemed unnecessary and unviable. and big kerosene probably fought against its introduction, like big oil is now.

‘The entire premise of the product is unviable’ Please explain? I understand battery tech isn’t there, but that side of it has already been proven with Alta, and that was now 3-4 year old tech.... you can’t do the Dakar on a better bike but you also probably can’t do it on a cr125 either. Once batteries are interchangeable, and can be have for say 3k each, they become incredibly viable.








Ktm is the most expensive because it has an electric start, hydraulic clutch, Brembo brakes, and a host of other higher quality units on it. They...
Ktm is the most expensive because it has an electric start, hydraulic clutch, Brembo brakes, and a host of other higher quality units on it. They are expensive because the market determines price, people pay for it...
I’m sorry you think renewables can save the planet. Cell phones... can you say “monopoly”? Apple forces people to buy newer models by throttling cpu speed. Has nothing to do with the battery.. nobody should be paying 160$ a month for cell phone service. The market dictates it though..battery life of old phones still lasts 100x longer.

Even with all the technology in LCD, which is back lit by LEDs instead of tubes... the old 70’s CRT screen with fly back still produces the best picture, is faster, better contrast, and not affected by cold. I get what your trying to say... I really do, but I understand where it ends. Example, we have a big shop, I have a 30,000 watt stereo system.. powered by huge Crown amps. I can kick the breakers in our shop instantly.. along with compressors, hot water heaters.. vacuum pumps.. even if the entire property were littered with solar panels or wind mills, you couldn’t produce the power RMS we need real time.. yes, solar panels will power light bulbs at your deer shack.. or house when nobody is home, but people don’t seem to understand this because they don’t know much about electricity. The Grid was shut down in California and solar wont even work because it was too expensive and people don’t have battery systems in place, they are pushing back and forth real-time to the grid 😂
Like all else.. “renewable energy ain’t it”
I live in Duluth, the Solar farm our city is bragging about is currently covered in snow and not producing dick, they had to place them last year because they failed. It’s cost, on cost, on cost, and now Minnesota power wants to raise prices even with ridiculous subsidies. I’m over it
Zacka 161 wrote:
Yeah cool, in your particular example solar cells on the roof is not sustainable. Many other places it’s perfect. Apple does not have a monopoly, they...
Yeah cool, in your particular example solar cells on the roof is not sustainable. Many other places it’s perfect.

Apple does not have a monopoly, they are not even the market leader anymore. Do some research. Yes phone batteries lasted much longer.... Wãs this due to the batteries being better or maybe just maybe the phones are doing just a little bit more now... maybe. I’m not sure though, maybe. Phone batteries are lasting far longer than laptops from 20 years ago and are smaller, lighter and can do far far far more.

70S crt TVs produce better pictures than current 85 in 4K OLEDS? Righto you have really jumped the shark here. Hilarious.

Please have a look at your arguments, then do some research, then you might not make so many unfounded statements.
YES, CRTs are still better than OLED in many facets... why do you not agree?
I was referring to cell phone companies having monopolies, not cell phone manufactures, my texting fingers can’t keep up with you and my thoughts can’t come out fast enough. You are wearing me out. 😂
Hey, I own a computer business. I need to keep up on this stuff.. 4K doesn’t Necessarily mean you have a better picture quality. At what point can the human eye not discern? Find me the highest megapixel camera made, and I’ll find you a low megapixel camera with high quality CCD that takes 1000x better pictures. Do some research on this stuff
2
peltier626
Posts
1401
Joined
3/15/2018
Location
LA US
11/16/2019 6:03am
Good info and conversation guys, the most practical and attainable info out of all of that is MUFFLERS on these fart machines. That would be one of the easiest and immediate remedies to the most common complaint by the non moto commoners. These modern bikes have enough power to compensate for the loss of a suitable muffler system. Get ur done.
2

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