The "Americans ride a lot of Supercross" excuse

aees
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aees 9/1/2017 1:40am
9/1/2017 1:40am
mxjon454 wrote:
Most american riders are focused on supercross for about 7 months with no real outdoor riding. Say what you want about it, but like someone else...
Most american riders are focused on supercross for about 7 months with no real outdoor riding. Say what you want about it, but like someone else said thats the reality. If our guys were focused on outdoors year around im sure it would be a different talk.
Europe Pro riders do 60% or more riding sand. Someone like Herlings has completely different bike setup for that (even different forks). That setup and riding technique is equally different than supercross.

So, either riding difference conditions and styles adds to being a better rider, or it does not. Europe rider also travel more and are exposed to more different weather conditions and has to factor that in to, including temperature differences.

Underground 9/1/2017 1:57am
9/1/2017 1:57am Edited Date/Time 9/1/2017 2:07am
Underground wrote:
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early...
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early in the GP's were well reported and documented here. There's been plenty of riders who have no clue on bike set, and if you don't know that you haven't been in or around the industry enough. What I'm saying is that the firm and slow suspension desired in SX is influencing the outdoor setup as this is the feel US riders are used to 8 months of the year. SX has also influenced riding style and line choice and all these SX influenced factors including a greater amount of SX testing have given the GP riders an edge in MX IMO.
And BTW, Charlotte wasn't an MX track. It was a stadium track with slightly wider turns and less bowl corners than a SX track
jorgechavez wrote:
Every time I see someone compare that Charlotte track to an SX track or try to say Americans had an advantage I can't help but laugh...
Every time I see someone compare that Charlotte track to an SX track or try to say Americans had an advantage I can't help but laugh. Charlotte was far from an SX track, it was a flat styled motocross track, which the GP riders have much more experience on as they race on that style of track fairly often. Qatar, Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand and plenty others were very similar. Maybe if you added some big SX whoops, peaked out triples and long rhythm sections I'd agree but none of that was there.. hardly a Supercross track.
Flat style Motocross track! Lol It's a MX track or it's not. How bout stadium Motocross? It was shit track
TimR
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TimR 9/1/2017 2:20am
9/1/2017 2:20am
Zaugg wrote:
Herlings went fast at Ironman...no doubt. Keep in mind, if Marvin doesn't fall, Herlings goes 1-2 for 2nd overall. Also keep in mind you have one...
Herlings went fast at Ironman...no doubt.

Keep in mind, if Marvin doesn't fall, Herlings goes 1-2 for 2nd overall. Also keep in mind you have one of the 4 fastest AMA guys managing his championship, another on the sidelines with a jacked up hand, and the the other racing with a jacked up hand.

Herlings is fast but one race doesn't making him unbeatable or the fastest guy on two wheels. Talent (and luck) were a factor in Indiana.

This argument works on both sides of the pond. We should be stoked that the AMA and MXGP guys are fun to watch.



Are you stupid? You forgetting that Herlings crashed in second moto too?

So you count in Marvins crash but not Herlings?
Prejump
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Prejump 9/1/2017 2:46am
9/1/2017 2:46am
Titan1 wrote:
lol...America's "ace in the hole" card is "well, put herlings on a supercross track". The GP cheerleaders "ace in the hole" card is "well, put tomac...
lol...America's "ace in the hole" card is "well, put herlings on a supercross track".

The GP cheerleaders "ace in the hole" card is "well, put tomac on the line at Lommel".

For the record, I disagree, I don't think Tomac would even podium at Lommel...And I don't think Herlings would podium at a supercross. Both have the talent that with a little dedication and practice they could eventual win at those venues. But not in a one off race.
I think for a elite level rider SX would be easier to learn then Lommel. Lommel in race conditions is mind blowing. SX takes a skill & is more dangerous. But it terms of riding the pace of the sand specialists consistently. That's could be nigh on impossible.

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RichardLoots 9/1/2017 4:15am
9/1/2017 4:15am
Park Boys wrote:
You basically just said AMA guys are fast on AMA tracks and GP guys are fast on GP tracks.
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
Crush
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Crush 9/1/2017 4:24am
9/1/2017 4:24am
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's...

Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think of who's suspension looks as forgiving as that. Tomac and even Marv's bike look so harsh up front and dead in the rear.
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PressPassP 9/1/2017 5:52am
9/1/2017 5:52am
cali11 wrote:
So if Tomac kicks ass this Sunday, will all this end?
No because Ironman and Jacksonville sees them all facing up in America

( If Seely wins his Motos at the MXdN in Europe then we have another round of this crap Woohoo )
Flip109
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Flip109 9/1/2017 6:23am
9/1/2017 6:23am
Why do people continually argue about this lol. Who cares if Herlings smoked everyone. It was awesome to see someone ride a bike that fast. People on here argue like it's their kids out there racing, or they actually had something to do with the riders success, just because they are from the same continent. LaughingLaughing
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KurtJ99 9/1/2017 6:38am
9/1/2017 6:38am
Crush wrote:
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's... Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think...
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's...

Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think of who's suspension looks as forgiving as that. Tomac and even Marv's bike look so harsh up front and dead in the rear.
Yeah, but don't you think that softness contributed to the crashs at MEC and A2. Looked to me like he bottomed out before crashing. There must be a reason SX runs stiff.
jorgechavez 9/1/2017 10:40am
9/1/2017 10:40am
Underground wrote:
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early...
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early in the GP's were well reported and documented here. There's been plenty of riders who have no clue on bike set, and if you don't know that you haven't been in or around the industry enough. What I'm saying is that the firm and slow suspension desired in SX is influencing the outdoor setup as this is the feel US riders are used to 8 months of the year. SX has also influenced riding style and line choice and all these SX influenced factors including a greater amount of SX testing have given the GP riders an edge in MX IMO.
And BTW, Charlotte wasn't an MX track. It was a stadium track with slightly wider turns and less bowl corners than a SX track
jorgechavez wrote:
Every time I see someone compare that Charlotte track to an SX track or try to say Americans had an advantage I can't help but laugh...
Every time I see someone compare that Charlotte track to an SX track or try to say Americans had an advantage I can't help but laugh. Charlotte was far from an SX track, it was a flat styled motocross track, which the GP riders have much more experience on as they race on that style of track fairly often. Qatar, Mexico, Indonesia, Thailand and plenty others were very similar. Maybe if you added some big SX whoops, peaked out triples and long rhythm sections I'd agree but none of that was there.. hardly a Supercross track.
Underground wrote:
Flat style Motocross track! Lol It's a MX track or it's not. How bout stadium Motocross? It was shit track
Not saying it was a good track just saying that GP riders race on that style of track fairly often and IMO had an advantage there. No AMA motocross track is even remotely similar.
NorCal 50+
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NorCal 50+ 9/1/2017 12:10pm
9/1/2017 12:10pm
Underground wrote:
The US bike set up is too SX based these days, r.e. stiff susupension and quick turning. Think RV2 in his last season racing the GP's...
The US bike set up is too SX based these days, r.e. stiff susupension and quick turning. Think RV2 in his last season racing the GP's. He was told his set up was too stiff but used it anyway and got served. As his set up evolved through the year, results improved. It wasn't just a case of remembering how to ride old school MX
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Ehh...Kawasaki is a multi-million dollar company with an army of technicians and world-class technology, along with decades of racing experience building champions at the highest levels...
Ehh...Kawasaki is a multi-million dollar company with an army of technicians and world-class technology, along with decades of racing experience building champions at the highest levels. They can't work with their rider set up a bike for an outdoor track? Even if that is the case- it is a flaw, not a valid reason.
Underground wrote:
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early...
They have all the resources to set up a bike to what ever the rider wishes. Doesn't mean the rider knows what's best. RV2's issues early in the GP's were well reported and documented here. There's been plenty of riders who have no clue on bike set, and if you don't know that you haven't been in or around the industry enough. What I'm saying is that the firm and slow suspension desired in SX is influencing the outdoor setup as this is the feel US riders are used to 8 months of the year. SX has also influenced riding style and line choice and all these SX influenced factors including a greater amount of SX testing have given the GP riders an edge in MX IMO.
And BTW, Charlotte wasn't an MX track. It was a stadium track with slightly wider turns and less bowl corners than a SX track
I haven't been around the industry very much, that's true. But if I look at Factory Kawasaki, and really believe that they can't set up a bike for an outdoor track vs. an indoor track, I guess I have zero chance of setting up my bike for anything whatsoever. If an army of technicians with computers and limitless resources can't adapt to different tracks, then what hope does Joe Average have?
I can't believe that suspension settings were the reason Herlings went from near-last to first place. If the tables were turned and Euros were saying they got beat because of bike set-up, they would be getting hammered on here.
etccb
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etccb 9/1/2017 12:54pm
9/1/2017 12:54pm
KTM USA should of kept Herlings bike as it was after ironman locked away as a test mule and guide for the us teams outdoor program. Learn to get use to going fast on this boys, sx is over.
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TDeath21 9/1/2017 2:19pm
9/1/2017 2:19pm
Park Boys wrote:
You basically just said AMA guys are fast on AMA tracks and GP guys are fast on GP tracks.
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
RichardLoots 9/1/2017 2:22pm
9/1/2017 2:22pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2017 2:24pm
Park Boys wrote:
You basically just said AMA guys are fast on AMA tracks and GP guys are fast on GP tracks.
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
inferior competition as in Webb,Forkner,Martin,Musquin,Bagget,Bogle ? you sure Wink
all outdoors champs in USA except for Forkner who is your biggest talent
St Ann More
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St Ann More 9/1/2017 3:30pm
9/1/2017 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2017 3:32pm
Park Boys wrote:
You basically just said AMA guys are fast on AMA tracks and GP guys are fast on GP tracks.
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
What's Tomac's excuse for being on average sixth then over the last six motos in Europe?
TDeath21
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TDeath21 9/1/2017 3:39pm
9/1/2017 3:39pm
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
St Ann More wrote:
What's Tomac's excuse for being on average sixth then over the last six motos in Europe?
He isn't an all time great rider and it was against stiff competition.
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TDeath21 9/1/2017 3:47pm
9/1/2017 3:47pm
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
RichardLoots wrote:
inferior competition as in Webb,Forkner,Martin,Musquin,Bagget,Bogle ? you sure Wink
all outdoors champs in USA except for Forkner who is your biggest talent
Well Forkner and Webb beat him for a moto and one for the overall while Herlings was in championship mode. Baggett wasn't full strength last weekend. Tomac was in championship mode. Musquin was his only threat really. But all those guys listed are a step below Herlings. My post wasn't a dig at Herlings I was just saying that's why his results were so good. And the MX2 class last year wasn't that great aside from him. That's in reference to his Glen Helen 1-1 scores.

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jorgechavez 9/1/2017 4:23pm
9/1/2017 4:23pm Edited Date/Time 9/1/2017 4:23pm
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
St Ann More wrote:
What's Tomac's excuse for being on average sixth then over the last six motos in Europe?
I don't think you can really compare MXdN results to a GP or AMA race, it's a completely different situation. Especially for a rider on team USA. And I'm not sure where you get 6 motos from? Pretty sure it's only 4.
RichardLoots 9/2/2017 2:55am
9/2/2017 2:55am
TDeath21 wrote:
Well Forkner and Webb beat him for a moto and one for the overall while Herlings was in championship mode. Baggett wasn't full strength last weekend...
Well Forkner and Webb beat him for a moto and one for the overall while Herlings was in championship mode. Baggett wasn't full strength last weekend. Tomac was in championship mode. Musquin was his only threat really. But all those guys listed are a step below Herlings. My post wasn't a dig at Herlings I was just saying that's why his results were so good. And the MX2 class last year wasn't that great aside from him. That's in reference to his Glen Helen 1-1 scores.
youre excuses make them inferior competition dude ... hilarious
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Crush 9/2/2017 3:06am
9/2/2017 3:06am
Crush wrote:
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's... Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think...
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's...

Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think of who's suspension looks as forgiving as that. Tomac and even Marv's bike look so harsh up front and dead in the rear.
KurtJ99 wrote:
Yeah, but don't you think that softness contributed to the crashs at MEC and A2. Looked to me like he bottomed out before crashing. There must...
Yeah, but don't you think that softness contributed to the crashs at MEC and A2. Looked to me like he bottomed out before crashing. There must be a reason SX runs stiff.
Mmmm... I don't think i'd compare their SX and MX suspension actions or the two crashes directly...

If I remember correctly, A2 he went slightly long into the pocket, caught an edge in a rut and lost the drive.

Vegas, didn't he go short on the first then try power through the 2nd and that is what lost his drive?

I guess I was more comparing outdoors, Kenny's bike always look long legged, lots of action, active, plush etc. Dungeys bike looked like a squat ass shorty and he was squashing his balls off trying to keep up sitting down. Meanwhile, Kenny is standing, suspension is fluid... Same in 16. Bike looked great. Eli's bike looks dead compared.
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Park Boys 9/2/2017 4:08am
9/2/2017 4:08am Edited Date/Time 9/2/2017 4:25am
RichardLoots wrote:
you didnt notice Herlings his reults in last 6 US track races , 1-2-1-1-1-1 ... ??
TDeath21 wrote:
Yeah that'll happen when an all time great rider races against inferior competition.
St Ann More wrote:
What's Tomac's excuse for being on average sixth then over the last six motos in Europe?
6 he has been in 4. Quali races don't count, no points. He's crashed in two of em that's his biggest problem. All four MxDN motos he has had the speed as evidence by having the fastest lap in all of em including having fastest laps at the event on a 250 RV is the only other guy to have the fastet pace on a 250f in both motos. Two of the four motos he sliced through the competition with ease and then crashed, his big problem. He crashed in the first turn in one of em and crashed again and still finished 3rd. One of the motos he and Roczen put 50 seconds on Desalle who was on a 450 in third. Only one Moto was he not the focal point of the race. Actually in the 8 motos he has done for the FIM MxDN and GP's he has been the fastest guy. So to answer your question on the biggest stage he has been the fastest every time but he crashes to much. Also I don't know but other than when he has crashed has Eli ever been passed in a MxDN Moto when he has been riding?
RichardLoots 9/2/2017 4:23am
9/2/2017 4:23am Edited Date/Time 9/2/2017 4:26am
Park Boys wrote:
6 he has been in 4. Quali races don't count, no points. He's crashed in two of em that's his biggest problem. All four MxDN motos...
6 he has been in 4. Quali races don't count, no points. He's crashed in two of em that's his biggest problem. All four MxDN motos he has had the speed as evidence by having the fastest lap in all of em including having fastest laps at the event on a 250 RV is the only other guy to have the fastet pace on a 250f in both motos. Two of the four motos he sliced through the competition with ease and then crashed, his big problem. He crashed in the first turn in one of em and crashed again and still finished 3rd. One of the motos he and Roczen put 50 seconds on Desalle who was on a 450 in third. Only one Moto was he not the focal point of the race. Actually in the 8 motos he has done for the FIM MxDN and GP's he has been the fastest guy. So to answer your question on the biggest stage he has been the fastest every time but he crashes to much. Also I don't know but other than when he has crashed has Eli ever been passed in a MxDN Moto when he has been riding?
are there points for fastest lap ? in youre logic , Herlings should have won more races as Cairoli as he had the fastest lap in 7 races and Cairoli only 5 .... fastest laps is what it says , a fast lap and doesnt make you the fastest rider on a track during a moto in 30 min + 2 laps when you crash after a fast lap ... its called riding above youre capabilities
Make up youre mind , as in one topic you smash the fastest lap theory and the other topic you use it in opposite way.

Youre the master in explaining why somebody doesnt win .. keep it up as in the end of the day , the results counts
and the rider who won was fastest , not the guy ending up 4th with fastest lap but crashing 2 times
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 9/2/2017 7:33am
9/2/2017 7:33am
ALL of the real money is in SX, that's what I would practice mostly also
MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 9/2/2017 8:42am
9/2/2017 8:42am
Underground wrote:
Watch some old US SX races from back in the 80's and even 90's and the softness in the suspension back then looks ridiculous, so it...
Watch some old US SX races from back in the 80's and even 90's and the softness in the suspension back then looks ridiculous, so it still wouldn't be overly stiff for MX if they did't change it much.
I was just watching a old school race from I believe it was 83' Pontiac silverdome when Hannah was riding for Honda and I was just saying to my wow that suspension looked Charmin soft that Honda was soaking up everything! Actually he looked fast because of it!
Nathan_Alexander 9/2/2017 9:23am
9/2/2017 9:23am
Hey bubs I'm pretty sure last time I checked we have 18 rounds of supercross. With 2 months of supercross testing and preparation. While we have 12 rounds of motocross with 1 week of motocross testing during our "break".
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ocscottie 9/2/2017 9:30am
9/2/2017 9:30am
Nathan_Alexander wrote:
Hey bubs I'm pretty sure last time I checked we have 18 rounds of supercross. With 2 months of supercross testing and preparation. While we have...
Hey bubs I'm pretty sure last time I checked we have 18 rounds of supercross. With 2 months of supercross testing and preparation. While we have 12 rounds of motocross with 1 week of motocross testing during our "break".
Nasty!! whats up brother? Preach!
Park and Huck 9/2/2017 9:36am
9/2/2017 9:36am
Crush wrote:
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's... Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think...
Did anyone else look at Herlings' suspension and thought it looked way better than the field's...

Kenny is the only current AMA rider I can think of who's suspension looks as forgiving as that. Tomac and even Marv's bike look so harsh up front and dead in the rear.
I have been saying this forever.


I was at MXdN in Lommel, and every US rider had HORRENDOUS set up for the sand... now of course that a full snad track, but last week I made the comment about Herlings suspension at Iron Man - I think the set up culture in the US leans toward stiffer settings and that's fine when everyone is doing the same, but when you start racing guys with better setups, it shows pretty quickly.

Of course the Vital genius's say there is nothing to be learned...
Ghostrider145 9/2/2017 9:47am
9/2/2017 9:47am
Jeffrey is just faster then any rider in America it's that simple. Idc where a person is from, if your fast your fast.
I still think JMB could of been the best ever but he lost interest. At times I think that the Euros have more Grit. They uproot their lives and travel the world to chase a dream with zero promises.

Ghost

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