The "Americans ride a lot of Supercross" excuse

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8/31/2017 10:58 AM

Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

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8/31/2017 11:03 AM

Bout time this was finally brought up

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8/31/2017 11:04 AM

Thorpe lost his rear brake that moto. And yes there is overreaction to this one race . But also Herlings is a special talent . There is much left to be written but he may be on a level comparable to Everts or RC . We'll see.

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8/31/2017 11:05 AM

This is not an excuse, this is just a reality.

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8/31/2017 11:08 AM

Also it's the same riders who are at the top of the game in both MX/SX in AMA.

Moral of the story if you can ride a dirt bike fast no matter what country you are from you can likely get similar results in SX given enough practise.

The tide will change this weekend when Eli brings his A-game. The tops boys are all on a very similar level it's just s shame we don't get to see them up against each other in a championship. Enjoy while we can.

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8/31/2017 11:10 AM

NorCal 50+ wrote:

Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

When Thorpe was about 40 he came & raced the south western champion in UK. It's prob the strongest regional champs in UK & the expert class was stacked. Plenty of decent young national riders amongst a load of fast local experts. Adam Chatfield came back at one point after he had been racing SX in states. Didnt break top 10 in expert class that day. Anyway point is Thorpe used to turn up in pickup, roll bike off back & kick all our asses, pretty much every race. He won the title for a few years down there.

He style looks relaxed but his corner speed is seriously fast & certainly not novice like I can assure anyone. smile

Onto the point about the states speed. Do you think it's also a case of the rest of the world improving also. If you look at the amount of the countries that can produce world class riders, the GP have been more competitive & that will raise the standard of riders.

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8/31/2017 11:14 AM

Talent doesn't know geography.

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

8/31/2017 11:14 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/31/2017 11:19 AM

Supercross 30 years ago was nothing like it is today. SX then was a sideline to the real business of motocross which is what our riders focused on. Today it is the exact opposite. The triple, double, hop, jump, table, 180 turn, whoops that comprise SX today obviously doesnt translate as well as it once did. We have a problem in that most riders are SX specialists now. Outdoors is not a priority and speeds are much higher. Witness the SX only contracts.

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8/31/2017 11:15 AM

The European equivalent to the SX excuse is.
" AMA riders should come and ride lommel see how they get on "

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8/31/2017 11:20 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/31/2017 11:21 AM

Doesnt herlings smoke all but 3 guys in mxgp too? You euros sit there and talk like your #10 guy can come smoke tomac like herlings did. You guys won 1 battle. Sit the fuck down and let murica handle you at WW ranch like we did 4 races last year.

The us riders do supercross half the year and eu still struggles.

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8/31/2017 11:24 AM

Acidreamer wrote:

Doesnt herlings smoke all but 3 guys in mxgp too? You euros sit there and talk like your #10 guy can come smoke tomac like herlings did. You guys won 1 battle. Sit the fuck down and let murica handle you at WW ranch like we did 4 races last year.

The us riders do supercross half the year and eu still struggles.

To be fair it was an American who started this thread.

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8/31/2017 11:29 AM

Riders like Roczen,Musquin,Tomac .....know how to ride sx and mx.Europeans stepped up their game over the last 20 years.The best of them have the talent to learn sx really fast and win races in the us.Imo i think europeans (GP-riders) can adapt faster on different tracks than us riders.

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8/31/2017 11:31 AM

mx317 wrote:

Talent doesn't know geography.

This guy gets it

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8/31/2017 11:31 AM

We need an MXON mini series. Race a couple different MX tracks and a couple different SX tracks....

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8/31/2017 11:33 AM

ATKpilot99 wrote:

Thorpe lost his rear brake that moto. And yes there is overreaction to this one race . But also Herlings is a special talent . There is much left to be written but he may be on a level comparable to Everts or RC . We'll see.

This is what I was thinking

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8/31/2017 11:36 AM

huck wrote:

We need an MXON mini series. Race a couple different MX tracks and a couple different SX tracks....

MOTOCROSS des nations.

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8/31/2017 11:41 AM

How can Eli Tomac go undefeated at two USGPs in 2016 and Supercross get blamed for the demise of American Motocross in 2017??

I was really pleased that Herlings finally got his chance to silence the haters and prove to the doubters what he is capable of, but overreaction has been ridiculous. Tomac could easily go 1-1 on Sunday and all this Supercross talk will be forgotten in a flash.

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8/31/2017 11:43 AM

I knew Herlings was fast but..... DAMN! That dude fell in the second moto and was dead last and basically stomped a mud hole in everybody's asses after that. Merica all the way over here but bruh.... you gotta take your cap off to that dude. That was impressive...

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8/31/2017 11:46 AM

Sigh.

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8/31/2017 11:47 AM

Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for outdoors over there. Americans spend more time racing, testing, and practicing for supercross. Give Eli an extra 6-7 months of just outdoor riding and I bet he picks up a few seconds too...

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8/31/2017 11:54 AM

Where all you guys lose perspective is with the ECU. Obviously Jeff's Factory ECU is superior. It's just the way it is. Who could of guessed Roger Decoster would end up being an ECU programming super-genius?

I bet Jeffrey never has a sloppily torqued sprocket bolt either. At the speeds that guy rides can you just imagine the carnage in the spectator areas by flying sprocket bolts and nuts?

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8/31/2017 12:07 PM

My dad is bigger than your dad, my peepee is bigger than your peepee,... who cares as long as we see good racing!

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8/31/2017 12:08 PM

NorCal 50+ wrote:

Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

The US bike set up is too SX based these days, r.e. stiff susupension and quick turning. Think RV2 in his last season racing the GP's. He was told his set up was too stiff but used it anyway and got served. As his set up evolved through the year, results improved. It wasn't just a case of remembering how to ride old school MX

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8/31/2017 12:09 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/31/2017 12:10 PM

Copied and pasted my post from the Herlings 24-0 thread but it applies to this one too...

Yes, there was a time when it was seen as an advantage to race Supercross. The reasons were that Supercross required a bit more precision and aggression as well as some specific techniques. Now that SX has been around for 40 years, these special techniques have propagated to the entire earth which has leveled the playing field. To me, the only advantage that racing SX gives a rider is that it forces them to be precise. But that only matters when actually racing supercross. That precision doesn't help much when blasting down a sandy whooped out straight in Belgium. All the special techniques that made the 80's and 90's American racers harder to beat are now known and practiced by all countries. The disadvantage that SX creates is that there is a lot less practice on things like the sandy whooped out straight I mentioned above. Don't forget the ruts that only get half the year's attention.

My point is that the SX series has become a hindrance to the US riders prowess on a motocross track and the things that made it advantageous in the 80's no longer exist.

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8/31/2017 12:12 PM

Watch some old US SX races from back in the 80's and even 90's and the softness in the suspension back then looks ridiculous, so it still wouldn't be overly stiff for MX if they did't change it much.

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8/31/2017 12:15 PM

jnickell wrote:

Copied and pasted my post from the Herlings 24-0 thread but it applies to this one too...

Yes, there was a time when it was seen as an advantage to race Supercross. The reasons were that Supercross required a bit more precision and aggression as well as some specific techniques. Now that SX has been around for 40 years, these special techniques have propagated to the entire earth which has leveled the playing field. To me, the only advantage that racing SX gives a rider is that it forces them to be precise. But that only matters when actually racing supercross. That precision doesn't help much when blasting down a sandy whooped out straight in Belgium. All the special techniques that made the 80's and 90's American racers harder to beat are now known and practiced by all countries. The disadvantage that SX creates is that there is a lot less practice on things like the sandy whooped out straight I mentioned above. Don't forget the ruts that only get half the year's attention.

My point is that the SX series has become a hindrance to the US riders prowess on a motocross track and the things that made it advantageous in the 80's no longer exist.

Pretty much this. The techniques gained like wheel taps, scrubs, staying low and double jumping are pretty much common place on any local track even

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8/31/2017 12:22 PM

sgrimmxdad wrote:

Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for outdoors over there. Americans spend more time racing, testing, and practicing for supercross. Give Eli an extra 6-7 months of just outdoor riding and I bet he picks up a few seconds too...

The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.

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8/31/2017 12:24 PM

I got nothing better to do but play the what if game all day posts. You guys need to get out and ride or a girl friend.

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8/31/2017 12:30 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/31/2017 12:38 PM

Rowlands wrote:

The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.

No, put Eli on the line at Lommel and he ride for the win especially at Lommel in my opinion.

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8/31/2017 12:32 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/31/2017 12:34 PM

sgrimmxdad wrote:

Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for outdoors over there. Americans spend more time racing, testing, and practicing for supercross. Give Eli an extra 6-7 months of just outdoor riding and I bet he picks up a few seconds too...

Rowlands wrote:

The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.

WCRider wrote:

No, put Eli on the line at Lommel and he ride for the win especially at Lommel in my opinion.

Edit: I highly doubt it but it's possible

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