The "Americans ride a lot of Supercross" excuse

NorCal 50+
Posts
1457
Joined
5/31/2017
Location
Grass Valley, CA US
Edited Date/Time 9/2/2017 9:48am
Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

|
early
Posts
8260
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH US
Fantasy
2212th
8/31/2017 11:03am
Bout time this was finally brought up
ATKpilot99
Posts
9806
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
8/31/2017 11:04am
Thorpe lost his rear brake that moto. And yes there is overreaction to this one race . But also Herlings is a special talent . There is much left to be written but he may be on a level comparable to Everts or RC . We'll see.
WCRider
Posts
3134
Joined
8/19/2017
Location
BE
Fantasy
2287th
8/31/2017 11:05am
This is not an excuse, this is just a reality.
Rowlands
Posts
1706
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
GB
8/31/2017 11:08am
Also it's the same riders who are at the top of the game in both MX/SX in AMA.

Moral of the story if you can ride a dirt bike fast no matter what country you are from you can likely get similar results in SX given enough practise.

The tide will change this weekend when Eli brings his A-game. The tops boys are all on a very similar level it's just s shame we don't get to see them up against each other in a championship. Enjoy while we can.

The Shop

Prejump
Posts
221
Joined
8/4/2017
Location
GB
8/31/2017 11:10am
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they...
Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

When Thorpe was about 40 he came & raced the south western champion in UK. It's prob the strongest regional champs in UK & the expert class was stacked. Plenty of decent young national riders amongst a load of fast local experts. Adam Chatfield came back at one point after he had been racing SX in states. Didnt break top 10 in expert class that day. Anyway point is Thorpe used to turn up in pickup, roll bike off back & kick all our asses, pretty much every race. He won the title for a few years down there.

He style looks relaxed but his corner speed is seriously fast & certainly not novice like I can assure anyone. Smile

Onto the point about the states speed. Do you think it's also a case of the rest of the world improving also. If you look at the amount of the countries that can produce world class riders, the GP have been more competitive & that will raise the standard of riders.
mx317
Posts
4552
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
8/31/2017 11:14am
Talent doesn't know geography.
BMSOBx2
Posts
2088
Joined
2/18/2017
Location
Antioch, CA US
8/31/2017 11:14am Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 11:19am
Supercross 30 years ago was nothing like it is today. SX then was a sideline to the real business of motocross which is what our riders focused on. Today it is the exact opposite. The triple, double, hop, jump, table, 180 turn, whoops that comprise SX today obviously doesnt translate as well as it once did. We have a problem in that most riders are SX specialists now. Outdoors is not a priority and speeds are much higher. Witness the SX only contracts.
Rowlands
Posts
1706
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
GB
8/31/2017 11:15am
The European equivalent to the SX excuse is.
" AMA riders should come and ride lommel see how they get on "
Acidreamer
Posts
1794
Joined
8/25/2015
Location
Mansfield, OH US
8/31/2017 11:20am Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 11:21am
Doesnt herlings smoke all but 3 guys in mxgp too? You euros sit there and talk like your #10 guy can come smoke tomac like herlings did. You guys won 1 battle. Sit the fuck down and let murica handle you at WW ranch like we did 4 races last year.

The us riders do supercross half the year and eu still struggles.
8/31/2017 11:24am
Acidreamer wrote:
Doesnt herlings smoke all but 3 guys in mxgp too? You euros sit there and talk like your #10 guy can come smoke tomac like herlings...
Doesnt herlings smoke all but 3 guys in mxgp too? You euros sit there and talk like your #10 guy can come smoke tomac like herlings did. You guys won 1 battle. Sit the fuck down and let murica handle you at WW ranch like we did 4 races last year.

The us riders do supercross half the year and eu still struggles.
To be fair it was an American who started this thread.
8/31/2017 11:29am
Riders like Roczen,Musquin,Tomac .....know how to ride sx and mx.Europeans stepped up their game over the last 20 years.The best of them have the talent to learn sx really fast and win races in the us.Imo i think europeans (GP-riders) can adapt faster on different tracks than us riders.
Ray_MXS
Posts
1116
Joined
10/28/2016
Location
SE
8/31/2017 11:31am
mx317 wrote:
Talent doesn't know geography.
This guy gets it
huck
Posts
17017
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Mountain Home, AR US
8/31/2017 11:31am
We need an MXON mini series. Race a couple different MX tracks and a couple different SX tracks....
downard254
Posts
4055
Joined
12/10/2012
Location
Bremen, OH US
8/31/2017 11:33am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Thorpe lost his rear brake that moto. And yes there is overreaction to this one race . But also Herlings is a special talent . There...
Thorpe lost his rear brake that moto. And yes there is overreaction to this one race . But also Herlings is a special talent . There is much left to be written but he may be on a level comparable to Everts or RC . We'll see.
This is what I was thinking
F.B
Posts
854
Joined
7/10/2011
Location
FR
8/31/2017 11:36am
huck wrote:
We need an MXON mini series. Race a couple different MX tracks and a couple different SX tracks....
MOTOCROSS des nations.
jamma10
Posts
10576
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
8/31/2017 11:41am
How can Eli Tomac go undefeated at two USGPs in 2016 and Supercross get blamed for the demise of American Motocross in 2017??

I was really pleased that Herlings finally got his chance to silence the haters and prove to the doubters what he is capable of, but overreaction has been ridiculous. Tomac could easily go 1-1 on Sunday and all this Supercross talk will be forgotten in a flash.
Predator
Posts
468
Joined
10/21/2011
Location
TX US
8/31/2017 11:43am
I knew Herlings was fast but..... DAMN! That dude fell in the second moto and was dead last and basically stomped a mud hole in everybody's asses after that. Merica all the way over here but bruh.... you gotta take your cap off to that dude. That was impressive...
sgrimmxdad
Posts
1491
Joined
7/23/2013
Location
Farmville, NC US
Fantasy
1936th
8/31/2017 11:47am
Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for outdoors over there. Americans spend more time racing, testing, and practicing for supercross. Give Eli an extra 6-7 months of just outdoor riding and I bet he picks up a few seconds too...
8/31/2017 11:54am
Where all you guys lose perspective is with the ECU. Obviously Jeff's Factory ECU is superior. It's just the way it is. Who could of guessed Roger Decoster would end up being an ECU programming super-genius?

I bet Jeffrey never has a sloppily torqued sprocket bolt either. At the speeds that guy rides can you just imagine the carnage in the spectator areas by flying sprocket bolts and nuts?
brewrabb
Posts
362
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CA
8/31/2017 12:07pm
My dad is bigger than your dad, my peepee is bigger than your peepee,... who cares as long as we see good racing!
8/31/2017 12:08pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they...
Listening to the Moto 60 podcast, I have to say I disagree about the excuse that Americans got smoked by Herlings at the Ironman because they focus so much on SX.
When Johnny O' whipped Thorpe's butt in 1986, the Americans (myself included) pretty much used that one race to declare US superiority for the next, what, 20 years? As far as the US was concerned (egged on by MXA calling Thorpe the word's fastest novice) that one race proved everything-- end of story, close the book. But Thorpe had some kind of problem that day if I remember correctly.
Anyhow, you can't have it both ways. The big story in '86 is that the American riders were so much better BECAUSE they raced Supercross. It supposedly made them more aggressive and better with timing jumps and going over huge jumps. Now we are arguing the opposite effect- it is 30 years later but I just don't think it's legit at all. And if SX is eroding our talent pool to the point that Herlings came to a foreign track on an unfamiliar bike and made them look like Vet B riders, we have a serious problem!

The US bike set up is too SX based these days, r.e. stiff susupension and quick turning. Think RV2 in his last season racing the GP's. He was told his set up was too stiff but used it anyway and got served. As his set up evolved through the year, results improved. It wasn't just a case of remembering how to ride old school MX
jnickell
Posts
408
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
CA US
Fantasy
1738th
8/31/2017 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 12:10pm
Copied and pasted my post from the Herlings 24-0 thread but it applies to this one too...

Yes, there was a time when it was seen as an advantage to race Supercross. The reasons were that Supercross required a bit more precision and aggression as well as some specific techniques. Now that SX has been around for 40 years, these special techniques have propagated to the entire earth which has leveled the playing field. To me, the only advantage that racing SX gives a rider is that it forces them to be precise. But that only matters when actually racing supercross. That precision doesn't help much when blasting down a sandy whooped out straight in Belgium. All the special techniques that made the 80's and 90's American racers harder to beat are now known and practiced by all countries. The disadvantage that SX creates is that there is a lot less practice on things like the sandy whooped out straight I mentioned above. Don't forget the ruts that only get half the year's attention.

My point is that the SX series has become a hindrance to the US riders prowess on a motocross track and the things that made it advantageous in the 80's no longer exist.
8/31/2017 12:12pm
Watch some old US SX races from back in the 80's and even 90's and the softness in the suspension back then looks ridiculous, so it still wouldn't be overly stiff for MX if they did't change it much.
8/31/2017 12:15pm
jnickell wrote:
Copied and pasted my post from the Herlings 24-0 thread but it applies to this one too... Yes, there was a time when it was seen...
Copied and pasted my post from the Herlings 24-0 thread but it applies to this one too...

Yes, there was a time when it was seen as an advantage to race Supercross. The reasons were that Supercross required a bit more precision and aggression as well as some specific techniques. Now that SX has been around for 40 years, these special techniques have propagated to the entire earth which has leveled the playing field. To me, the only advantage that racing SX gives a rider is that it forces them to be precise. But that only matters when actually racing supercross. That precision doesn't help much when blasting down a sandy whooped out straight in Belgium. All the special techniques that made the 80's and 90's American racers harder to beat are now known and practiced by all countries. The disadvantage that SX creates is that there is a lot less practice on things like the sandy whooped out straight I mentioned above. Don't forget the ruts that only get half the year's attention.

My point is that the SX series has become a hindrance to the US riders prowess on a motocross track and the things that made it advantageous in the 80's no longer exist.
Pretty much this. The techniques gained like wheel taps, scrubs, staying low and double jumping are pretty much common place on any local track even
Rowlands
Posts
1706
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
GB
8/31/2017 12:22pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for...
Yes Herlings was fast and he is great outdoors but put him on the gate at A1 and see how it goes. They only train for outdoors over there. Americans spend more time racing, testing, and practicing for supercross. Give Eli an extra 6-7 months of just outdoor riding and I bet he picks up a few seconds too...
The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.
8/31/2017 12:24pm
I got nothing better to do but play the what if game all day posts. You guys need to get out and ride or a girl friend.
WCRider
Posts
3134
Joined
8/19/2017
Location
BE
Fantasy
2287th
8/31/2017 12:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 12:38pm
Rowlands wrote:
The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as...
The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.
No, put Eli on the line at Lommel and he ride for the win especially at Lommel in my opinion.
Rowlands
Posts
1706
Joined
2/4/2015
Location
GB
8/31/2017 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 12:34pm
Rowlands wrote:
The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as...
The results would be similar if you where to put Tomac on the line at the GP of Belgium. Point being there all as good as each other on a dirt bike it just comes down to circumstances.
WCRider wrote:
No, put Eli on the line at Lommel and he ride for the win especially at Lommel in my opinion.
Edit: I highly doubt it but it's possible
robkinuk
Posts
4202
Joined
5/16/2007
Location
Ashbourne GB
8/31/2017 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2017 12:36pm
30 years on, Dave Thorpe, Johnny Omara , RJ and DB enjoy the opening ceremonies in back of Fiat truck. The promoters had replica bikes for Ricky and Johnny to ride but both decided "they came as a team in 86 and 30 years later wouldn't leave David behind in truck, so all three stayed................together!"
Smile


Photo Rob Kinsey Art, all rights reserved.
Champions have a special bond, a true respect and friendship that shines through!
Ps David lost his rear brake in battle with Johnny, just sayin..........................Smile

Post a reply to: The "Americans ride a lot of Supercross" excuse

The Latest