Testing of Trick Engineering transmission?

mister2dt
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Canton, MS US
9/30/2018 7:44am
Did Herta do this 500 mile test on an oval? Knowingly getting in a car on an oval without oil in the trans would require huge...
Did Herta do this 500 mile test on an oval?

Knowingly getting in a car on an oval without oil in the trans would require huge appendages
He did, but, it was after extensive testing of the trans set ups on a dyno beforehand. He wasnt just put on a track without fluids lol. Chris and the Herta team did a lot of dyno testing beforehand to evaluate wether an oval test was safe for one, and worth the potential damage should a failure have occurred.

Another thing we worked on for several years and brought to Indy and NASCAR, along with F1 on Huskamps end, the development and testing of a hybrid alloy called Beralcast363. An aluminum/Beryllium alloy. Incredible material. Replacing the aluminum and some carbon fiber pieces in Hertas dash and steering wheel, it dropped close to 4lbs from the cockpit. Huskamp was able to take that and apply it to front end components as well in F1 and we machined some hubs for Penske’s NASCAR program. Using Beralcast, they were able to better place weight in the cars.

I developed Beralcast road bike hubs, but pricing was astronomical, not market ready until extrusion pricing can be brought down. Talking about $3500 for a set of hubs. Not complete wheels, just the hubs. But, front and rear combined, 228 grams. Thats close to half the weight of carbon/ ceramic sets.
10/1/2018 1:11pm
Still would love to see 2 bikes, one stock and one with coatings. Then have riders ride them back to back, not knowing which bike is coated.
1
BR8ES
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Bennett, CO US
10/1/2018 5:56pm
Ws2 is noticeable and great If people dont know - thats what WPC is, essentially shot blasted ws2 However I disagree - in all our experience...
Ws2 is noticeable and great

If people dont know - thats what WPC is, essentially shot blasted ws2


However I disagree - in all our experience it IS consumable and requires re application


BR8ES wrote:
What about cryo treatment on the drum, gears, etc?
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/09/29/290344/s1200_1118D80A_540F_4F5A_875B_8DC71CA8AAEA.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/09/29/290345/s1200_FF7A0651_F7D7_47BC_B412_1DBB2D991DE1.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/09/29/290346/s1200_D8C4FC80_40E9_4D61_B430_EE5F45042909.jpg[/img]



Sounds like the best combination?!

The Shop

10/1/2018 6:28pm
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2


Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening

Cryo - which ive used with great sucess on certain gear sets - is essentially a heat treat. In simplist terms its a COMPLETED heat treat down to super low temp rather than just room temp

Ive gotten the sales pitch on pistons and alum parts - tested extensively - and not seen the proof in the pudding - but on gears and such - ive seen clearly improved durability
Yeti365
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10/1/2018 6:47pm
Still would love to see 2 bikes, one stock and one with coatings. Then have riders ride them back to back, not knowing which bike is...
Still would love to see 2 bikes, one stock and one with coatings. Then have riders ride them back to back, not knowing which bike is coated.
Other than smoother shifting, I doubt you could tell.

When it comes time for me to do a rebuild, I'm getting everything polished and cryo'd. If anything, durability.
BR8ES
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10/1/2018 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 10/1/2018 7:06pm
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2 Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening Cryo - which ive used...
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2


Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening

Cryo - which ive used with great sucess on certain gear sets - is essentially a heat treat. In simplist terms its a COMPLETED heat treat down to super low temp rather than just room temp

Ive gotten the sales pitch on pistons and alum parts - tested extensively - and not seen the proof in the pudding - but on gears and such - ive seen clearly improved durability
Interesting as I have only heard about it, good to know that on consumables though. I was thinking about getting a bunch of stuff done over winter on the 125. Maybe I will just get the transmission done.
10/1/2018 7:11pm
Well with me building my son's race motors regularly to keep them fresh. I think I may start test these different finishes.
JM485
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10/1/2018 7:41pm
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2 Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening Cryo - which ive used...
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2


Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening

Cryo - which ive used with great sucess on certain gear sets - is essentially a heat treat. In simplist terms its a COMPLETED heat treat down to super low temp rather than just room temp

Ive gotten the sales pitch on pistons and alum parts - tested extensively - and not seen the proof in the pudding - but on gears and such - ive seen clearly improved durability
That result makes sense to me from a fatigue standpoint. Now admittedly I'm not an expert in this field and a lot of guys posting have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but I do have a bit of an understanding of metal fatigue being an ME. The root of a gear tooth is very highly and syclically stressed, so by achieving a "perfect" surface finish free from micro scratches (ie stress raisers), the longevity of each gear should be greatly increased. As far as I'm aware every fatigue failure begins as a small surface imperfection that acts as a stress raiser (since the highest stress is at the surface baring some strange void or something internally) that eventually progresses to a crack, so I'd assume any process that improves surface finish would lead to improved gear and shaft life correct?

Going by this same line of thinking I would assume treating crank rods would lead to a longer lifespan as well.
barnett468
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Wildomar, CA US
10/1/2018 7:46pm
Still would love to see 2 bikes, one stock and one with coatings. Then have riders ride them back to back, not knowing which bike is...
Still would love to see 2 bikes, one stock and one with coatings. Then have riders ride them back to back, not knowing which bike is coated.
Doesn't matter because the trannys done the way I do them shift noticeably smoother and with less effort.
barnett468
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10/1/2018 7:49pm Edited Date/Time 10/1/2018 7:50pm
Yeti365 wrote:
Other than smoother shifting, I doubt you could tell. When it comes time for me to do a rebuild, I'm getting everything polished and cryo'd. If...
Other than smoother shifting, I doubt you could tell.

When it comes time for me to do a rebuild, I'm getting everything polished and cryo'd. If anything, durability.
polishing the entire trans on a polishing buffing wheel or with abrasive media like in a dry vibrating polisher is not the best approach.
barnett468
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10/1/2018 7:53pm
Monk wrote:
Anyone remember Microblue? Didn't they have some slick coatings and even applied it in a dirtbike? I remember they had some reliability problems because it was...
Anyone remember Microblue? Didn't they have some slick coatings and even applied it in a dirtbike? I remember they had some reliability problems because it was too good or something along those line...

http://www.microblueracing.com/smooth-slippery-racing-solutions.html
I am familiar with micro blue but if you want the least friction and lightest bearings you can use ceramic bearings on the crank.
10/1/2018 8:21pm
Monk wrote:
Anyone remember Microblue? Didn't they have some slick coatings and even applied it in a dirtbike? I remember they had some reliability problems because it was...
Anyone remember Microblue? Didn't they have some slick coatings and even applied it in a dirtbike? I remember they had some reliability problems because it was too good or something along those line...

http://www.microblueracing.com/smooth-slippery-racing-solutions.html
barnett468 wrote:
I am familiar with micro blue but if you want the least friction and lightest bearings you can use ceramic bearings on the crank.
Be careful!!


10/1/2018 8:25pm
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2 Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening Cryo - which ive used...
Micro blue isfs the gears then blasts them with ws2


Wpc is a different blast method - almost like shot peening

Cryo - which ive used with great sucess on certain gear sets - is essentially a heat treat. In simplist terms its a COMPLETED heat treat down to super low temp rather than just room temp

Ive gotten the sales pitch on pistons and alum parts - tested extensively - and not seen the proof in the pudding - but on gears and such - ive seen clearly improved durability
JM485 wrote:
That result makes sense to me from a fatigue standpoint. Now admittedly I'm not an expert in this field and a lot of guys posting have...
That result makes sense to me from a fatigue standpoint. Now admittedly I'm not an expert in this field and a lot of guys posting have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but I do have a bit of an understanding of metal fatigue being an ME. The root of a gear tooth is very highly and syclically stressed, so by achieving a "perfect" surface finish free from micro scratches (ie stress raisers), the longevity of each gear should be greatly increased. As far as I'm aware every fatigue failure begins as a small surface imperfection that acts as a stress raiser (since the highest stress is at the surface baring some strange void or something internally) that eventually progresses to a crack, so I'd assume any process that improves surface finish would lead to improved gear and shaft life correct?

Going by this same line of thinking I would assume treating crank rods would lead to a longer lifespan as well.
Thats correct - also whats most benificial is with no “voids” the oil cant hide.

So microwelding between 2 gears under load when oil film is lost - is harder to occur.

This allows a wider selection of oils - with benfits in power there


i always wondered - shot peening improves part strength by creating a stress in the surface - correct?

And polishing removes all stress risers - common hot rod trick for a rod.

Which is better???
JM485
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10/1/2018 8:43pm
Thats correct - also whats most benificial is with no “voids” the oil cant hide. So microwelding between 2 gears under load when oil film is...
Thats correct - also whats most benificial is with no “voids” the oil cant hide.

So microwelding between 2 gears under load when oil film is lost - is harder to occur.

This allows a wider selection of oils - with benfits in power there


i always wondered - shot peening improves part strength by creating a stress in the surface - correct?

And polishing removes all stress risers - common hot rod trick for a rod.

Which is better???
I'm probably going to show my ignorance here but my theory would be this:

Shot peening would make sense for parts that are not in an oil bath, such as a shock spring or something similar that is highly stressed but does not need a surface that a bearing or something similar can ride on. If my understanding is correct shot peening helps reduce the likelihood of a surface crack initiating and propagating by hardening the surface of the part, thus making it harder for dislocations to travel through the material, by slightly and uniformly compressing it. This generally leaves a somewhat "rough" surface that wouldn't be ideal for high precision engine parts correct? For a rod I could see if being alright since the bearing surfaces would have to be masked or machined after the fact, and the rod body itself isn't interfacing with anything directly so the rough surface wouldn't be an issue.

Could you theoretically shot peen, then smooth and treat the surface to achieve an even more fatigue resistant part, or would any surface smoothing operation go deep enough into the material that it would negate the effects of the peening in the first place? Or is this common practice for highly stressed engine parts like rod shafts, trans shafts, ect? Again, I'm far from an expert in this area and am going off my limited knowledge so please set me straight if I'm going off track here, this is just an interesting subject for me and it's great to be able to ask in depth questions with someone who has extensive experience.
Yeti365
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Location
Chula Vista, CA US
10/1/2018 11:25pm
Yeti365 wrote:
Other than smoother shifting, I doubt you could tell. When it comes time for me to do a rebuild, I'm getting everything polished and cryo'd. If...
Other than smoother shifting, I doubt you could tell.

When it comes time for me to do a rebuild, I'm getting everything polished and cryo'd. If anything, durability.
barnett468 wrote:
polishing the entire trans on a polishing buffing wheel or with abrasive media like in a dry vibrating polisher is not the best approach.
The last thing I would do is a buffer wheel.

Exploring the idea of getting a finish on ANYTHING that moves and makes contact with other moving parts that IS NOT pressed into a bearing.

Still looking into it.
mister2dt
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285
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Location
Canton, MS US
10/2/2018 5:37am
Thats correct - also whats most benificial is with no “voids” the oil cant hide. So microwelding between 2 gears under load when oil film is...
Thats correct - also whats most benificial is with no “voids” the oil cant hide.

So microwelding between 2 gears under load when oil film is lost - is harder to occur.

This allows a wider selection of oils - with benfits in power there


i always wondered - shot peening improves part strength by creating a stress in the surface - correct?

And polishing removes all stress risers - common hot rod trick for a rod.

Which is better???
JM485 wrote:
I'm probably going to show my ignorance here but my theory would be this: Shot peening would make sense for parts that are not in an...
I'm probably going to show my ignorance here but my theory would be this:

Shot peening would make sense for parts that are not in an oil bath, such as a shock spring or something similar that is highly stressed but does not need a surface that a bearing or something similar can ride on. If my understanding is correct shot peening helps reduce the likelihood of a surface crack initiating and propagating by hardening the surface of the part, thus making it harder for dislocations to travel through the material, by slightly and uniformly compressing it. This generally leaves a somewhat "rough" surface that wouldn't be ideal for high precision engine parts correct? For a rod I could see if being alright since the bearing surfaces would have to be masked or machined after the fact, and the rod body itself isn't interfacing with anything directly so the rough surface wouldn't be an issue.

Could you theoretically shot peen, then smooth and treat the surface to achieve an even more fatigue resistant part, or would any surface smoothing operation go deep enough into the material that it would negate the effects of the peening in the first place? Or is this common practice for highly stressed engine parts like rod shafts, trans shafts, ect? Again, I'm far from an expert in this area and am going off my limited knowledge so please set me straight if I'm going off track here, this is just an interesting subject for me and it's great to be able to ask in depth questions with someone who has extensive experience.
Shot peening rods is done to help counter pre detonation on rod designs inferior to H beams. Those rods will crack or break, an h beam design can withstand pre detonation for the most part and will usually only bend, limiting damage from pre det. And sometimes piston failure. This isnt quite as accurate in a motorcycle engine as the rods go in to the cases in a different manner from a car engine, a bent rod will still do major damage to cases in most cases. Not so much in a car engine. You can drop an oil pan, swap a rod/ piston set up and keep racing when you bend a rod in a car. Aint happenin in a bike

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