Testing of Trick Engineering transmission?

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9/28/2018 4:55 AM

Any website or magazine have a true test what type of difference their coating makes? Love to see someone do a blind side by side comparison with a stock transmission on the track. Hint hint ML, lol.

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9/28/2018 6:49 AM

You should ask companies like Metalore and Pankel who are so far ahead of the curve regarding gearbox coatings and micro-polishing development (due to their involvement in F1 and aerospace engineering). They have forgotten more about development in this department then most people know.

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9/28/2018 7:14 AM

anniebertmojo wrote:

You should ask companies like Metalore and Pankel who are so far ahead of the curve regarding gearbox coatings and ...more

Ditto

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9/28/2018 7:22 AM

That is all well and good, but pointless if you aren't using Pankl, etc. Transmission refinishing/treatment certainly has it's merits.

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vomiting equals disqualification.

9/28/2018 8:45 AM

KTM owns Pankl last I read on the F1 site. Something like that at least.

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My post is my opinion. If you don't agree with it, I'm OK with it.

9/28/2018 8:56 AM

Moto96 wrote:

KTM owns Pankl last I read on the F1 site. Something like that at least.

Pierer Industrie AG owns Pankl (and KTM, and Husqvarna, and a whole list of other companies).

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9/28/2018 9:50 AM

Moto96 wrote:

KTM owns Pankl last I read on the F1 site. Something like that at least.

MX915 wrote:

Pierer Industrie AG owns Pankl (and KTM, and Husqvarna, and a whole list of other companies).

Actually thats not even right.

Pierer Industrie AG is a subsidiary of Pierer Konzerngesellschaft mbH

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My post is my opinion. If you don't agree with it, I'm OK with it.

9/28/2018 10:11 AM

I may be ignorant in my thinking, but I've never been a fan of coatings for internals. Coatings wear off.

Have you looked at a polishing treatment?

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A wise man once said nothing

9/28/2018 10:38 AM

Hello all -

Just wanted to educate everyone who hasn’t read the website of what the process is that Trick Eng/Myself is doing.

My process is not a coating.

It is an Isotropic Super finishing process. It’s similar to the other companies that do Isotropic finishing. The technology used in my process is one of the few that are used in F1 racing, and many other Motorsports. It’s a proven process that I have purchased directly from the company manufacturing the chemicals and media.

The media is not impregnated with abrasive. It’s not removing stock, or rounding corners like other media/process’s. It’s micro polishing on the micron level. That’s in the millionths of an inch, not even one thousandth.

Again, It is not a coating, this is permanent performance improvement application. It reduces heat, and friction improving power gains and reliability.

I’m not even shooting down coatings. Coatings have a position when budget allows for re-application. The results are great. The companies that offer those services have their place for sure.

Some transmissions that are known to shift rougher than others, riders say shift smoother. But that is something any process should improve when done correctly.

This is not something I just put together with equipment and consumables purchased from local hardware stores. I invested into the proper technology, machines and products to offer a great service for an industry I am very passionate about.

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9/28/2018 10:46 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/28/2018 10:47 AM

mxpimp47 wrote:

Hello all -

Just wanted to educate everyone who hasn’t read the website of what the process is that Trick Eng/Myself is ...more

What about cryo?

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vomiting equals disqualification.

9/28/2018 10:53 AM

Moto96 wrote:

Actually thats not even right.

Pierer Industrie AG is a subsidiary of Pierer Konzerngesellschaft mbH

It gets too complicated if you go further up the organization chart than that. laughing

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9/28/2018 11:30 AM

mxpimp47 wrote:

Hello all -

Just wanted to educate everyone who hasn’t read the website of what the process is that Trick Eng/Myself is ...more

I'm aware of micro polishing. Great stuff and a lot of detailed work that goes into it to make it right. Metalore (who competes against Pankel regarding hight end drive line systems) has been doing this process for a few years now in the upper forms of motorsports. Great stuff. Photo

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9/28/2018 11:35 AM

Most of my work involves automatic transmission testing and R&D. We are looking at doing some testing of various gear coatings in the near future. We are looking at developing a Ti-Si-C-N coating through a depositing method called Plasma Enhanced Magnetron Sputter (PEMS) that was developed in house several years ago. It would be interesting to compare various coatings on the track though!

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9/28/2018 9:15 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/28/2018 9:18 PM

Ive used clayton - at trick - and want to publicly thank him for his services and turn around


If you go down some rabbit holes in engine building - become passionate - and truly seperate fact from fiction, often you learn many things dont do all that is claimed. Some things are huge improvements in an area of small influence/gain. Most frictional gains fall in to that category when it comes to power losses - as frictional loss accounts for around 10 percent now days - and thats scattered all over - with the piston/ring/skirt being the largest of those losses by a huge margin. So - if you halved your gear friction - a massive improvement by itself - sadly you maybe took the isolated loss of 1 or 2 percent and and made it .5 or 1. Not much.

ISF is a process that uniquely removes the high spots on machined parts with nearly minimal removal of material in “low” spots

It essentially coats the part, filling in valleys and building up peaks - then grinds off the peaks over and over again until your at the “valley” level

How much power is it worth on modern bikes? Hardly any - if measureable.

However - what it affords CAN and is worth power - with lubricants and what you can do there. Plus a more durable gear set that will produce less heat - all positives - and by most report shifts better/easier.

Taking it to the next level was dlc coated isf treated trannies developed in F1
This IS worth power which is very Intriguing...as in theory there shouldnt be metal to metal contact anyways - and in practice you’d expect signs of it if there were with micro galling/pitting and gear failures - which is infrequent. But somehow its worth some measureable gains.

and as stated above post - people from oems of all sorts with hard earned degrees and good resource are always developing new cool things that inch forward the benchmark. Thats always the really cool stuff that no one often gets to appreciate. Oems do really cool stuff!

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9/28/2018 10:29 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/28/2018 10:41 PM

MX915 wrote:

It gets too complicated if you go further up the organization chart than that. laughing

It is rather complicated but I spent an inordinate amount of time one evening, along with far too many beers, sorting out the ownership structure of what we all know and understand to be "KTM" and "Husqvarna" and "Pankl," among others. It goes something like this:

At the very, very tippy top of the chain is Pierer Industrie AG ("AG" is the German equivalent of an American Inc. or LLC). This entity, formed by Stefan Pierer (and others), owns roughly 75% of another German entity formally known as "KTM Industries AG." KTM Industries AG is nothing more than a holding company, comprised of subsidiaries...

A subsidiary of KTM Industries AG known as "CROSS KraftFahrZeug Holding GmbH" along with "Bajaj Auto Limited" owns "KTM AG." Baja Limited owns roughly 47% of this entity (this being a recent thing). Baja Limited is the single largest manufacturer of motorcycles in the world, based out of India. KTM AG is the entity that actually makes the KTMs we know and love today. The entity KTM AG also now owns 100% of the brand we know and love as "Husqvarna" as well as WP Suspension.

In 2013, the aforementioned Pierer Industrie AG bought Husqvarna from BMW. That same year Piere Industrie AG subsequently transferred/sold Husqvarna to KTM AG (the manufacturing entity of the KTM Industrie AG entity). This is why you may hear people say that "the CEO of KTM bought Husqvarna." Sorta true but not quite accurate.

Prior to May 2018, Pankl was a subsidiary of the aforementioned KTM Industries AG but was essentially transferred up the chain to Pierer Industrie AG through the US equivalent of a bankruptcy and stock delisting.

It's convoluted as all hell but really it's just a clever way of shuffling around bits and pieces of ownership and risk to a collective of entities, the majority of shares (e.g. the pieces of the pies) being owned by Piere Industrie and KTM Industries AG.

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9/29/2018 5:41 AM

Jeremy Macbeth wrote:

It is rather complicated but I spent an inordinate amount of time one evening, along with far too many beers, sorting out the ...more

or in other words shell companies to avoid taxes..
shift profits and losses..etc..

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9/29/2018 6:37 AM

I had my 2016 KTM SXF polished by Twisted Development during a full rebuild(not sure who they used for the process). Yes definitely made that bike shift smoother, no question.

I had Yoshimura ISF polish my 125 tranny, that bike shifted so well, it’s hard to say that it got better.

I rode the 2019 KTM 450 and 350. The tranny on that shifts smoother then both my bikes stock out of the box!
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9/29/2018 8:59 AM

Jeremy Macbeth wrote:

It is rather complicated but I spent an inordinate amount of time one evening, along with far too many beers, sorting out the ...more

Nope. ThatAt the very, very tippy top of the chain is Pierer Industrie AG isn't the top.
I already posted, that's a subsidiary of Pierer Konzerngesellschaft mbH.
Pretty sure Forbes and Bloomberg would be pretty accurate.

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My post is my opinion. If you don't agree with it, I'm OK with it.

9/29/2018 9:26 AM

CarlinoJoeVideo wrote:

I had my 2016 KTM SXF polished by Twisted Development during a full rebuild(not sure who they used for the process). Yes ...more

The ktms have had in house surface treatments for a few years now - not bling like polish but very good finish


What Ive seen hurting ktm long term in shifting is the aluminum shift drum. After 20 hours or so - the anodizing wears off the shift fork “tracks” and the shifting gets worse. I order new shift drums every case split now...it would be bitching if oems went to a superbike type tranny that didnt require split to remove this stuff


We have been lucky enough to have the prankl gear sets available on very limited occasion for the 250f and 350, and what was most intriguing was how similar it was to the oem/non prankl - but waaaay stronger.

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9/29/2018 9:46 AM

Moto96 wrote:

Nope. ThatAt the very, very tippy top of the chain is Pierer Industrie AG isn't the top.
I already posted, that's a subsidiary ...more

Thanks for clarifying. They actually lay it all out here:

http://www.piererindustrie.at/index.php/en/unternehmen/organigram

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9/29/2018 9:46 AM

If one wants a super slick trans, they can have it coated with tungsten disulfide after they have it rem finished. the place below will do it for around $200.00 but they are in nevada now.

http://appliedtungstenite.com/

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9/29/2018 10:04 AM

barnett468 wrote:

If one wants a super slick trans, they can have it coated with tungsten disulfide after they have it rem finished. the place ...more

Ive been working with Ws2 for about 7 years now. Use it on everything i can. My Tundra is coated. Mpg went up, get about 50-60 more miles out of a tank. Oil changes look drastically different than my prior trucks. Still somewhat golden/ brownish vs. blackish.

I started using it on bearings for my bike hubs. Was working with Huskamp Racing, vapor disposition applications. Got in with them, started working on Indycar and NASCAR projects with him using Ws2 in transmissions and wheel setups. Brian Herta ran a 500 mile test session with a transmission coated in Ws2 and no fluid. Ran all 500 miles, no cold weld, no chipping, no heat damage at all. Solved the oval racing issue of oil starvation on banked turns for them. Reduced trans failures by a huge margin.

You want a smooth shifting trans that wont wear the coating, Ws2 is the way to go. It embeds in the metal. Doesnt wear off or wear out.

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9/29/2018 11:07 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/29/2018 11:07 AM

barnett468 wrote:

If one wants a super slick trans, they can have it coated with tungsten disulfide after they have it rem finished. the place ...more

mister2dt wrote:

Ive been working with Ws2 for about 7 years now. Use it on everything i can. My Tundra is coated. Mpg went up, get about 50-60 ...more

good info. not many people know about this which is why i mentioned it, and doing it along with the rem finishing is as good as it gets.

do you apply it for people if we send you the parts?

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9/29/2018 11:18 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/29/2018 11:21 AM

barnett468 wrote:

good info. not many people know about this which is why i mentioned it, and doing it along with the rem finishing is as good ...more

I will, depending on the parts and if they are already disassembled. I run a cnc shop and do the Ws2 in limited runs along with my work. Most stuff i refer to Huskamp Racing, they run all day everyday and will disassemble and reassemble what you send. I try to stick with just bearings to be honest, thats what i am set up for and have it down to a science lol

And I agree, Ws2 combined with REM is the preferred way to go for maximum efficiency. TiN is a great coating, but it wears, it is simply a coating, it will not imbed in the metal like Ws2. Besides, the drag coefficient of TiN compared to Ws2 is drastic.

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9/29/2018 11:23 AM

Ws2 is noticeable and great

If people dont know - thats what WPC is, essentially shot blasted ws2


However I disagree - in all our experience it IS consumable and requires re application


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9/29/2018 12:27 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

Ws2 is noticeable and great

If people dont know - thats what WPC is, essentially shot blasted ws2


However I disagree - in ...more

What about cryo treatment on the drum, gears, etc?

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vomiting equals disqualification.

9/29/2018 6:04 PM

Great thread, wish there were more like it

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9/29/2018 7:44 PM

Derek Harris wrote:

Ws2 is noticeable and great

If people dont know - thats what WPC is, essentially shot blasted ws2


However I disagree - in ...more

BR8ES wrote:

What about cryo treatment on the drum, gears, etc?

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9/29/2018 7:46 PM

barnett468 wrote:

If one wants a super slick trans, they can have it coated with tungsten disulfide after they have it rem finished. the place ...more

mister2dt wrote:

Ive been working with Ws2 for about 7 years now. Use it on everything i can. My Tundra is coated. Mpg went up, get about 50-60 ...more

Did Herta do this 500 mile test on an oval?

Knowingly getting in a car on an oval without oil in the trans would require huge appendages

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9/29/2018 8:42 PM

mister2dt wrote:

Ive been working with Ws2 for about 7 years now. Use it on everything i can. My Tundra is coated. Mpg went up, get about 50-60 ...more

barnett468 wrote:

good info. not many people know about this which is why i mentioned it, and doing it along with the rem finishing is as good ...more

mister2dt wrote:

I will, depending on the parts and if they are already disassembled. I run a cnc shop and do the Ws2 in limited runs along ...more

where does dlc fit into this stuff?

with what youre say ws2 should be great for suspension parts?
idk
thanks

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