Team USA and MXDN

TbonesPop
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Gilbert, AZ US
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1/2/2022 11:50am
Its not a lack of "can do", its a lack of "want to". The gap has closed between US and MXGP riders, and the MXGP series aligns more closely with the MXDN. So it takes more work and investment to be the best, which it doesn't seem like we have riders willing to do that after a 17 round SX series followed by a 12 round MX series.
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Tbteam
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1/2/2022 12:06pm
Go back and watch the last GP moto if the year. Our guys wouldn’t be anywhere near the front in that race.
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robkinuk
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Ashbourne GB
1/2/2022 1:01pm
vet40 wrote:
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international. Staying national limits your experience to...
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international.

Staying national limits your experience to the variety of conditions mxon will inevitably bring.

Hearing Barcia blame the conditions, saying they made the track “euro” was so painful to hear.

It wasn’t red bud went euro, the race was held in fall & conditions were wetter then when the AMA national is held.

If team usa had riders that raced MXGP then I would pick team USA as favourites most years.

Team USA doesn’t lack speed, they lack experience & confidence outside prime conditions.
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP...
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP racers. Maybe, it just comes down to the fact the GP racers are faster at the moment. If you go back to the 87 Des Nations -- a mud fest -- Team U.S.A. won even though the GP riders had more experience in the mud. It's because our riders were faster.

One day the pendulum will swing back. U.S.A. had a 30+ year run where they won the most, and some of you act like it's gone forever because we haven't won in the last 11 years.

By the way, when's the last time GBR won one? 1994.
At least Team GB have been up the sharp end with several 3rd place podiums, at lot better than Team USA rode.
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1/2/2022 1:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2022 1:11pm
vet40 wrote:
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international. Staying national limits your experience to...
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international.

Staying national limits your experience to the variety of conditions mxon will inevitably bring.

Hearing Barcia blame the conditions, saying they made the track “euro” was so painful to hear.

It wasn’t red bud went euro, the race was held in fall & conditions were wetter then when the AMA national is held.

If team usa had riders that raced MXGP then I would pick team USA as favourites most years.

Team USA doesn’t lack speed, they lack experience & confidence outside prime conditions.
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP...
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP racers. Maybe, it just comes down to the fact the GP racers are faster at the moment. If you go back to the 87 Des Nations -- a mud fest -- Team U.S.A. won even though the GP riders had more experience in the mud. It's because our riders were faster.

One day the pendulum will swing back. U.S.A. had a 30+ year run where they won the most, and some of you act like it's gone forever because we haven't won in the last 11 years.

By the way, when's the last time GBR won one? 1994.
robkinuk wrote:
At least Team GB have been up the sharp end with several 3rd place podiums, at lot better than Team USA rode.
Not really. We didn’t send a team in 2021, and in 2016 we got third, 2nd in 2015, a 3rd in 2014, 2nd in 2013, and 3rd in the sand in 2012.

Those years are in close enough proximity to show U.S.A. has had decent results since their last win in 2011.
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The Shop

Mick 22
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1/2/2022 1:21pm
9, 23 and take your pick on a 250 should finish somewhere near the top
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vet40
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GB
1/2/2022 1:33pm
Not really. We didn’t send a team in 2021, and in 2016 we got third, 2nd in 2015, a 3rd in 2014, 2nd in 2013, and...
Not really. We didn’t send a team in 2021, and in 2016 we got third, 2nd in 2015, a 3rd in 2014, 2nd in 2013, and 3rd in the sand in 2012.

Those years are in close enough proximity to show U.S.A. has had decent results since their last win in 2011.
You were gifted a podium when Simpson chain snapped last lap ? Also Searles standard bike blew up after he was holding off tomac all moto at red bud.

Speed wise gbr have been stronger then USA lately, but bad luck has got them.

Yes USA could beat the rest of the world in the past.

But the world championship has evolved, not just the riders but the tracks are far tougher now.

So when the mxon is on a true world class track, rough & deep as hell, the MXGP guys rise to the top.
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9
Park Boys
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MH US
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1/2/2022 2:21pm
vet40 wrote:
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international. Staying national limits your experience to...
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international.

Staying national limits your experience to the variety of conditions mxon will inevitably bring.

Hearing Barcia blame the conditions, saying they made the track “euro” was so painful to hear.

It wasn’t red bud went euro, the race was held in fall & conditions were wetter then when the AMA national is held.

If team usa had riders that raced MXGP then I would pick team USA as favourites most years.

Team USA doesn’t lack speed, they lack experience & confidence outside prime conditions.
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP...
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP racers. Maybe, it just comes down to the fact the GP racers are faster at the moment. If you go back to the 87 Des Nations -- a mud fest -- Team U.S.A. won even though the GP riders had more experience in the mud. It's because our riders were faster.

One day the pendulum will swing back. U.S.A. had a 30+ year run where they won the most, and some of you act like it's gone forever because we haven't won in the last 11 years.

By the way, when's the last time GBR won one? 1994.
Team USA won in 1987 because of Rick Johnson, Plain and simple. Even though it’s one year after the 86 most dominant team ever we only won because of Rick. It just shows you that the Euros have always been better in the mud. Same thing in 97, one year after the second most dominant team in history the Belgians flood the track and USA gets smoked and gets 7th next year in the mud they loose easily again.
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1/2/2022 2:37pm
Mick 22 wrote:
9, 23 and take your pick on a 250 should finish somewhere near the top
9 will never go as long as he’s at factory kawi.
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1/2/2022 3:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2022 3:22pm
vet40 wrote:
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international. Staying national limits your experience to...
The obvious elephant in the room is the fact that team USA is made up of national riders, not international.

Staying national limits your experience to the variety of conditions mxon will inevitably bring.

Hearing Barcia blame the conditions, saying they made the track “euro” was so painful to hear.

It wasn’t red bud went euro, the race was held in fall & conditions were wetter then when the AMA national is held.

If team usa had riders that raced MXGP then I would pick team USA as favourites most years.

Team USA doesn’t lack speed, they lack experience & confidence outside prime conditions.
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP...
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP racers. Maybe, it just comes down to the fact the GP racers are faster at the moment. If you go back to the 87 Des Nations -- a mud fest -- Team U.S.A. won even though the GP riders had more experience in the mud. It's because our riders were faster.

One day the pendulum will swing back. U.S.A. had a 30+ year run where they won the most, and some of you act like it's gone forever because we haven't won in the last 11 years.

By the way, when's the last time GBR won one? 1994.
Park Boys wrote:
Team USA won in 1987 because of Rick Johnson, Plain and simple. Even though it’s one year after the 86 most dominant team ever we only...
Team USA won in 1987 because of Rick Johnson, Plain and simple. Even though it’s one year after the 86 most dominant team ever we only won because of Rick. It just shows you that the Euros have always been better in the mud. Same thing in 97, one year after the second most dominant team in history the Belgians flood the track and USA gets smoked and gets 7th next year in the mud they loose easily again.
So Jeff Ward going 3-2, and Bob Hannah going 4-1 didn’t help? I’d say Ward and Hannah contributed quite a bit in that win. Both Johnson and Hannah won their classes.
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1/2/2022 3:18pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2022 3:21pm
Not really. We didn’t send a team in 2021, and in 2016 we got third, 2nd in 2015, a 3rd in 2014, 2nd in 2013, and...
Not really. We didn’t send a team in 2021, and in 2016 we got third, 2nd in 2015, a 3rd in 2014, 2nd in 2013, and 3rd in the sand in 2012.

Those years are in close enough proximity to show U.S.A. has had decent results since their last win in 2011.
vet40 wrote:
You were gifted a podium when Simpson chain snapped last lap ? Also Searles standard bike blew up after he was holding off tomac all moto...
You were gifted a podium when Simpson chain snapped last lap ? Also Searles standard bike blew up after he was holding off tomac all moto at red bud.

Speed wise gbr have been stronger then USA lately, but bad luck has got them.

Yes USA could beat the rest of the world in the past.

But the world championship has evolved, not just the riders but the tracks are far tougher now.

So when the mxon is on a true world class track, rough & deep as hell, the MXGP guys rise to the top.
Speed wise GBR hasn’t been faster. You have had mud races where things turned out better for your riders, and hats off to Antsie for his incredible 1-1 in 2017, but would you seriously argue that Max is faster than Gasjer, Paulin, and Cairoli because he beat them in that race?

In 2019, Anderson beat Watson, and in 2018, Tomac soundly beat Searle. I’m also pretty sure aside from Cooper’s bad race in 2019, he’s a lot faster than Adam Sterry.

Team U.S.A. needs to up their game no doubt, but I’m not going to let people shit on them with the “national” riders bullshit.

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mx251
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1/2/2022 3:25pm
these forums are strange indeed
So how can, in the US be so stacked now and yet we can't win...
Yet in the old days when we were supposedly so much slower and unstacked we did win....
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racerx217
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MI US
1/2/2022 3:29pm
mx251 wrote:
these forums are strange indeed So how can, in the US be so stacked now and yet we can't win... Yet in the old days when...
these forums are strange indeed
So how can, in the US be so stacked now and yet we can't win...
Yet in the old days when we were supposedly so much slower and unstacked we did win....
The answer to that is easy, if the Des Nations was a supercross there would be no one that could come close to catching us. We have gotten away from what MX really is and all of the places winning embrace it and don't worry about running races in stadiums. Its all about that almighty US dollar for everyone involved.
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motomike137
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Fenton, MI US
1/2/2022 3:29pm
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP...
That's a crock of shit. In the 80s, 90s, and up until about 2011 our "national" riders were for the most part, faster than the GP racers. Maybe, it just comes down to the fact the GP racers are faster at the moment. If you go back to the 87 Des Nations -- a mud fest -- Team U.S.A. won even though the GP riders had more experience in the mud. It's because our riders were faster.

One day the pendulum will swing back. U.S.A. had a 30+ year run where they won the most, and some of you act like it's gone forever because we haven't won in the last 11 years.

By the way, when's the last time GBR won one? 1994.
Park Boys wrote:
Team USA won in 1987 because of Rick Johnson, Plain and simple. Even though it’s one year after the 86 most dominant team ever we only...
Team USA won in 1987 because of Rick Johnson, Plain and simple. Even though it’s one year after the 86 most dominant team ever we only won because of Rick. It just shows you that the Euros have always been better in the mud. Same thing in 97, one year after the second most dominant team in history the Belgians flood the track and USA gets smoked and gets 7th next year in the mud they loose easily again.
So Jeff Ward going 3-2, and Bob Hannah going 4-1 didn’t help? I’d say Ward and Hannah contributed quite a bit in that win. Both Johnson...
So Jeff Ward going 3-2, and Bob Hannah going 4-1 didn’t help? I’d say Ward and Hannah contributed quite a bit in that win. Both Johnson and Hannah won their classes.
Park Boys is way off on the 87 race. I was there and to say Hurricane and Wardy weren't instrumental in that win is pure hogwash. Yeah RJ was on another planet but Wardy was excellent and Bob spanked the 125 guys with one foot out the door of the sport.
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Rupert X
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Newark, OH US
1/2/2022 3:56pm
Hey. Remember those days when they used to Announce the MXDN team at Red Bud in early July ? Remember when ALL the manufacturers, teams, riders and fans, were double super-stoked about our country competing ? Those days, sadly, are long gone. Sigh.
Johnny Ringo
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Tombstone, AZ US
1/2/2022 4:17pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2022 4:19pm
mx251 wrote:
these forums are strange indeed So how can, in the US be so stacked now and yet we can't win... Yet in the old days when...
these forums are strange indeed
So how can, in the US be so stacked now and yet we can't win...
Yet in the old days when we were supposedly so much slower and unstacked we did win....
racerx217 wrote:
The answer to that is easy, if the Des Nations was a supercross there would be no one that could come close to catching us. We...
The answer to that is easy, if the Des Nations was a supercross there would be no one that could come close to catching us. We have gotten away from what MX really is and all of the places winning embrace it and don't worry about running races in stadiums. Its all about that almighty US dollar for everyone involved.
The riders cared about supercross just as much in 2005 as they do now. That is not the issue.

The issue currently (2017-now) is we aren’t sending our best riders, and when we do (2018) they are off the pace. Are the euros just better right now? Probably.
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Mit12
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1/2/2022 6:52pm
Team USA needs a Million dollar purse! This will make our riders ride to win at all cost.
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Robgvx
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1/2/2022 10:36pm
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and it didn’t affect the results. It was never mentioned once as a handicap before the AMA lost in 2012, and for years (decades?) was touted as the reason for American dominance.

US riders have a 12-round outdoor series to get up to speed. The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track.

The MXdN comes directly after the outdoors. It’s not like it’s in the middle of Supercross and requires switching around. It’s one extra race. And in terms of ‘being tired from a long season’, GP riders spend more time racing than AMA riders do if you consider that Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend. Is it really true that you can’t win in September because your first race in January was 21 days earlier than the European guys?

Ricky Carmichael has 7 MX and 5 SX titles, and 76 MX wins versus 48 SX wins (even though there are more SX races per season). That doesn’t portray MX as the secondary priority for the man you call the greatest rider of all time.

The AMA has an outdoor series that, according to what I’ve seen here, pays a million bucks OEM win bonus. That doesn’t sound like something the riders would have no interest in.

Blaming Supercross is a modern-day crutch to deflect from the reality that GP riders simply caught up. And continuing to hide behind that excuse isn’t the way to change the situation.
1/2/2022 10:53pm
Robgvx wrote:
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and...
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and it didn’t affect the results. It was never mentioned once as a handicap before the AMA lost in 2012, and for years (decades?) was touted as the reason for American dominance.

US riders have a 12-round outdoor series to get up to speed. The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track.

The MXdN comes directly after the outdoors. It’s not like it’s in the middle of Supercross and requires switching around. It’s one extra race. And in terms of ‘being tired from a long season’, GP riders spend more time racing than AMA riders do if you consider that Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend. Is it really true that you can’t win in September because your first race in January was 21 days earlier than the European guys?

Ricky Carmichael has 7 MX and 5 SX titles, and 76 MX wins versus 48 SX wins (even though there are more SX races per season). That doesn’t portray MX as the secondary priority for the man you call the greatest rider of all time.

The AMA has an outdoor series that, according to what I’ve seen here, pays a million bucks OEM win bonus. That doesn’t sound like something the riders would have no interest in.

Blaming Supercross is a modern-day crutch to deflect from the reality that GP riders simply caught up. And continuing to hide behind that excuse isn’t the way to change the situation.
Okay so what's GBR excuse for not winning since 1994?

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Robgvx
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1/2/2022 11:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2022 1:02am
Okay so what's GBR excuse for not winning since 1994?

We don’t have anywhere near the talent or depth of riders to be in with a shout. Our National series is poor, and hardly anyone races GPs anymore so never get to learn how to go fast. You need to race with the fastest riders, and our stay-at-home riders don’t.

To be honest, ‘94 was a one-off. None of the three riders were at the top of their game that year and none were expected to do what they did. They all just had their best day, all at the same time. For that they deserve immense credit. But I for one did not see that result as an indication that GB was suddenly the fastest nation in the world.
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luke11
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1/2/2022 11:48pm
Robgvx wrote:
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and...
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and it didn’t affect the results. It was never mentioned once as a handicap before the AMA lost in 2012, and for years (decades?) was touted as the reason for American dominance.

US riders have a 12-round outdoor series to get up to speed. The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track.

The MXdN comes directly after the outdoors. It’s not like it’s in the middle of Supercross and requires switching around. It’s one extra race. And in terms of ‘being tired from a long season’, GP riders spend more time racing than AMA riders do if you consider that Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend. Is it really true that you can’t win in September because your first race in January was 21 days earlier than the European guys?

Ricky Carmichael has 7 MX and 5 SX titles, and 76 MX wins versus 48 SX wins (even though there are more SX races per season). That doesn’t portray MX as the secondary priority for the man you call the greatest rider of all time.

The AMA has an outdoor series that, according to what I’ve seen here, pays a million bucks OEM win bonus. That doesn’t sound like something the riders would have no interest in.

Blaming Supercross is a modern-day crutch to deflect from the reality that GP riders simply caught up. And continuing to hide behind that excuse isn’t the way to change the situation.
Okay so what's GBR excuse for not winning since 1994?

We are a tiny country which has a talent pool 10x smaller than USA. We’re not even half the size of Texas.
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1
CPR
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AU
1/3/2022 12:33am
Robgvx wrote:
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and...
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and it didn’t affect the results. It was never mentioned once as a handicap before the AMA lost in 2012, and for years (decades?) was touted as the reason for American dominance.

US riders have a 12-round outdoor series to get up to speed. The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track.

The MXdN comes directly after the outdoors. It’s not like it’s in the middle of Supercross and requires switching around. It’s one extra race. And in terms of ‘being tired from a long season’, GP riders spend more time racing than AMA riders do if you consider that Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend. Is it really true that you can’t win in September because your first race in January was 21 days earlier than the European guys?

Ricky Carmichael has 7 MX and 5 SX titles, and 76 MX wins versus 48 SX wins (even though there are more SX races per season). That doesn’t portray MX as the secondary priority for the man you call the greatest rider of all time.

The AMA has an outdoor series that, according to what I’ve seen here, pays a million bucks OEM win bonus. That doesn’t sound like something the riders would have no interest in.

Blaming Supercross is a modern-day crutch to deflect from the reality that GP riders simply caught up. And continuing to hide behind that excuse isn’t the way to change the situation.
Well said, though I doubt it’ll be received well 😂
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1/3/2022 1:31am
Okay so what's GBR excuse for not winning since 1994?

USA got beat at home by a 2 man team ... pssst dont start about excuses
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vet40
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GB
1/3/2022 3:10am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2022 3:12am
I think the MXGP series as a whole has surpassed the AMA in terms or depth of talent, track difficulty, rider speed, surface variety.

The USA is a huge country with a huge market, so big it can keep their most elite riders from competing globally.

But it’s this that is letting them down when it come to MXON, as this is the only time of the year they are truly competing globally.

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ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI US
1/3/2022 3:25am
I've said it before. There were times during that initial streak that our guys needed some luck to win . It's that streak however that inflated our ego as fans . I'm not going to even try to speak from the riders perspective but maybe it had a similar effect on some of them . In any case we're just another nation in the mix now no longer a favorite. Hopefully we can get our best riders out there hungry and get another win soon .
Vet57
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1/3/2022 3:47am
Just have a few of these to get "tuned up".....Lol

segers
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1/3/2022 4:41am
racerx217 wrote:
The answer to that is easy, if the Des Nations was a supercross there would be no one that could come close to catching us. We...
The answer to that is easy, if the Des Nations was a supercross there would be no one that could come close to catching us. We have gotten away from what MX really is and all of the places winning embrace it and don't worry about running races in stadiums. Its all about that almighty US dollar for everyone involved.
The french might disagree Wink
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SFellure33
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149
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Location
PA, PA US
1/3/2022 4:59am
Robgvx wrote:
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and...
Sorry, but I think blaming Supercross is such a poor excuse. The US had SX all the time the AMA were winning in the past and it didn’t affect the results. It was never mentioned once as a handicap before the AMA lost in 2012, and for years (decades?) was touted as the reason for American dominance.

US riders have a 12-round outdoor series to get up to speed. The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track.

The MXdN comes directly after the outdoors. It’s not like it’s in the middle of Supercross and requires switching around. It’s one extra race. And in terms of ‘being tired from a long season’, GP riders spend more time racing than AMA riders do if you consider that Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend. Is it really true that you can’t win in September because your first race in January was 21 days earlier than the European guys?

Ricky Carmichael has 7 MX and 5 SX titles, and 76 MX wins versus 48 SX wins (even though there are more SX races per season). That doesn’t portray MX as the secondary priority for the man you call the greatest rider of all time.

The AMA has an outdoor series that, according to what I’ve seen here, pays a million bucks OEM win bonus. That doesn’t sound like something the riders would have no interest in.

Blaming Supercross is a modern-day crutch to deflect from the reality that GP riders simply caught up. And continuing to hide behind that excuse isn’t the way to change the situation.
The following statements are incorrect

"The US teams have access to every bit of setup info from the GP teams, should they want to actually set their bikes up to work properly on an MXdN track."

"Supercross amounts to a five minute heat and a 15 minute final each weekend."
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PNWRider
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476
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Stanwood, WA US
1/3/2022 5:08am
WCRider wrote:
SX priority.
So you’re telling me from 2005-2011 we didn’t care about supercross? Shit, in 2005 our guys were even riding two strokes for half the year.
In 2005, like the 80’s, our top riders saw the MXdN as an honor and a way to repay the nation for their success…now they see it as a PITA that doesn’t pay them anything.

Doesn’t matter how fast they are, that’s a losing mindset.
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hylo
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NO
1/3/2022 5:35am
It fun to read the MXDN threads. It seems the euro vs us thing never dies. I think us top riders can run near or close to the front in some GPs. Lommel? Not so much.

Will a top twenty guy in the us be a top twenty guy in mxgp? Nah…

If you study maths pretty damn hard for 10 years you’ll be better in math than chemistry (didnt think of any other classes :laughSmile . Same goes for mx vs sx. Do one thing and the other one suffers..
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Motofinne
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FI
1/3/2022 5:59am
The major advantage USA has compared to all other countries is the population size. No matter what, you'll always have very good riders and a much deeper talent pool than any other country.

But any kind of major change wont happen if the US industry is stuck in the mindset that nothing can be done because SX is the priority.

Nobody that uses this excuse/explanation has ever shown me hard facts that would suggest 2021 is different to 2001 or 2011. The schedule is still the same, nothing has changed except SX futures amateur racing being introduced two years ago so that has had zero effect on anything yet.

I'll come back to my first point. USA has the biggest population, the deepest talent pool so if the US moto industry collectively decides to re-evaluate the situation and investigate what could be done better, the results would come eventually.
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