Team Orders??

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8/28/2017 6:49 AM

If I were Musquin or even Baggett, I would not be very happy with KTM to say the least. I understand team orders as they exist in all forms of motorsports so I was very surprised to see Herlings stay in front of Musquin..... especially in that final moto of the day where Herlings actually eliminated him from potentially winning the championship.

Musquin did his part for Dungey, I thought it was a real slap in the face by Roger to bring in Herlings and let him go 1:1.

Thoroughly enjoyed watching Herlings but what if Tomac's bike had grenaded in the closing laps of moto 2.....what a mess that would have been. Did Herlings ignore team orders or was the plan to let Herlings finish where he may? Very odd decision by an icon like Roger DeCoster with a potential championship on the line.

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8/28/2017 6:51 AM

Canadad wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett, I would not be very happy with KTM to say the least. I understand team orders as they exist in all forms of motorsports so I was very surprised to see Herlings stay in front of Musquin..... especially in that final moto of the day where Herlings actually eliminated him from potentially winning the championship.

Musquin did his part for Dungey, I thought it was a real slap in the face by Roger to bring in Herlings and let him go 1:1.

Thoroughly enjoyed watching Herlings but what if Tomac's bike had grenaded in the closing laps of moto 2.....what a mess that would have been. Did Herlings ignore team orders or was the plan to let Herlings finish where he may? Very odd decision by an icon like Roger DeCoster with a potential championship on the line.

Moosecan had a comfy 10 second lead and yarded it by himself. No amount of team orders can keep you on two wheels.

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Tomac and/or Anderson for 2020.....

8/28/2017 6:52 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 7:00 AM

Canadad wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett, I would not be very happy with KTM to say the least. I understand team orders as they exist in all forms of motorsports so I was very surprised to see Herlings stay in front of Musquin..... especially in that final moto of the day where Herlings actually eliminated him from potentially winning the championship.

Musquin did his part for Dungey, I thought it was a real slap in the face by Roger to bring in Herlings and let him go 1:1.

Thoroughly enjoyed watching Herlings but what if Tomac's bike had grenaded in the closing laps of moto 2.....what a mess that would have been. Did Herlings ignore team orders or was the plan to let Herlings finish where he may? Very odd decision by an icon like Roger DeCoster with a potential championship on the line.

well tomac probably wouldve wraped the title already in the first moto without herlings. So speaking of that he actually helped musquin.

....aand f*ck team orders

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8/28/2017 6:55 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 6:55 AM

What exactly did you want JH84 to do? Take ET3 out and then wrestle with him for several laps to keep him from racing?? The only chance MM or BB really had was for ET3 to have bike issues or a major crash. Team orders wouldn't have changed anything.

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8/28/2017 6:58 AM

Herlings basically giving the finger to team orders made me actually like the guy.

Team orders has no place in motorsports. Best rider should win - period.

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8/28/2017 7:00 AM

The championship is already over. There's absolutely no point talking about what if's, woulda, shoulda, coulda.

What if Musquin hadn't got injured?
What if Baggett didn't get injured?
What if Dungey hadn't retired?

2017 season is over the fat lady has sang.

Next up USGP, MXdN, winter, 2018 MX.

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"Sorry Goose, but it's time to buzz the tower."

8/28/2017 7:03 AM

Lets say Tomac's bike grenades in the final laps of moto 2 (it happens, just ask Mark Marquez this morning), Herlings wins ( I realize Musquin wadded but Herlings was not exactly in cruise control in 2nd backing up his teammate). How does Roger explain to the folks in Austria that he handed the championship to Kawasaki on a silver platter?

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8/28/2017 7:08 AM

Canadad wrote:

Lets say Tomac's bike grenades in the final laps of moto 2 (it happens, just ask Mark Marquez this morning), Herlings wins ( I realize Musquin wadded but Herlings was not exactly in cruise control in 2nd backing up his teammate). How does Roger explain to the folks in Austria that he handed the championship to Kawasaki on a silver platter?

Didn't happen, what's the point in arguing about something that didn't happen?

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"Nothing happens until something moves"

8/28/2017 7:08 AM

That would have been absolutely ridiculous if Herlings would have pulled over for Blake or Marvin. The kid came here with the intent of spanking some asses and that he did. Neither Blake or Marvin seemed to upset about it during the post race so why are you?

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8/28/2017 7:11 AM

Canadad wrote:

Lets say Tomac's bike grenades in the final laps of moto 2 (it happens, just ask Mark Marquez this morning), Herlings wins ( I realize Musquin wadded but Herlings was not exactly in cruise control in 2nd backing up his teammate). How does Roger explain to the folks in Austria that he handed the championship to Kawasaki on a silver platter?

How about "Sorry boss but my rider had the championship in the bag with a comfortable lead but threw it away at the last lap all on his own"?

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8/28/2017 7:14 AM

Photo

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8/28/2017 7:18 AM

Herlings was the only chance KTM had to affect the outcome, it almost worked, Tomac admitted it. If he had been unable to finish moto 1 either Musquin or Bagget would have gone into moto 2 with a legitimate chance and 2 other riders capable of putting Tomac back to at least 4th. No Herlings and Tomac would have been able to cruise around and lock it up, as he did after the fall. Herlings was a Hail Mary that didn't work. That's not to say that it was 100% planned to be, I doubt anyone talked Herlings into racing.

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8/28/2017 7:47 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 7:49 AM

Although I would tend to agree with that JH should have tried to help Musquin...Marvin wrecked his chances (no pun intended) in moto two. 10-sec lead over Herlings, and he falls. No amount of "team orders" will help that.

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8/28/2017 8:15 AM

If the team order were, "Herlings, get out front and make Tomac come after you. He'll ride over his head and crash out of the moto" then that sh*t almost worked.

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8/28/2017 8:42 AM

DoctorJD wrote:

If the team order were, "Herlings, get out front and make Tomac come after you. He'll ride over his head and crash out of the moto" then that sh*t almost worked.

Yep. And I'm inclined to think that was the extent of any "plan," to fluster Tomac into riding over his head and screwing up.

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8/28/2017 8:53 AM

Canadad wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett, I would not be very happy with KTM to say the least. I understand team orders as they exist in all forms of motorsports so I was very surprised to see Herlings stay in front of Musquin..... especially in that final moto of the day where Herlings actually eliminated him from potentially winning the championship.

Musquin did his part for Dungey, I thought it was a real slap in the face by Roger to bring in Herlings and let him go 1:1.

Thoroughly enjoyed watching Herlings but what if Tomac's bike had grenaded in the closing laps of moto 2.....what a mess that would have been. Did Herlings ignore team orders or was the plan to let Herlings finish where he may? Very odd decision by an icon like Roger DeCoster with a potential championship on the line.

If I were Musquin or even Baggett,I would not be happy with Myself! They had 12 rounds to get it done,just like everybody else!
Did Musquin ignore Rogers orders of,"YOU" need to finish first and not worry about anyone else!

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8/28/2017 9:07 AM

I don't think DeCoster had a say in this, His on air interview Moto 1, you could tell He was none to happy but was professional and didn't throw anyone under the bus.

End of story, nobody bought Monster energy drink or a Kawasaki because of Tomac's performance.

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8/28/2017 9:12 AM

If it were a tighter points race, I can see them giving JH the board to let Broc bye. But with the larger margin, there was no need for that. In fact, I was much more stoked to see them not do that, to just let them race as the sport is intended to be. Good on KTM for letting them all go WFO and let the results fall wherever they may.

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Die Antwoord

8/28/2017 9:13 AM

Ktm probably learned that you cant let teammates by for free points without backlash from the entire community

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2009 Kawasaki KX450F
2009 Kawasaki KX250F
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8/28/2017 9:17 AM

They lapped up to 18th place anyway, so if there was a last lap failure Eli would have still finished 17th whether he crossed the line or not.

Marvin realistically lost the title in Southwick with his crash out of second. Add those 22 points and he's the champ.

Blake lost the title in his crash with Anderson at Redbud. He was not able to ride to the level needed from there on out.

Ultimately Eli was the best guy through 24 Motos. It may not have been at the dominance level of what everyone expected after Supercross. But he got it done. Is the Champ, and team orders didn't play a factor in a 24 point margin.

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8/28/2017 11:04 AM

Herlings did exactly what he was supposed to do. He got Eli to race with him then hit the ground. Imagine if he tweaked the bike in that fall and finished around 20th place.

If anyone thinks that Herlings came over to race just for the fun of it, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

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8/28/2017 11:05 AM

Canadad wrote:

Lets say Tomac's bike grenades in the final laps of moto 2 (it happens, just ask Mark Marquez this morning), Herlings wins ( I realize Musquin wadded but Herlings was not exactly in cruise control in 2nd backing up his teammate). How does Roger explain to the folks in Austria that he handed the championship to Kawasaki on a silver platter?

Eli's bike wasn't going to grenade in moto 2. He was out there on a Sunday trail ride.

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8/28/2017 11:06 AM

KirkChandler wrote:

They lapped up to 18th place anyway, so if there was a last lap failure Eli would have still finished 17th whether he crossed the line or not.

Marvin realistically lost the title in Southwick with his crash out of second. Add those 22 points and he's the champ.

Blake lost the title in his crash with Anderson at Redbud. He was not able to ride to the level needed from there on out.

Ultimately Eli was the best guy through 24 Motos. It may not have been at the dominance level of what everyone expected after Supercross. But he got it done. Is the Champ, and team orders didn't play a factor in a 24 point margin.

Marv also had a brake issue that resulted in a DNF at Muddy Creek.

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8/28/2017 11:14 AM

While it is kind of dumb to speculate the what if's of this I do agree with the OP that it is stupid to bring Herlings in when the championship is still up in the air. It was a long shot but bikes blow up, run out of fuel, and they crash. If KTM would have lost this championship due to Herlings they would feel pretty stupid this morning.

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8/28/2017 11:16 AM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2017 11:18 AM

To be fair, there's some logic here that might have applied IF Herlings were actually on the same team as Musquin, to wit:

• In Moto 1, Herlings had every opportunity to hand the lead to Musquin.

• In Moto 2, even after Musquin's crash, Herlings still had time to hand the lead back to Musquin.

This is how professional racing works and should work, assuming they're actually teammates, but there're a couple considerations in play ...

• Herlings isn't part of the AMA Red Bull KTM team, and he doesn't give a shit what Decoster thinks. He didn't even look at the pit board. He's not even on the same Red Bull KTM team as Cairoli and Coldenhoff.

• Herlings ain't pulling over for anybody under any conditions. Anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know much about the Bullet.

So team orders were never in play here, even if they would have mattered, which, as others have pointed out, they didn't.

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F1. MotoGP. MXGP. Screw the rest.

8/28/2017 11:55 AM

GuyB wrote:

Marv also had a brake issue that resulted in a DNF at Muddy Creek.

True. But so did Tomac. Mechanical for mechanical.

Obviously the knee injury slowed him down as well, to the point of mentally being out of the championship. That's why the brake issue at Muddy Creek didn't seem like such a big issue, because he had already had 3 motos of bad results in a row.

The crash out of second place at Southwick is really the kicker in my opinion. That 22 points was within reach. It wasn't a first lap crash or a tangle with another rider that put him to the back, it was a self inflicted mistake. If Marvin would have been able to salvage a tenth or a fifteenth in that moto he would have kept it tighter, but because of the other issues earlier in the year he was as desperate. The title was mentally over before Southwick, even if it wasn't, Tomac was on a roll winning 6 motos and beyond his issues from Geln Helen and Colorado.

Tomac had many self inflicted mistakes that he was able to salvage better results from. His crash at Millville, at Mt Morris, or Thunder Valley could have been worse. Tomac was the better guy over 24 motos. He might not have been the best at the final round or at Unadilla, but he was the best overall.

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8/28/2017 12:23 PM

KirkChandler wrote:

True. But so did Tomac. Mechanical for mechanical.

Obviously the knee injury slowed him down as well, to the point of mentally being out of the championship. That's why the brake issue at Muddy Creek didn't seem like such a big issue, because he had already had 3 motos of bad results in a row.

The crash out of second place at Southwick is really the kicker in my opinion. That 22 points was within reach. It wasn't a first lap crash or a tangle with another rider that put him to the back, it was a self inflicted mistake. If Marvin would have been able to salvage a tenth or a fifteenth in that moto he would have kept it tighter, but because of the other issues earlier in the year he was as desperate. The title was mentally over before Southwick, even if it wasn't, Tomac was on a roll winning 6 motos and beyond his issues from Geln Helen and Colorado.

Tomac had many self inflicted mistakes that he was able to salvage better results from. His crash at Millville, at Mt Morris, or Thunder Valley could have been worse. Tomac was the better guy over 24 motos. He might not have been the best at the final round or at Unadilla, but he was the best overall.

Very good point about them both having front brake issues.. those 2 points Eli got at Glen Helen obviously didn't end up being the deciding factor but the fact he got those 2 points whereas his competition had the same issue and didn't finish shows me a lot of heart and says a lot about the guys character IMO.

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8/28/2017 12:38 PM

SwingHard wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett,I would not be happy with Myself! They had 12 rounds to get it done,just like everybody else!
Did Musquin ignore Rogers orders of,"YOU" need to finish first and not worry about anyone else!

Agreed, but racers race and managers manage...its Musquin's job to go out and win but it's Roger's job to put him in the best position to win a championship. Not sure this happened on the weekend. If he worked for me, we would be having a discussion today.

As it turns out, it didn't matter but I still question his decisions.

Congrats to Eli and Kawasaki on their championship.

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8/28/2017 3:00 PM

Canadad wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett, I would not be very happy with KTM to say the least. I understand team orders as they exist in all forms of motorsports so I was very surprised to see Herlings stay in front of Musquin..... especially in that final moto of the day where Herlings actually eliminated him from potentially winning the championship.

Musquin did his part for Dungey, I thought it was a real slap in the face by Roger to bring in Herlings and let him go 1:1.

Thoroughly enjoyed watching Herlings but what if Tomac's bike had grenaded in the closing laps of moto 2.....what a mess that would have been. Did Herlings ignore team orders or was the plan to let Herlings finish where he may? Very odd decision by an icon like Roger DeCoster with a potential championship on the line.

SwingHard wrote:

If I were Musquin or even Baggett,I would not be happy with Myself! They had 12 rounds to get it done,just like everybody else!
Did Musquin ignore Rogers orders of,"YOU" need to finish first and not worry about anyone else!

Canadad wrote:

Agreed, but racers race and managers manage...its Musquin's job to go out and win but it's Roger's job to put him in the best position to win a championship. Not sure this happened on the weekend. If he worked for me, we would be having a discussion today.

As it turns out, it didn't matter but I still question his decisions.

Congrats to Eli and Kawasaki on their championship.

I get what your saying! I think you would agree,Roger has put Musquin in the best position to win. He's put him on the best (possibly) bike out there. Hired the best trainer in the business to train him. Surrounded him with a group of guys that know how to win Championships. Not only Musquin but,I believe a few of these "Factory" guys need to be reminded of this sometimes.

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8/28/2017 4:21 PM

I find it interesting how different people can see the same situation differently.

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

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