Starts: Bogle vs Tomac

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7/28/2018 8:31 PM

Serious question: Someone help me to understand how Bogle can consistently pull hole shots while Tomac, who by every other measure is a freak of nature and world class on a dirt bike, consistently finds himself in 6th-10th a 1/2 lap in despite usually qualifying in the top 2 or 3?

I’m not sure which is more baffling, the fact Bogle is able to pull hole shots like it’s nothing then proceeding to drop back mid-pack, or Tomac, who with an exception of Herlings, is on another level right now, still can’t seem to consistently find himself in the top 5 rounding the first turn.

Please don’t misinterpret this as anti-Tomac or hating. I’m a massive ET3 fan I’m just baffled how he can’t seem to figure out starts? Thankfully he’s able to overcome the majority of the time and it actually makes for a more exciting race. I just hope it doesn’t turn out to be his kryptnite come time for MXON as I fear spotting a rider like Herlings 10secs may not end so well.

Interested to hear folks thoughts.

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7/28/2018 9:07 PM

I think it all boils down to confidence
Bogle is very confident that he'll get the start
Tomac is very confident that he doesn't need the start

I wouldn't know though, I raced from age 7 to 25 and I can remember any holeshot I ever got haha

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why am I reading this? ..... Oh christ, now I'm posting...... shiiiiiiiit!!

7/28/2018 9:09 PM

DC pays tomac to start in 10th to make it interesting.

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7/28/2018 9:22 PM

Bogle has always been a good starter. Tomac hasn't.

Some people are just better at that part of racing, like some are better at whoops, corners, scrubbing.

Not often someone is the best at everything.

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Cheers, Crush
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7/28/2018 9:33 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/29/2018 9:08 AM

Crush wrote:

Bogle has always been a good starter. Tomac hasn't.

Some people are just better at that part of racing, like some are better ...more

That’s completely fair and probably spot on. This is why i was asking because as someone who just started riding again(at a D level) it feels like starts would be one of the easier things to master(with someone like Tomac who’s literally done it thousands of times). My simple, uninformed brain thinks “isn’t it pretty much just holding it wide open and letting your hole shot device and start controls do most the work with some reaction time sprinkled on top? Just seems like if you could master all the other insanely technical aspects of MX starts would eventually come but i may be naive.

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7/28/2018 9:43 PM

One thing to consider is that Bogle might be setting his bike up to get the start. So it might be great to the first turn but isn’t as good through the track. Shorty use to say that is how he’d set his bike up towards the end of his career and then he’d just make do on the rest of the track.

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7/28/2018 10:07 PM

Crush wrote:

Bogle has always been a good starter. Tomac hasn't.

Some people are just better at that part of racing, like some are better ...more

HusqFan3 wrote:

That’s completely fair and probably spot on. This is why i was asking because as someone who just started riding again(at a D ...more

Yeah they're all their own skillset I guess. But as much as these guys practice so much would go into it... let alone a racer's confidence. These guys's reactions are all close, but you've got technique, confidence, traction differences, ability to manipulate the traction, horsepower and timing... Starts are way more complicated than some people think but for some it's easy, some it's not.

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Cheers, Crush
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7/28/2018 10:11 PM

HusqFan3 wrote:

Serious question: Someone help me to understand how Bogle can consistently pull hole shots while Tomac, who by every other ...more

Good point but ET seems to be a much better starter on the steal grates, like the ones they had in SX. With that being said, the mxon should have the grates, he got good starts in the gp's he raced in the past using the grates. Fingers crossed!

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7/28/2018 10:13 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/28/2018 10:17 PM

HusqFan3 wrote:

That’s completely fair and probably spot on. This is why i was asking because as someone who just started riding again(at a D ...more

If Tomac got them all, then we could argue why doesn’t Ken or Marv or Barcia ever get the start. If it’s that easy for one it should be that easy for all, right? But someone has to come out first.
Some guys are just natural starters and some guys aren’t. When you’re on the line with a bunch of professionals, its not easy to get every holeshot no matter who you are. What Bogle does is impressive. Sometimes you get in a groove with the setup of your bike and how it starts, much like Andrew Short did that year on Hondas when he was doing 3rd gear starts and holeshotting all season.

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7/28/2018 10:18 PM

Crush wrote:

Bogle has always been a good starter. Tomac hasn't.

Some people are just better at that part of racing, like some are better ...more

HusqFan3 wrote:

That’s completely fair and probably spot on. This is why i was asking because as someone who just started riding again(at a D ...more

It makes it a little harder when the 39 people next to you have also done literally 1,000s of starts

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7/29/2018 12:23 AM

Bogle practices starts more because he's not going to win or finish at the top without a good one, especially right now with being behind physically after his injury. Even before I imagine he spent more time on them, even with having the speed to win he wasn't going to do it from a 5th place start.

I would say Tomac's ability and confidence in being the fastest person alive he devotes less time doing starts and more in fine tuning his speed and fitness. As mentioned above he probably sets his bike up for pounding laps and Bogle focuses his on starts. No need to waste time on starts when you can turn laps 4 seconds faster than anyone, just do well enough for wins to be manageable. You can devote all your time on starts everyday and never get a decent one.

This is a guess and it's what I did as a kid. I never practiced starts and I was terrible at them but it didn't matter because I had the speed to win anyway. I paid for this many times when I'd race big amateur races, kids I'd beat at a local races would be up front and I'd be buried behind 40 riders. I screwed up, Eli doesn't have this problem.

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7/29/2018 12:53 AM

Mmm if I was Mr Kawasaki ( team manager) I would have breaking down starts into individual components and then get an ex rider (MC - brand ambassador??) as well as a sports psychologist working with Eli to improve his starts, imagine what he could do with a good start???

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Now a member of the Orange brigade

7/29/2018 1:28 AM

3rd gear.

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7/29/2018 3:01 AM

jemcee wrote:

I think it all boils down to confidence
Bogle is very confident that he'll get the start
Tomac is very confident that he ...more

good spin on that

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7/29/2018 3:38 AM

Herlings has the same problem with the starts, so Tomac doesn't have to worry about it.
I remember Everts had a period of really bad starts before his absolute dominance in the GP' s.
Maybe it's a learing curve they have to take.
But let's be fair if Tomac and Herlings take both every race the hole shot it's getting very boring to watch.

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7/29/2018 4:53 AM

MohMoto14 wrote:

Bogle practices starts more because he's not going to win or finish at the top without a good one, especially right now with ...more

Bogle has alway been a good starter... I don't know if he practices them more or not, who would. But he's always been good out the gate in his pro career, results or not.

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Cheers, Crush
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7/29/2018 5:03 AM

Reaction time + technique + confidence.

A guy that knows he can’t win a race still knows he can beat anybody to the first corner.

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GP740
Since 1987

7/29/2018 6:28 AM

Bogle has the confidence and knows every time he lines up he can get the holeshot. It's not so much about technique as it is confidence. Obviously his technique works for him.Doing his exact same technique doesn't mean you will get a good start. The more he holeshots the more that confidence grows. Just gets to a point where no matter what he knows he can get a good start.

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7/29/2018 6:54 AM

The red plate is heavy and it makes Tomac's bike too slow.

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7/29/2018 9:00 AM

Didn't Bogle work on his starts with Alessi on starts? I seem to recall that, might be wrong.

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7/29/2018 9:15 AM
Edited Date/Time: 7/29/2018 9:17 AM

Crush wrote:

Bogle has always been a good starter. Tomac hasn't.

Some people are just better at that part of racing, like some are better ...more

HusqFan3 wrote:

That’s completely fair and probably spot on. This is why i was asking because as someone who just started riding again(at a D ...more

zookrider62! wrote:

It makes it a little harder when the 39 people next to you have also done literally 1,000s of starts

True but those 39 other people have also done every other aspect of racing thousands of times and that hasn’t stopped him from dominating them virtually everywhere else. Further, those 39 other people also don’t have first or 2nd gate pick. That said, i get your point. By no means was i suggesting it should be “easy” for him to hole shot every time. Just surprised he’s not at least in top 5 consonaotently give a) he usually has first gate pick and b) he’s clearly mastered just about every other aspect of racing a dirt bike.

I was mostly just curious if anyone has every taken the time to break down the film to see exactly which technica aspect(s) of starts he struggles with compared to a rider like Bogle. i.e what exactly is it that Justin doing that Eli isn’t...

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7/29/2018 9:29 AM

Back when Carmichael was racing I remember answering a question somewhere about his supercross setup where he said he was having to sacrifice some get up and go off the start for his bike to be where he wanted it to be for the rest of the track. I would assume if you’re as fast as Tomac you would prefer the rest of the track speed over the start, so I think at least a decent portion of it is bike setup.

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7/29/2018 11:14 AM

alex69 wrote:

Herlings has the same problem with the starts, so Tomac doesn't have to worry about it.
I remember Everts had a period of ...more

Couldn’t agree more with the last part of your statement. That’s why while I’m curious to understand the underlying issue/reason(s), I’m not necessarily rooting for him to correct(save for MXoN). My 3 or 4 favorite motos of the year have all been when I’ve thought “ok this time he’s too far back and it’s going to bite him” and then he proceeds to prove me wrong. So while perplexing, also adds a bit of intrigue/excitement to the race.

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7/29/2018 1:52 PM

I hope Tomac never figures out starts. Or else, the races would be super boring...he'd be a minute ahead of everyone else and lapping up to fifth tongue

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BT20 👉 02/20/20 👉#TICKLETIMEBITCHES

7/29/2018 1:54 PM

I wanna throw a shout-out to Bogle for the first 10 min of the first moto. Once he's fully back into shape he is Def a podium threat.

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7/30/2018 3:58 AM

It took RPM leds to front fender before Herlings could take consistant top5 starts. Not sure why Tomac is not using it, they must know anyway what is best RPM after practice starts for track they are racing. Little off and you need to balance bike or left behind.
I agree it makes racing little more interesting when he starts from 10 place.. how long it will take before he passed all riders to take lead.

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7/30/2018 12:01 PM

i don't understand how Bogle doesn't have the mental wherewithal to do well due to his concussions, but still has the confidence and reaction times to rip holeshots.

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7/30/2018 12:51 PM

A few facts here.
1. Bogle rarely practices starts. He doesn't need to. He knows that he can get a holeshot about 50% of the time he lines up.
2. You are either a good starter or you are not. If you're a bad starter you can work to make them better but they will never become supper consistent and dependable. History shows this both in amateurs and pros.
3. Eli is a freak and can depend on that ability to get the job done.
4. If Bogle wasn't still dealing with some lingering issues form the SX injury he would be on the podium all the time with the starts he is getting lately.
5. When did getting a concussion and taking the necessary time to heal have an effect on anything?

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7/30/2018 1:07 PM

Tyler will tell you the Suzuki is faster

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Take it to the limit, one more time!

7/30/2018 2:10 PM

731chopper wrote:

One thing to consider is that Bogle might be setting his bike up to get the start. So it might be great to the first turn but ...more

I think you nailed it. Mike Alessi notoriously set his bike up literally just for starts alone. He setup everything on his bike geared for the start since he wasn't going to win or really even do good at all so he knew he could at least snag a ton of holeshot checks and get tv time damn near every race which undoubtably extended his career on those lower tier teams. If he was just getting 10th place every race he would have been out of the sport a loooot earlier than he was, but since he always started at the front thats a lot of tv time for him and his team so that absolutely kept him around in the sport much longer than he should have.

I have a feeling Bogle is doing the same thing right now. Since he knows hes on pretty thin ice and needs to make someee kind of an impact right now or he may not have a ride, I have a feeling hes geared his bike just for starts so he can lead like every race for a little bit and get him and his team on tv. Hes been fading really bad but its definitely a better look for his team to holeshot and lead the start of every race than whatever those other guys are getting who are actually finishing better than him but you dont see them or arent amazed at them getting the holeshot every race so nobodys talking about them. Its definitely working in his favor. Also it gives people hope that since he can pull the holeshots every race and hes kind of been staying up there longer, he can sell the idea that eventually as he gets stronger he can last longer and longer. Hes already out front and as he gets stronger hell stay there longer and eventually finish up close to the front or maybe even win. It wouldnt be too hard of a sell to say that to teams and it may get him a ride next year.

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