Star Yamaha 250 against 450s

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10/14/2020 10:46 AM

With how powerful the 250s are and how unliked the yz450s are at the pro level, why not run the 250?

If They’re really already in the 50+up range, they could even develop a 270 kit since they aren’t limited to 250ccs at that point.

I can’t imagine it would really hold them back that much.

Cooper Webb went from being one of the most fluid and aggressive 250 sx riders with lap times faster than most 450s to a timid slow barely in top 10s on the blue 450.

Put him on the 250 against the 450s and he’d be carving and riding his ass off.

Give up a bit on the start and gain the entire rest of the race I’d bet.

Those star bikes get such good starts also, not even sure it would give much up, but could be entirely wrong as I’m sure will be pointed out.

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10/14/2020 11:00 AM

Does anyone really go faster on a 250 with equal track conditions? Do 250s ever go after 450s when the tracks are more chewed up (honest question)?

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10/14/2020 11:00 AM

Get destroyed on the start. And even if your laps times are as fast or faster on an empty track or in qualifying conditions, that doesn't mean squat when you can't make passes because you are getting pulled out of every corner and eating rocks in real race conditions.

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Powerband in every gear !

10/14/2020 11:01 AM

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our premier class bike doesn't cut it

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10/14/2020 11:07 AM

crusty_xx wrote:

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our ...more

Or we race our 250s against 450s because our 250s are that good.

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10/14/2020 11:10 AM

The factory wouldn't go for it. They want to sell their most-expensive product, so the 450 is the thing they will advertise.

A talented rider could make it happen, but on the whole riders would be at a disadvantage on 250Fs Vs. 450s in the pro class.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

10/14/2020 11:13 AM

Marketing honestly. To put both machines against each other like that and if the 250 is inherently better, that is less 450s sold (only to the group of people who only buy bikes off the results of racing, which makes no sense). McElrath ran a 250 in 2018 or 2019 at Daytona supercross and got like 10th or something. Not bad, but all he did was beat privateers. Motocross, it would be a huge defecit, Redbud for example. Hitting the leap was easy for the factory 450s. Only the star yamahas did the leap for the most part but had to be perfect.

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Gone:
2006 CRF230F
2008 KTM 200 XC
2017 KTM 250 SX
2019 CRF250R
Current: 2021 YZ250F

10/14/2020 11:16 AM

crusty_xx wrote:

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our ...more

yz133rider wrote:

Or we race our 250s against 450s because our 250s are that good.

Except that their 250 is likely a significantly less profitable bike than the 450, given that they are selling basically the platform, suspension, componentry in a slightly smaller displacement at $1100 less.

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10/14/2020 11:18 AM

yz133rider wrote:

With how powerful the 250s are and how unliked the yz450s are at the pro level, why not run the 250?

If They’re really ...more

Then they might as well just not sell a 450. Keep in mind, the YZ450 is one of the best selling, if not the best selling of all the 450's. No way they would jeopardize that. Winning sells bikes and even without winning that bike is selling because it's so good as an overall package.

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10/14/2020 11:23 AM

crusty_xx wrote:

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our ...more

yz133rider wrote:

Or we race our 250s against 450s because our 250s are that good.

Makes you wonder how good a yz350f could be given it acted like the 250 with a little more grunt.

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10/14/2020 11:26 AM

While I get the argument about profits and not wanting to discount your "premier" bike, what if 450cc isn't the optimal size for the sport? Yamaha was at the forefront of modern 4 stroke development. Maybe they should look at smaller displacement as a premier machine? Utilize the development rule (is that still a thing?) and bring out a 350 or 300 version of the 250 chassis. As you look at other Motorsports development, you see some forms scaling back to 4 or 6 cylinder engines instead of 8. I think the key is optimization. I feel like many could/would argue that 450 is too "big" for supercross... maybe the time is now to take the next step forward in 4 stroke evolution?

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10/14/2020 11:35 AM

There is a big difference between riding a 250 on a track with other 250s vs a 250 on a track with a 450. To produce a fast lap on a 250 you need to keep corner speed real high a 450 can get in the way of that and run away on corner exit.

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10/14/2020 11:36 AM

ga_pike wrote:

While I get the argument about profits and not wanting to discount your "premier" bike, what if 450cc isn't the optimal size ...more

LOL. As if any of the OEMs care about finding the best engine configuration for the sport.

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10/14/2020 12:10 PM

Buckland wrote:

Does anyone really go faster on a 250 with equal track conditions? Do 250s ever go after 450s when the tracks are more chewed ...more

Sure seems like it especially when the tracks are rough and the 450s tire the riders out. 250 riders are still sending it and can push to the end much harder.

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10/14/2020 12:14 PM

Most of the success the Star Yamaha's is the riders. Believe what you want but I'd be highly surprised if they put out any more HP than the factory Kaw, KTM, etc.

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10/14/2020 12:31 PM

ga_pike wrote:

While I get the argument about profits and not wanting to discount your "premier" bike, what if 450cc isn't the optimal size ...more

Don't yamaha 250 and 450 bikes have identical frames already?

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10/14/2020 12:32 PM

yz133rider wrote:

With how powerful the 250s are and how unliked the yz450s are at the pro level, why not run the 250?

If They’re really ...more

Would get destroyed off the start and would be impossible to pass someone who can take insides and still pull you coming out of corners.

Also putting a 270cc kit on the bike would be illegal since you have to run stock bore and stroke from the factory

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10/14/2020 12:35 PM

Ingjr1 wrote:

Most of the success the Star Yamaha's is the riders. Believe what you want but I'd be highly surprised if they put out any ...more

I don't doubt that they make the most power of the class, but I don't think it's a huge gap like some believe.

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10/14/2020 12:57 PM

Ingjr1 wrote:

Most of the success the Star Yamaha's is the riders. Believe what you want but I'd be highly surprised if they put out any ...more

darkbelow13 wrote:

I don't doubt that they make the most power of the class, but I don't think it's a huge gap like some believe.

It can't be the 7hp that I've heard. If that was the case, the engine builders for the other teams need a bitch slapping.

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10/14/2020 1:07 PM

crusty_xx wrote:

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our ...more

yz133rider wrote:

Or we race our 250s against 450s because our 250s are that good.

numbers wrote:

Makes you wonder how good a yz350f could be given it acted like the 250 with a little more grunt.

Every time I ride my 350sxf I have this thought...if only I could have that engine in my blue 250f chassis, I'd be set for life

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10/14/2020 2:17 PM

crusty_xx wrote:

That would be quite powerful advertising by Yamaha.

We let our top rider compete on a smaller displacement bike because our ...more

yz133rider wrote:

Or we race our 250s against 450s because our 250s are that good.

Dirty Points wrote:

Except that their 250 is likely a significantly less profitable bike than the 450, given that they are selling basically the ...more

True, less initial profit per unit, but I am quite sure the sales volumes are higher in the 250 class (twice bigger i believe, which also brings more economy of scale on the engine). Also, the lifecycle maintenance cost is higher so overall I think the 250f makes similar if not more profits to the manufacturers.

Anyway, about the OP's idea, the problem would be to get starts, because starting P15 in the 450 field is not a good recipe unless it is written Tomac or Herlings on the jersey.

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10/14/2020 3:51 PM

^ Unless Yamaha is different from most manufacturers, the 450s outsell the 250s by a considerable margin.

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Braaapin' aint easy.

10/14/2020 3:57 PM

I've no doubt...that Star will figure it all out. Factory Yamaha got closer this season. Things can only get better.

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10/14/2020 4:01 PM

no matter how good the 250 is, they will still get smoked by 450s on the start and a few other areas, I bet Shorty’s 350 had more power than 250s back in the day and how did that work out?

But most of all, people don’t realize that factories race as way to sell bikes, not just to win races
As others have pointed out, imagine how shit it would look if Yamaha basically admitted that their 450 was shit, so they had to race their 250

Note* their 450 is obviously a very good production bike, but evidently it has some issues as a race bike at the professional level

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10/14/2020 4:13 PM

What about when 250s ride with 450s at MXDN? Is there something different at those races that would not make that a valid comparison?

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10/14/2020 4:22 PM

Yamaha does make a 250 2 stroke!

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Current rides: 2021 TM 144, 2008 YZ250

10/14/2020 4:51 PM

Buckland wrote:

Does anyone really go faster on a 250 with equal track conditions? Do 250s ever go after 450s when the tracks are more chewed ...more

look at the mxdesnations results from red bud. maybe it was tire differences, but your guys got beat by at least one 250, in a deep sand track.

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10/14/2020 4:55 PM

MPJC wrote:

Yamaha does make a 250 2 stroke!

Yeah the star Yamaha 250f is smoking the 250 2 stroke by a large margin

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10/14/2020 5:06 PM

Buckland wrote:

Does anyone really go faster on a 250 with equal track conditions? Do 250s ever go after 450s when the tracks are more chewed ...more

I do..

450's are too fast for me.. i ride 25+ B...i lose the connected feeling i have on my built 250f...

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10/14/2020 5:47 PM

dirtworldmx wrote:

I've no doubt...that Star will figure it all out. Factory Yamaha got closer this season. Things can only get better.

Who would down vote this.

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