Southwick 250/450 Laptimes.

peltier626
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peltier626
Top 3 from each class in both moto's 1 and 2 averaged.
250's = 216.325
450's = 217.771
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peltier626
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peltier626 7/1/2019 4:10pm
7/1/2019 4:10pm
450's moto 1 top 3 average = 216.682
250's moto 2 top 3 average = 217.588
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byke
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byke 7/1/2019 4:21pm
7/1/2019 4:21pm
I think what we're seeing is a symptom of not having more classes. The smaller bikes used to be a stepping stone, but with so much talent these days it's not so much a premiere class and a lesser class, it's closer to being "the same but different" than it's ever been. We need a third class.
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HusqFan3
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HusqFan3 7/1/2019 4:26pm
7/1/2019 4:26pm Edited Date/Time 7/1/2019 8:30pm
chad_111 wrote:
The 250’s also average a smoother track
This isn’t anything new/surprising. At High point the 250’s went 2nd yet both qualifying times(slightly under +/- .5sec) and lap times(slightly higher +/- .5sec) were similar.

Show me a race where there was more 2sec differences between top riders in class irrespective of starting order. Not saying going 2nd isn’t a detriment/more difficult as it obviously is. Just saying it’s not the end all, be all explanation otherwise we’d Expect to see 5-10sec gaps when 250’s go last a couple times a year(btw, would love to know the reasoning as to why the starting order(250/450)gets flipped seemingly a random but that’s another discussion).

To me this proves one thing and one thing only, Results are 95% rider and 5% bike.
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FerCzD
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FerCzD 7/1/2019 6:03pm
7/1/2019 6:03pm
Is it more difficult to spin faster laps on the 450 than a 250? Require more technique, fitness, etc? Any A rider in here that can share some insight...
bvm111
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bvm111 7/1/2019 6:11pm
7/1/2019 6:11pm
More momentum through the turns due to less power/ torque. This is nothing new ... ask Jonny O how he did it on a 125 and passed all the 500s at MXdN in what was it 85? 86?
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kevin204
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kevin204 7/1/2019 6:19pm
7/1/2019 6:19pm
The track was slower every moto. It's a sand track. It's not rocket science.
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bama205
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bama205 7/1/2019 6:26pm
7/1/2019 6:26pm Edited Date/Time 7/1/2019 6:27pm
At monster mountain on a private track I was faster on a 250f than 450. And that’s a fast track. I was a Mid pack LL B class rider at the time.
Superdave19
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Superdave19 7/1/2019 6:56pm
7/1/2019 6:56pm Edited Date/Time 7/1/2019 7:00pm
IMO, the premier class is more about being able to hang on to a beast instead of a pony.. No disrespect, several lites phenons and champions never find the same success in the big bike class.
SEMAC
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SEMAC 7/1/2019 6:59pm
7/1/2019 6:59pm
I am sure Tomac would have faster lap times on a 250F than his 450,and the smaller Bikes Also sound better
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sandtrack315
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sandtrack315 7/2/2019 3:29am
7/2/2019 3:29am
The track is always rougher, but it is also harder to pump a 450 through all the rollers at southwick and ride super aggressively. I think technique and not getting fatigued is more important than horsepower at southwick.
Jeff_Crutcher 7/2/2019 4:42am
7/2/2019 4:42am
FerCzD wrote:
Is it more difficult to spin faster laps on the 450 than a 250? Require more technique, fitness, etc? Any A rider in here that can...
Is it more difficult to spin faster laps on the 450 than a 250? Require more technique, fitness, etc? Any A rider in here that can share some insight...
What’s heavier, 200 lbs or 220 lbs? It’s that simple. I don’t touch 450’s with a ten foot pole anymore. Way too much bike. Waaaaaaaaay too much.
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steed 2.0
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steed 2.0 7/2/2019 5:05am
7/2/2019 5:05am
peltier626 wrote:
Top 3 from each class in both moto's 1 and 2 averaged.
250's = 216.325
450's = 217.771

Nothing new here... last week there was a similar discussion downhere ( MXGP Latvia ) and sometimes the 250 times are faster in supercross as well... more horse power is not always an advantage.
wolf918
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wolf918 7/2/2019 5:19am
7/2/2019 5:19am
As Jeff emig said, the 250f is the perfect mx/sx weapon.

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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 7/2/2019 5:35am
7/2/2019 5:35am
peltier626 wrote:
250 moto 2 winner = 216.944
450 moto 1 winner = 216.032
OK so you ride the 250 then and give up a second a lap. Problem solved.
resetjet
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resetjet 7/2/2019 6:13am
7/2/2019 6:13am
Factory 250’s are darn near a stock 450.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 7/2/2019 5:09pm
7/2/2019 5:09pm
250 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 38.691 sec
450 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 51.928 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the first moto’s 13.237 quicker than the 450’s

250 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 9.506 sec
450 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 11.500 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the second moto’s 1.904 seconds quicker than the 450’s

Seems like a pretty insignificant difference as to which bike your running if your one of the well trained top pro’s.

So why separate them into their own classes?


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Ebs
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Ebs 7/2/2019 6:10pm
7/2/2019 6:10pm
bvm111 wrote:
More momentum through the turns due to less power/ torque. This is nothing new ... ask Jonny O how he did it on a 125 and...
More momentum through the turns due to less power/ torque. This is nothing new ... ask Jonny O how he did it on a 125 and passed all the 500s at MXdN in what was it 85? 86?

RV smoked everybody in '07 at mxdn on a 250f. I think he won both motos by damn near a minute. Legendary.
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mx617
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mx617 7/2/2019 7:45pm
7/2/2019 7:45pm
byke wrote:
I think what we're seeing is a symptom of not having more classes. The smaller bikes used to be a stepping stone, but with so much...
I think what we're seeing is a symptom of not having more classes. The smaller bikes used to be a stepping stone, but with so much talent these days it's not so much a premiere class and a lesser class, it's closer to being "the same but different" than it's ever been. We need a third class.
I think it's just a symptom of the motor not being a limiting factor any more. The 250 provides 99% of the Power one can use and the 450 provides 120% off the Power one can use. The suspension, traction, g forces, etc and how the rider adapts to them are what limit the speed of any given rider.
FortyHat
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FortyHat 7/2/2019 9:38pm
7/2/2019 9:38pm
wolf918 wrote:
As Jeff emig said, the 250f is the perfect mx/sx weapon.
Maybe, but if there was a 350 version of the current KX450 (which I own), I think that would be perfect. I'm sure many KTM owners are clearing their throats, and I don't blame them.

I think a lot of it depends on the track. There is a local one here that is so tight that I'm faster on a 125 than 450.
FortyHat
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FortyHat 7/2/2019 10:23pm
7/2/2019 10:23pm
OldYZRider1 wrote:
250 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 38.691 sec 450 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min...
250 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 38.691 sec
450 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 51.928 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the first moto’s 13.237 quicker than the 450’s

250 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 9.506 sec
450 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 11.500 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the second moto’s 1.904 seconds quicker than the 450’s

Seems like a pretty insignificant difference as to which bike your running if your one of the well trained top pro’s.

So why separate them into their own classes?


Maybe, maybe not. Total race time is simply measuring the last non-lapped rider, who could be meandering around the track at who knows what pace at that point. Tough to draw a strong conclusion from that by itself. It does tell us a similar story as the top 3 avg lap times though - the classes are close at the top.
FI2T
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FI2T 7/3/2019 12:04am
7/3/2019 12:04am
We are getting hosed! Really so are the Riders! The best should race the best. They should also get paid more.
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OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 7/3/2019 6:59pm
7/3/2019 6:59pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2019 5:47am
OldYZRider1 wrote:
250 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 38.691 sec 450 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min...
250 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 38.691 sec
450 moto 1: total race time for 16 laps was 36 min 51.928 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the first moto’s 13.237 quicker than the 450’s

250 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 9.506 sec
450 moto 2: total race time for 15 laps was 35 min 11.500 sec

Summary: 250’s completed the second moto’s 1.904 seconds quicker than the 450’s

Seems like a pretty insignificant difference as to which bike your running if your one of the well trained top pro’s.

So why separate them into their own classes?


FortyHat wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Total race time is simply measuring the last non-lapped rider, who could be meandering around the track at who knows what pace at...
Maybe, maybe not. Total race time is simply measuring the last non-lapped rider, who could be meandering around the track at who knows what pace at that point. Tough to draw a strong conclusion from that by itself. It does tell us a similar story as the top 3 avg lap times though - the classes are close at the top.
I look at the posted race time from the AMA transponders thats measured from the drop of the gate till when the winner takes the checkered flag; no meandering riders. I tend to feel this is a really good measure of how the bikes compare over the course of the entire moto. It doesn’t always work out that you can directly compare the two classes as they don’t always run the same number of laps and rain can make the comparisons invalid. But when they run similar laps with no unusual weather, I think it can be a reasonable comparison.

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