Someone needs to ask the question

hartebreak
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hartebreak
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 8:49am
So Dungey is on KTM, the bike he is riding is completely new, and he is looking good on it. What I would like to ask him or Roger is if the 350 ever even came up in discussion. Last year with Shorty coming on he and Roger both said Andrew had the choice between the 350 and 450 and if memory serves me right Andrew said something like "the 350 was just so good that I never even tried the 450". Fast forward 6 months and Alessi jumped on the 450 for nationals with full knowledge (according to Tony via the hippy and the hick show) that KTM was not going to develop that 450 any further than it was. Obviously looking back KTM knew they had this new 450 in the works so they didnt want to waste resources developing the old bike. So when KTM was negotiating with Dungey do you think they even brought up the 350? Roger all along has said the 350 is great but he is being paid to say that. In my opinion talk about the 350 never even left Rogers lips and even if it did I doubt Dungey would have even considered it. Anyone think that Dungey had to make a choice between bikes?
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machine
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machine 10/9/2011 7:11pm
10/9/2011 7:11pm
Very good question. I have a feeling none who "really" knows will spill the beans though.
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GuyB 10/9/2011 7:16pm
10/9/2011 7:16pm
It is a good question.

Just guessing? A new 450 (instead of a 350 or the initial 450) was part of the lure to getting him to commit.
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redalert144 10/9/2011 7:18pm
10/9/2011 7:18pm
hartebreak wrote:
So Dungey is on KTM, the bike he is riding is completely new, and he is looking good on it. What I would like to ask...
So Dungey is on KTM, the bike he is riding is completely new, and he is looking good on it. What I would like to ask him or Roger is if the 350 ever even came up in discussion. Last year with Shorty coming on he and Roger both said Andrew had the choice between the 350 and 450 and if memory serves me right Andrew said something like "the 350 was just so good that I never even tried the 450". Fast forward 6 months and Alessi jumped on the 450 for nationals with full knowledge (according to Tony via the hippy and the hick show) that KTM was not going to develop that 450 any further than it was. Obviously looking back KTM knew they had this new 450 in the works so they didnt want to waste resources developing the old bike. So when KTM was negotiating with Dungey do you think they even brought up the 350? Roger all along has said the 350 is great but he is being paid to say that. In my opinion talk about the 350 never even left Rogers lips and even if it did I doubt Dungey would have even considered it. Anyone think that Dungey had to make a choice between bikes?
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great bike and prolly can turn times comparable with a 450. The big difference is starts and lines in the corners. 350 is not going to get as good starts and its lines are more sweeping in the corners unlike the 450s more point and shoot. We call it diamonding corners in dirt track racing but that is a 450 line, and when lines are already cut that do that, its not working to the 350s strengths.

My point being that if all things being equal(fresh track for personal use) the 350/450 are very comparable if not the 350 being better. But once you add a full gate of 450 lines and getting burned by 450s off the start the pendulum starts to swing to the 450
machine
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machine 10/9/2011 7:19pm
10/9/2011 7:19pm
GuyB wrote:
It is a good question. Just guessing? A new 450 (instead of a 350 or the initial 450) was part of the lure to getting him...
It is a good question.

Just guessing? A new 450 (instead of a 350 or the initial 450) was part of the lure to getting him to commit.
So in order for them(KTM) to know that they needed that as a lure, there must have been conversations about it and RD told them that would be what it wold take, other than the moola.

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hartebreak
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hartebreak 10/9/2011 7:20pm
10/9/2011 7:20pm
hartebreak wrote:
So Dungey is on KTM, the bike he is riding is completely new, and he is looking good on it. What I would like to ask...
So Dungey is on KTM, the bike he is riding is completely new, and he is looking good on it. What I would like to ask him or Roger is if the 350 ever even came up in discussion. Last year with Shorty coming on he and Roger both said Andrew had the choice between the 350 and 450 and if memory serves me right Andrew said something like "the 350 was just so good that I never even tried the 450". Fast forward 6 months and Alessi jumped on the 450 for nationals with full knowledge (according to Tony via the hippy and the hick show) that KTM was not going to develop that 450 any further than it was. Obviously looking back KTM knew they had this new 450 in the works so they didnt want to waste resources developing the old bike. So when KTM was negotiating with Dungey do you think they even brought up the 350? Roger all along has said the 350 is great but he is being paid to say that. In my opinion talk about the 350 never even left Rogers lips and even if it did I doubt Dungey would have even considered it. Anyone think that Dungey had to make a choice between bikes?
redalert144 wrote:
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great...
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great bike and prolly can turn times comparable with a 450. The big difference is starts and lines in the corners. 350 is not going to get as good starts and its lines are more sweeping in the corners unlike the 450s more point and shoot. We call it diamonding corners in dirt track racing but that is a 450 line, and when lines are already cut that do that, its not working to the 350s strengths.

My point being that if all things being equal(fresh track for personal use) the 350/450 are very comparable if not the 350 being better. But once you add a full gate of 450 lines and getting burned by 450s off the start the pendulum starts to swing to the 450
I wasnt really asking about which bike is better or whatever, I was just wondering if they even bothered to ask Ryan to make a choice or did they already know the answer before asking the question.
TripleFive 10/9/2011 7:22pm
10/9/2011 7:22pm
"Hey Ryan, Roger here. Do you want the same displacement as everyone else or do you want to give up 100cc?"
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GuyB 10/9/2011 7:23pm
10/9/2011 7:23pm
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
TripleFive 10/9/2011 7:26pm
10/9/2011 7:26pm
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
So you're saying the current crop will be superior?
machine
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machine 10/9/2011 7:26pm
10/9/2011 7:26pm
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
Kudos to KTM for realizing that there is a difference between the shores and adjusting, instead of being too rigged.
hartebreak
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hartebreak 10/9/2011 7:28pm
10/9/2011 7:28pm
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
GuyB, in your professional opinion, do you think we will ever see another high profile rider (in the US) on the 350 again? Not counting for any future rule changes?
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GuyB 10/9/2011 7:35pm
10/9/2011 7:35pm
Yeah. Musquin next weekend.
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steve_97060 10/9/2011 7:35pm
10/9/2011 7:35pm
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
that sounds like a reasonable, and logical assumption..
hartebreak
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hartebreak 10/9/2011 7:36pm
10/9/2011 7:36pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah. Musquin next weekend.
haha, you know what I meant.
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redalert144 10/9/2011 7:43pm
10/9/2011 7:43pm
hartebreak wrote:
I wasnt really asking about which bike is better or whatever, I was just wondering if they even bothered to ask Ryan to make a choice...
I wasnt really asking about which bike is better or whatever, I was just wondering if they even bothered to ask Ryan to make a choice or did they already know the answer before asking the question.
My point being, Dungey knows he needs a 450
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Derpin' DJ 10/9/2011 8:16pm
10/9/2011 8:16pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah. Musquin next weekend.
hartebreak wrote:
haha, you know what I meant.
And I'm sure Roczen and Musquin will probably have a crack at some rounds at opposite coasts in next years SX on that bike
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Premixed 10/9/2011 8:49pm
10/9/2011 8:49pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
And I'm sure Roczen and Musquin will probably have a crack at some rounds at opposite coasts in next years SX on that bike
i hadnt considered that. will be watching for roczen for sure in the big bike class.
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GuyB 10/9/2011 9:15pm
10/9/2011 9:15pm
GuyB wrote:
Yeah. Musquin next weekend.
hartebreak wrote:
haha, you know what I meant.
And I was being serious. Smile
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newmann 10/9/2011 9:33pm
10/9/2011 9:33pm
Best part about it is that KTM is ready, willing and able to react to requests and demands at a moments notice. Meanwhile all we hear about the Japanese OEM's is how could any of us expect them to invest in new tooling and such after all they've invested in the current motocross bikes. LMAO.

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stackman17 10/9/2011 9:38pm
10/9/2011 9:38pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2011 9:38pm
redalert144 wrote:
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great...
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great bike and prolly can turn times comparable with a 450. The big difference is starts and lines in the corners. 350 is not going to get as good starts and its lines are more sweeping in the corners unlike the 450s more point and shoot. We call it diamonding corners in dirt track racing but that is a 450 line, and when lines are already cut that do that, its not working to the 350s strengths.

My point being that if all things being equal(fresh track for personal use) the 350/450 are very comparable if not the 350 being better. But once you add a full gate of 450 lines and getting burned by 450s off the start the pendulum starts to swing to the 450
That is one of the most insightful posts I have read on here since, oh say, Pala. Thanks for your input.
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redalert144 10/9/2011 10:15pm
10/9/2011 10:15pm
redalert144 wrote:
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great...
Theres a big difference between being fast on a practice track and being fast in a race. The 350 on its own track is a great bike and prolly can turn times comparable with a 450. The big difference is starts and lines in the corners. 350 is not going to get as good starts and its lines are more sweeping in the corners unlike the 450s more point and shoot. We call it diamonding corners in dirt track racing but that is a 450 line, and when lines are already cut that do that, its not working to the 350s strengths.

My point being that if all things being equal(fresh track for personal use) the 350/450 are very comparable if not the 350 being better. But once you add a full gate of 450 lines and getting burned by 450s off the start the pendulum starts to swing to the 450
stackman17 wrote:
That is one of the most insightful posts I have read on here since, oh say, Pala. Thanks for your input.
How?
stackman17
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stackman17 10/9/2011 10:19pm
10/9/2011 10:19pm
The explanation provided of the "diamonding corners" and how race lines are formed benefitting 450's power and ability to point and shoot. Straight up compliment my sir.
ando
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ando 10/10/2011 12:20am
10/10/2011 12:20am
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
There's an interesting implication here.

Your assumption is that KTM built a bike specifically for Europe, which then has shortcomings in the US. If that is the case surely the reverse must apply to Japanese bikes?

Japanese bikes have been racing and winning in Europe for a long time, with the same basic bike that is available everywhere else. Does that mean that Japanese bikes were not really suited for European motocross, and that they were ripe for the picking for a European (or any other) manufacturer to build a "European" MX bike?
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22Ryann 10/10/2011 12:37am
10/10/2011 12:37am
I cant believe not one single person has asked him how the STEEL frame feels compared to riding Alloy forever... this is a huge difference and no one has even mentioned it!!!

W
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F
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Shawn142 10/10/2011 5:30am
10/10/2011 5:30am
newmann wrote:
Best part about it is that KTM is ready, willing and able to react to requests and demands at a moments notice. Meanwhile all we hear...
Best part about it is that KTM is ready, willing and able to react to requests and demands at a moments notice. Meanwhile all we hear about the Japanese OEM's is how could any of us expect them to invest in new tooling and such after all they've invested in the current motocross bikes. LMAO.
It seems like maybe in the next 10 years we'll mostly be converted over to the Euro bikes as the Japanese OEMs fall away. It seems like TM is making a mild push to increase their part of the US market. Even Husky is getting in on the deal now.

The deal with KTM and this new 450 is confusing. I thought the bike was developed strictly for Dungey, but according to the RacerX Films interview the motor has already won a national championship in Europe. So have Dungey and KTM basically been talking about this for the better part of a year? He must have made the no-350 demand a long time ago.
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SteveS 10/10/2011 6:05am
10/10/2011 6:05am
GuyB wrote:
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation. The current crop of KTMs (and especially the...
Or maybe Roger was already working in that direction on his own. Both of my answers are speculation.

The current crop of KTMs (and especially the 350) were built with design input from Stefan Everts. I think the new 450 will be based on design input from this side of the Atlantic, with focus on what it takes to win in SX and MX here.
In the KTM press day video that RacerX had a couple of days ago, the head of KTM they interviewed seemed to imply that they've found the 450 to work better for American racing and that was the bike they would be concetrating on here.
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Faceaz 10/10/2011 10:47am
10/10/2011 10:47am
I'd bet Dungey was very specific about his needs (450, EFI, etc.) & probably even has it in his contract. KTM has obviously been developing it for a while, as a lure & to meet the expectation of whatever top rider they signed. The 350 & I believe KTM is acknowledging this, is best suited for 250 riders moving into the 450 class, not a 450 rider moving down to a 350.
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zippy895 10/10/2011 1:03pm
10/10/2011 1:03pm
22Ryann wrote:
I cant believe not one single person has asked him how the STEEL frame feels compared to riding Alloy forever... this is a huge difference and...
I cant believe not one single person has asked him how the STEEL frame feels compared to riding Alloy forever... this is a huge difference and no one has even mentioned it!!!

W
T
F
well for one, the steel frame keeps the engine cooler than aluminum frames
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raceyami 10/10/2011 1:22pm
10/10/2011 1:22pm
GuyB wrote:
It is a good question. Just guessing? A new 450 (instead of a 350 or the initial 450) was part of the lure to getting him...
It is a good question.

Just guessing? A new 450 (instead of a 350 or the initial 450) was part of the lure to getting him to commit.
I think there is a clue in Rogers interview. There is a part in the interview where he says they are still working on getting the bike into production to make the numbers up, to get the new bike "production" compliant.

In other words, they need to make enough of the bikes to make it fall into the production category to qualify for the AMA rules. This would indicate that the 450 is a KTM business strategy and not a 350 vs 450 decision. Perhaps the 350 was just not popular in the market for whatever reason. KTM is a very strong brand in Europe and not so much in the USA so seems like strategy from KTM's part for sure.
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RaceFace 10/10/2011 1:23pm
10/10/2011 1:23pm
I do not believe Short ever had any choice. If he did, why not try the 450 at one race just for kicks. Dungey has a choice and I doubt he ever even considered the 350.

There is word that Cairoli is going to decide if he should make the switch for 2012. Nagl initially "loved" the 350 but has now stated he will be switching back.
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DrSweden 10/10/2011 1:37pm
10/10/2011 1:37pm
Cool info. I'm thinking some consumers benefits from the 350, while the pro NEEDS the 450, but since sales benefits from marketing, this 350 being not enough for the fastest in the world, but good enough for 99.9% creates some serious confusion, hence KTM still trying to promote it as competitive enough... Maybe that explains the constant contradictions from the KTM camp?

Occams razor bro!

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