Some Rules Changes in MX

HondaMan66
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5/1/2020 6:35am
What’s the difference between a 250 F spinning 15,000 rpm and a 250 2 stroke turning 10,000 rpm? A Whole lot of money. Other than that they go around the track about the same. I like the idea of a competing series if MXS does not want to make this change.
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captmoto
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5/1/2020 7:57am
yak651 wrote:
That's not going to happen. They might be up on the start but after 15 minutes the factory bikes are going to be ahead. There is...
That's not going to happen. They might be up on the start but after 15 minutes the factory bikes are going to be ahead. There is no reason they can't go to this rule. DC himself said factories "prefer". Didn't say that factories insist - I highly doubt anyone is going to take their ball and go home if the rule is changed (except maybe Suzuki so they have an excuse)
The factory bike will be ahead because they have the factory riders. It doesn't matter how how many strokes they ride.

The Shop

RichieW13
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5/1/2020 8:33am
gt80rider wrote:
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash...
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash and make the riders do even more crap.... Isn't putting their lives on the line enough?
DC wrote:
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have...
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have to show up for the press functions and appointments, like morning talk shows or appearances, and not just show up when it's time to ride. It's damaging to all, the team as well as the series, when a top rider has an appointment with a live local news show and blows it off, because the chances of that station ever coming back and covering the event are pretty much out the window. If you say you're going to be there, you actually need to be there. Otherwise, don't expect to come and just ride.

DC
Racer X
I just want to commend you for usually (always?) being transparent about the inner workings of your organization, and even doing so in an external forum.

It's so rare to see the leader of any major (and most minor) organizations, come on and explain these things to the masses.
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RichieW13
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5/1/2020 8:51am
BMc914 wrote:
The idea that kids now have to get a GED or high school diploma to race MOTOCROSS is awesome. But If SUPERCROSS doesn't have same requirements...
The idea that kids now have to get a GED or high school diploma to race MOTOCROSS is awesome. But If SUPERCROSS doesn't have same requirements its doesn't matter. All the big money is in supercross so these kids will just be supercross only riders and skip motocross.

Can't have two different series, two different promoters making rules for the same riders. They need to be working together and coming to common ground.

Also how old does the rider have to be until the rule does not apply to have a high school diploma or GED to race?
It would be harder for them to get a factory ride if they aren't eligible for the outdoor series.

Also it wouldn't be surprising if SX added a similar rule.
dkg
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5/1/2020 9:17am
slipdog wrote:
Did I get this right? [b]"as determined in the sole discretion of MX Sports Pro Racing"[/b] *18yr old privateer that left High School without graduating... "Sorry...
Did I get this right?


"as determined in the sole discretion of MX Sports Pro Racing"

*18yr old privateer that left High School without graduating... "Sorry, you can't race"

**18yr old factory signed phenom drop out... "We'll put you straight into the seeded A practice"

***Joe Privateer caught using Adderal without prescription..."Banned from AMA competition for one year starting today"

****Factory star caught using Adderal without prescription... "Banned from AMA competition for 3 months effective the weekend after the final round of the outdoor nationals"
Seems to me that MX Sports has always been fair and even handed. More Like:

*18yr old privateer that left High School without graduating... Go get your GED or enroll in a high school graduate program -- and then you can race"

**18yr old factory signed phenom drop out... "Go get your GED or enroll in a high school graduate program -- and then you can race"

***Joe Privateer caught using Adderal without prescription..."Banned from AMA competition for (I'm not going to guess the length)"

****Factory star caught using Adderal without prescription... "Banned from AMA competition for (I'm not going to guess the length) + Team probably terminates contract"
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dkg
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5/1/2020 9:42am
Overall I like the changes.

- Riders should attend and participate in promotional activities. This helps keep the sport healthy.
- On the GED/High School rule - lets be honest, most of the guys are going to have to work after their Dirt Bike career is over - this rule simply makes sense.
- PED rule - finally a rational approach to penalties.
- Camera rule - seems to draw a good balance between fair use by the rider/teams and the interests of others (TV)
- Criticism Rule - Just be mature about your complaints - seems reasonable to me.

The rule changes should elevate the professionalism in the sport and promote growth.
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dkg
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5/1/2020 9:52am
EngIceDave wrote:
- Got to get a HS diploma or equivalent to get a pro license - Got to be 18 to race 450's - If busted for...
- Got to get a HS diploma or equivalent to get a pro license
- Got to be 18 to race 450's
- If busted for dope, suspension may be as low as one year, as much as two
- They've added a "detrimental to the sport" rule for behaviors and acts
- Got to show up for press events (like post race press conf/interviews) and don't ditch early
Thanks for both the write up and the summary.
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piscokid
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5/1/2020 10:15am
Riders and teams not being able to sell their own merch at the races is the biggest travesty of all. The extra money those teams could go a long way in keeping teams solvent. Remember the hype around Stankdog when he was riding a 2 stroke a couple of summers ago? How much extra dough would he have made if he could have been selling his shirts/stickers/hats in the pits???
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5/1/2020 10:19am
They are afraid of privateers showing up on a nearly bone stock 250 two stroke and winning against factory 250 four strokes.
zehn wrote:
Whatever you want to tell yourself
There is no way a 250 two stroke will outperform a Star Yamaha or a PC KX250........ 250 Four Strokes have had almost 20 years of development. Even the stock ones are unbelievable
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Plugga
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5/1/2020 4:11pm
They are afraid of privateers showing up on a nearly bone stock 250 two stroke and winning against factory 250 four strokes.
zehn wrote:
Whatever you want to tell yourself
There is no way a 250 two stroke will outperform a Star Yamaha or a PC KX250........ 250 Four Strokes have had almost 20 years of...
There is no way a 250 two stroke will outperform a Star Yamaha or a PC KX250........ 250 Four Strokes have had almost 20 years of development. Even the stock ones are unbelievable
...so why do we have these handicap rules still in place?
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5/1/2020 4:56pm
zehn wrote:
Whatever you want to tell yourself
There is no way a 250 two stroke will outperform a Star Yamaha or a PC KX250........ 250 Four Strokes have had almost 20 years of...
There is no way a 250 two stroke will outperform a Star Yamaha or a PC KX250........ 250 Four Strokes have had almost 20 years of development. Even the stock ones are unbelievable
Plugga wrote:
...so why do we have these handicap rules still in place?
Didn’t DC already cover that? The other manufacturers who don’t make 2 strokes anymore don’t want it happening.
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5/1/2020 5:00pm
Plugga wrote:
...so why do we have these handicap rules still in place?
Because the manufacturers want it that way. I don’t know how many times this has to be said.

I don’t know if I’ll ever do another outdoor National, and if I do, it won’t be on a two stroke. I love 250 two strokes. They’re awesome. They’re harder to ride, sound better, are a little wild, and at times have an advantage. But I’ll say it straight up- I would do better at local races on four strokes.
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kardy
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5/1/2020 5:44pm
EngIceDave wrote:
- Got to get a HS diploma or equivalent to get a pro license - Got to be 18 to race 450's - If busted for...
- Got to get a HS diploma or equivalent to get a pro license
- Got to be 18 to race 450's
- If busted for dope, suspension may be as low as one year, as much as two
- They've added a "detrimental to the sport" rule for behaviors and acts
- Got to show up for press events (like post race press conf/interviews) and don't ditch early
No, it says: "starting in 2021, riders competing in the 450 class must provide proof of a high school diploma or its equivalent (a GED)"

So that implies they can come out of Ams and turn pro without it but they'll need it to move to 450s.
bustinnuts!
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5/1/2020 6:50pm
DC wrote:
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have...
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have to show up for the press functions and appointments, like morning talk shows or appearances, and not just show up when it's time to ride. It's damaging to all, the team as well as the series, when a top rider has an appointment with a live local news show and blows it off, because the chances of that station ever coming back and covering the event are pretty much out the window. If you say you're going to be there, you actually need to be there. Otherwise, don't expect to come and just ride.

DC
Racer X
APLMAN99 wrote:
While I agree that a rider not doing what they say they are going to do reflects poorly on the overall organization of the sanctioning body...
While I agree that a rider not doing what they say they are going to do reflects poorly on the overall organization of the sanctioning body and promoters, on the flip side is there any thought of compensation being given to them for that time that they are required to market the sport/series?

Their lack of effort can hurt, but the flip side is that there is also monetary value to their participation as well. Is that value being shared with the riders who do these marketing activities?
DC wrote:
Marketing themselves and their motorcycles and the races they enter are a big part of the job of being a professional racer. The promoter doesn't pay...
Marketing themselves and their motorcycles and the races they enter are a big part of the job of being a professional racer. The promoter doesn't pay them to do press day, but we do allow them to ride the track for extra practice in return for helping out. We also provide the platform and TV coverage for them to support their sponsors and advance their careers; they provide the talent that brings in spectators and sponsors.

DC
Racer X
To say we can’t bring 2 strokes back because the Oems insist that we don’t is the dumbest excuse you could have come up with. Yea... there going to just stop racing outdoors if you allow 250’s with other 250’s. Smh YOU run the series, you guys came up with the dumbest displacement rules. WE all said it would hurt the sport decades ago, and look what has happened! Your a historian of the sport, you know your shit. Right the wrongs, and let’s keep moving. This is a race series, there should be very very little “politics” Involved.
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scott_nz
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5/1/2020 7:23pm
To say we can’t bring 2 strokes back because the Oems insist that we don’t is the dumbest excuse you could have come up with. Yea...
To say we can’t bring 2 strokes back because the Oems insist that we don’t is the dumbest excuse you could have come up with. Yea... there going to just stop racing outdoors if you allow 250’s with other 250’s. Smh YOU run the series, you guys came up with the dumbest displacement rules. WE all said it would hurt the sport decades ago, and look what has happened! Your a historian of the sport, you know your shit. Right the wrongs, and let’s keep moving. This is a race series, there should be very very little “politics” Involved.
have a look at the american road race scene if you want to see what racing with out the factory teams look like,

DMG did what you wanted, made their own rules and ran with it, and all the factory teams left, and the series now is a shell of what it was in the 90's and 00's,

be careful what you wish for, unless you want a series at the level of Australia or Canada, where there are maybe 2-3 paying rides in the 250 class,
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BS12
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5/1/2020 8:21pm
DC wrote:
Thanks for the compliment, and I'm not dodging anything. I have explained this many times. There are six major OEMs in this sport right now (soon...
Thanks for the compliment, and I'm not dodging anything. I have explained this many times. There are six major OEMs in this sport right now (soon to be seven) and they invest more money in three championships--AMA Supercross, AMA Pro Motocross, FIM MXGP--than in all other series combined. They have ALL SIX told us time and again that they prefer to race on similar equipment in these series, 250cc four-strokes and 450cc four-strokes. It's not just one brand, or three brands, but ALL of the brands, including all of the ones that still make 250cc two-strokes. They do not have the budgets nor the desire to go back and develop their two-stroke 250s in order to compete at this level again, and while I don't agree with them, nor did I agree with the change 25 years ago, I do respect their opinion to make and market the products they want to market and race against.

DC
Racer X





The way this is worded, is that the OEM's rule the roost, which to a degree is understandable and not exactly hidden or denied - fair play.

However, a rule change allowing equal displacement shouldn't affect them that much? Your response's wording leads me to assume that the "OEM's preference" is referring to a heavy factory team bias. A rule change wouldn't change anything they are doing - their riders ride up the front of the pack, with a heavy TV coverage bias, on the latest 4 stroke equipment and surely (surely?) no factory rider would want to potentially hamper their results by electing to race a 2 stroke.

An equal displacement rule change would be aimed at benefiting the struggling privateer, who is looking to reduce overhead costs to attend the races. Even if they ran a fully bombed 250T, its likely their skill level isn't yet high enough to earn a factory ride yet anyway.

Now the grey area - satellite riders/up-comers performing on 2 strokes.

Is it then not up to the teams - both satellite and factory, to negotiate or determine what models their riders will race? On an extreme scale, KTM will dictate that both Coop & Marv are to ride the 450 at all times (not that I think this would even be a discussion).

However a team like Rock River, for example, may look at giving their riders the option. For them, costs are potentially lowered by allowing their riders a 2 stroke option if they chose, or continue as is on 4 stroke - no harm, no foul. Again, no one is affected, teams/riders have the ultimate say in what they ride.

The only further hiccup I can see and maybe understand is your last sentence: "to make and market the products they want to market and race against. I see this as meaning they don't want to have other models besides their premier 250f and 450s visible on track, which is kind of a double edged sword don't you think? Allowing 2 strokes would likely see an increased number of 3 brands only - KTM, Husky & Yamaha. And this could potentially be the ongoing issue with the other 3?
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BobPA
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5/1/2020 8:33pm
Would not surprise me one bit if they formed a union soon.

Making statement such as "Marketing themselves and their motorcycles and the races they enter are a big part of the job of being a professional racer", all whilst not allowing riders to sell their own merchandise is a bit counterintuitive don't you think? Or is it because you can't get a piece of that pie too.

You charge an entry fee to race, then you expect them to promote the tracks and series too....please. That's really having your cake and eating it too. Allowing a one minute GoPro clip and having to tag the promotion in it is just pure greed. Maybe one day you will realize the fans are there to see the riders, not the miles of advertising banners blocking the view of the track.

Most of these rules are not surprising though. Look at what has become of Loretta's. You need some serious cubic dollars to even think of that Moto trip.
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aeffertz
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5/2/2020 9:10am
Oh hey, it’s a two stroke vs. four stroke thread.
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Bearuno
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5/2/2020 10:50am
scott_nz wrote:
have a look at the american road race scene if you want to see what racing with out the factory teams look like, DMG did what...
have a look at the american road race scene if you want to see what racing with out the factory teams look like,

DMG did what you wanted, made their own rules and ran with it, and all the factory teams left, and the series now is a shell of what it was in the 90's and 00's,

be careful what you wish for, unless you want a series at the level of Australia or Canada, where there are maybe 2-3 paying rides in the 250 class,
Comparing the utter lunacy that DMG / Edmondson(sp) did to the very simple allowance of equivalency - well, there is no bloody comparison.

DC has offered up the same excuse for not allowing equivalency for years now. It's really getting tedious , and, to be quite frank, it's sad that he is under the thumb of the manufacturers. It must be difficult for him, but, I'd love to see him reduce the foxes control of the hen house.....

No factory would pull out - they'd be shooting themselves in their balls if they did so. But, if any did, well, so long, farewell, and goodbye - well, f**k off, to be crude.

And, it's pretty simple that you'd have No Satellite Teams running 2Ts, if the manufacturer that was in partnership with them, that made 2Ts, said No 2ts.

As many have said, it just might help privateers.

But, even then, there would not be many 2Ts out there ( and no, jumping on that point to stop equivalency is just a pathetic arguement that some resort to) 4Ts are so far from being XRs/ TTs/DRs etc. They are weapons, not foo foo bikes. And, dealer support is still very much a thing that manufacturers control. Simply put, even at dealer support level, a manufacture that offers 'race price deal's, will support what they want to 'push'.


It is just about removing a piss poor rule, that has ceased to have any validity, for well, well over a decade now - well, it really never had validity. It reduces the top level(s) of our Sport, to a sheltered workshop charade.


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kkawboy14
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5/2/2020 1:08pm
gt80rider wrote:
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash...
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash and make the riders do even more crap.... Isn't putting their lives on the line enough?
DC wrote:
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have...
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have to show up for the press functions and appointments, like morning talk shows or appearances, and not just show up when it's time to ride. It's damaging to all, the team as well as the series, when a top rider has an appointment with a live local news show and blows it off, because the chances of that station ever coming back and covering the event are pretty much out the window. If you say you're going to be there, you actually need to be there. Otherwise, don't expect to come and just ride.

DC
Racer X
Well....what if they say they are never gonna be there for that stuff? Is that ok?

Gotta love a nanny state!

Gotta go to school to race that dirt bike!

Gotta be 18 to join the military and 21 to drink alcohol, seems appropriate to have age restrictions in a the class to make a living and force a guy into a class where he might be able to earn a living wage!

Can’t crack on another rider? Is it ok to crack on his mom and dad?

Drug testing? Joke #4

Since they aren’t paid employees, seems like they could force you to pay them for any time demands you put on them! There are specific do’s and don’ts involved with a true subcontractor arrangement.



But I could be wrong!
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kkawboy14
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5/2/2020 1:13pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2020 1:14pm
gt80rider wrote:
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash...
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash and make the riders do even more crap.... Isn't putting their lives on the line enough?
EngIceDave wrote:
No, it's not Your job, as a professional racer, is more than just going fast. Ask those racing GP's, MotoGP, F1, Nascar, on and on... Part...
No, it's not

Your job, as a professional racer, is more than just going fast. Ask those racing GP's, MotoGP, F1, Nascar, on and on...

Part of the job, and it is a job, is to effectively and properly represent the sport and your sponsors. You show up for photo shoots, studio or track, you show for press day and do the media dog and pony show, you show up at the post race press conference and stay for the whole thing, not ditch it midway.

It’s not a job!

They are unpaid participants in a sporting event!

If it was a job they could not be denied union rights to form a union, they would have to be paid minimum wages.....oh your saying they are subcontractors? Well then you don’t have the right to tell them what to do in that arrangement!
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EngIceDave
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5/2/2020 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 5/2/2020 1:38pm
Those who are in the upper tier are well paid, and their job is to both deliver at or above expectations on the track and represent their sponsors in a positive light

That's a job

As for a union, who is their employer?

Who does Ken Roczen work for?
Who does Eli Tomac work for?

Who are their employers?
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kkawboy14
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5/2/2020 1:50pm
EngIceDave wrote:
Those who are in the upper tier are well paid, and their job is to both deliver at or above expectations on the track and represent...
Those who are in the upper tier are well paid, and their job is to both deliver at or above expectations on the track and represent their sponsors in a positive light

That's a job

As for a union, who is their employer?

Who does Ken Roczen work for?
Who does Eli Tomac work for?

Who are their employers?
Ken Roczen works for Honda
Eli Tomac works for Kawasaki

Their jobs are for those companies!

Privateers work for themselves.

They are All unpaid participants in a sporting event. In fact many of them lose money doing it, the government says that if you are losing money doing something it is a hobby.
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DC
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5/2/2020 1:56pm
gt80rider wrote:
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash...
Gotta love a rule that forces a rider to participate in marketing functions, when they should be focusing on their upcoming race.... Gotta save that cash and make the riders do even more crap.... Isn't putting their lives on the line enough?
DC wrote:
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have...
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have to show up for the press functions and appointments, like morning talk shows or appearances, and not just show up when it's time to ride. It's damaging to all, the team as well as the series, when a top rider has an appointment with a live local news show and blows it off, because the chances of that station ever coming back and covering the event are pretty much out the window. If you say you're going to be there, you actually need to be there. Otherwise, don't expect to come and just ride.

DC
Racer X
kkawboy14 wrote:
Well....what if they say they are never gonna be there for that stuff? Is that ok? Gotta love a nanny state! Gotta go to school to...
Well....what if they say they are never gonna be there for that stuff? Is that ok?

Gotta love a nanny state!

Gotta go to school to race that dirt bike!

Gotta be 18 to join the military and 21 to drink alcohol, seems appropriate to have age restrictions in a the class to make a living and force a guy into a class where he might be able to earn a living wage!

Can’t crack on another rider? Is it ok to crack on his mom and dad?

Drug testing? Joke #4

Since they aren’t paid employees, seems like they could force you to pay them for any time demands you put on them! There are specific do’s and don’ts involved with a true subcontractor arrangement.



But I could be wrong!
These are not "demands" by any means. It's okay not to come to press day if you don't want to. But if you say will come, and want to ride, please be available to the press. That's why it's call "press day." It's not mandatory for anyone. If you don't want to participate, don't participate. Plenty of other guys would love to help out, get some press for their sponsors and the event and then get some track time.

DC
Racer X
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EngIceDave
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5/2/2020 2:03pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Ken Roczen works for Honda Eli Tomac works for Kawasaki Their jobs are for those companies! Privateers work for themselves. They are All unpaid participants in...
Ken Roczen works for Honda
Eli Tomac works for Kawasaki

Their jobs are for those companies!

Privateers work for themselves.

They are All unpaid participants in a sporting event. In fact many of them lose money doing it, the government says that if you are losing money doing something it is a hobby.
So then who are they unionizing against?
Japan?

And do you think those who do have jobs with the OEM's are going to walk out on their big fat paychecks and bonus money?

For who?
What benefit is there for them?

Careers and earning potential window is far too narrow to miss races on some strike that won't even benefit them directly.

The "haves" will not not give up for the "have nots"

That's reality

That's like saying Jamie Dimon will strike so the floor traders can make more money
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kkawboy14
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5/2/2020 2:17pm
DC wrote:
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have...
It's not what you think, and it has nothing to do with "saving that cash." If you want to come and ride press day, you have to show up for the press functions and appointments, like morning talk shows or appearances, and not just show up when it's time to ride. It's damaging to all, the team as well as the series, when a top rider has an appointment with a live local news show and blows it off, because the chances of that station ever coming back and covering the event are pretty much out the window. If you say you're going to be there, you actually need to be there. Otherwise, don't expect to come and just ride.

DC
Racer X
kkawboy14 wrote:
Well....what if they say they are never gonna be there for that stuff? Is that ok? Gotta love a nanny state! Gotta go to school to...
Well....what if they say they are never gonna be there for that stuff? Is that ok?

Gotta love a nanny state!

Gotta go to school to race that dirt bike!

Gotta be 18 to join the military and 21 to drink alcohol, seems appropriate to have age restrictions in a the class to make a living and force a guy into a class where he might be able to earn a living wage!

Can’t crack on another rider? Is it ok to crack on his mom and dad?

Drug testing? Joke #4

Since they aren’t paid employees, seems like they could force you to pay them for any time demands you put on them! There are specific do’s and don’ts involved with a true subcontractor arrangement.



But I could be wrong!
DC wrote:
These are not "demands" by any means. It's okay not to come to press day if you don't want to. But if you say will come...
These are not "demands" by any means. It's okay not to come to press day if you don't want to. But if you say will come, and want to ride, please be available to the press. That's why it's call "press day." It's not mandatory for anyone. If you don't want to participate, don't participate. Plenty of other guys would love to help out, get some press for their sponsors and the event and then get some track time.

DC
Racer X
I totally agree with press day!
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