So much passing in '93 Supercross

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This is some great racing, and the tracks are very slow compared to today. It's crazy how much more action there was in this race, and they are crawling compared to today's race speeds. (1993 Houston Supercross)

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Swann
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7/15/2017 10:10pm
Guy Cooper... one of my all-time favorites. Such a badass.
Ted722
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7/15/2017 10:33pm Edited Date/Time 7/15/2017 10:42pm
Bradshaw, Cooper, Stanton, Kiedrowski,and McGrath. Such a contrast of riding styles and bikes. I think I heard Cooper was 31 in that race...awesome. Crazy that the rookie (who finished fifth) would go on to win 4 straight right after Houston...10 of the remaining 15.
Travis_Hudson
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7/15/2017 10:51pm
oldblood wrote:
2 stroke. That's why.
Bingo....watch Anaheim 99 .......2000.......97.....shit, it doesn't matter, the racing was crazy! I just started watching some of the old races again, even I had forgot how much better it was for the most part.

The Shop

Travis_Hudson
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7/15/2017 10:53pm
And the tracks! It was so much more like excite bike! Up and down....round and round! More option sections! Of course a lot of this was based off the machines at the time. Just a good combination.
mx_phreek
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7/16/2017 5:38am
You generally had a hard to ride bike with peaky powerbands, you had interesting tracks with proper sized whoops and steep transitions in the jumps. Add all that together and you get lots of mistakes and thus lots of passing.
Frodad78
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7/16/2017 5:40am Edited Date/Time 7/16/2017 5:40am
I'd like to add that Larocco had a pretty sweet mullet.
8686
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7/16/2017 6:57am
And the tracks! It was so much more like excite bike! Up and down....round and round! More option sections! Of course a lot of this was...
And the tracks! It was so much more like excite bike! Up and down....round and round! More option sections! Of course a lot of this was based off the machines at the time. Just a good combination.
I don't think it was the bikes as much as it was the track, but even more than that it was just the general progression of the sport. Put today's riders on those bikes on today's tracks and it looks completely different.
Crush
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7/16/2017 7:24am Edited Date/Time 7/16/2017 7:29am
Those bikes had to be ridden perfect to go fast. So they make mistakes. Passes happen. AND there was a reason to go outside... momentum. And again another passing opportunity opens.

Tracks were made of obstacles that weren't do or die, but you needed to do 1 to do 2 etc because of the bikes...

4 strokes. Mistake. Gas it. Clear it. Everyone can do it if they've got the nuts, add some skill, take away some berms and dirt, some 180s and you get follow the leader.

It's mind boggling "they" haven't addressed it.
Travis_Hudson
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7/16/2017 7:29am
The tracks started to change a little in 01 .......they got a little faster. It was for sure a combo of track and machine though. Four strokes would struggle on something that peaky......maybe not the 250f's so much but the bigger bikes for sure.
yak651
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7/16/2017 8:07am
Get rid of stupid on/off jumps. Might as well have just have a flat straight....
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7/16/2017 10:03am
There is no passing happening on a rhythm section with gigantic jumps.
It seems like riders would get hurt less on those older tracks with the slower speeds, but I don't really remember that being the case. Maybe there are fewer of the big career-enders.
APLMAN99
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7/16/2017 10:21am
I think the issue comes down to one concept, "flow".

We hear all kinds of complaints that a track needs to have "flow", but that's just a way of making a track easier and faster. Throw a wall obstacle on a couple of straights on every track, stop designing tracks with the intention of a 3-3-2 combo, etc. That would slow things down, but it would also probably lead to more runaway wins when a technical specialist would master things so much faster and easier than all the other riders, ala McGrath......
NorCal 50+
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7/16/2017 10:37am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I think the issue comes down to one concept, "flow". We hear all kinds of complaints that a track needs to have "flow", but that's just...
I think the issue comes down to one concept, "flow".

We hear all kinds of complaints that a track needs to have "flow", but that's just a way of making a track easier and faster. Throw a wall obstacle on a couple of straights on every track, stop designing tracks with the intention of a 3-3-2 combo, etc. That would slow things down, but it would also probably lead to more runaway wins when a technical specialist would master things so much faster and easier than all the other riders, ala McGrath......
Back then the riders had no say in the tracks, as far as I am aware (not that tracks back then didn't have some serious issues). Maybe the complaints from certain riders today that the tracks don't resemble their manicured SX tracks at home is why there is less competition.
Look at Anaheim 1986- that does not look like a fun track to ride at all, very little "flow." But one of the best races in SX history.
BobPA
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7/16/2017 10:43am
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
APLMAN99
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7/16/2017 10:46am
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
I don't think it's the peaked faces themselves that are the issue, it'd be the postage stamp sized landings.
BobPA
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7/16/2017 2:52pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I don't think it's the peaked faces themselves that are the issue, it'd be the postage stamp sized landings.
How does that matter at all?
APLMAN99
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7/16/2017 5:45pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I don't think it's the peaked faces themselves that are the issue, it'd be the postage stamp sized landings.
BobPA wrote:
How does that matter at all?
Well, flat landings are a whole lot less desirable than the current fantastically prepped, smooth, long, and forgiving landing ramps that are currently built.

Building peaked jumps and walls that don't have smooth landings built for triples would naturally slow things down and disrupt that magical "flow".... Cc
kzizok
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7/16/2017 6:28pm
I forgot how wild Cooper was! Funny thing is, I don't remember him getting hurt much, locally.

Man, he and Cliff Plamer used to have some local batlles for the ages.
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7/16/2017 7:52pm
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
You try to wrestle a 450 around something like that. On a four stroke where you would get shot straight up and have to choke back down, is a lot harder on a thumper with so much inertia.
dirtnapper
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7/16/2017 8:26pm
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
This! ( your first paragraph )

Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means , but nothing looks even remotely as big as the jumps/ obstacles do now a days.
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7/16/2017 11:09pm Edited Date/Time 7/16/2017 11:59pm
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
dirtnapper wrote:
This! ( your first paragraph ) Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means...
This! ( your first paragraph )

Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means , but nothing looks even remotely as big as the jumps/ obstacles do now a days.
Take a look at the first lap when Kehoe skies a triple-- freaking insane. I think they had a better ratio of jumps to other obstacles at that time.
It is hard to put your finger on. But these guys were doing huge, technical obstacles back then. There was no freight train like now, but this is just one race. I think if you slow the tracks down and put more variety of obstacles in there, the racing would be better, But the riders would complain it isn't the same track Dirt Werks built at their house!
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7/16/2017 11:15pm Edited Date/Time 7/16/2017 11:57pm
Bradshaw is like 20 years old in this video and looks like a mountain man that eats raw squirrels for breakfast.
At the 37 minute mark, Despain says Cooper is 31 y.o. In 1993? You are telling me Cooper is almost 54 years old now??
Markee
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7/17/2017 10:52am
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
dirtnapper wrote:
This! ( your first paragraph ) Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means...
This! ( your first paragraph )

Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means , but nothing looks even remotely as big as the jumps/ obstacles do now a days.
I'm pretty sure dirtnapper would look like a canard goon riding video if you "would try to ride that track". Stamp it.
Markee
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7/17/2017 10:55am
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Bradshaw is like 20 years old in this video and looks like a mountain man that eats raw squirrels for breakfast. At the 37 minute mark...
Bradshaw is like 20 years old in this video and looks like a mountain man that eats raw squirrels for breakfast.
At the 37 minute mark, Despain says Cooper is 31 y.o. In 1993? You are telling me Cooper is almost 54 years old now??
Yeah, 55 I believe.
BobPA
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7/17/2017 11:09am
You try to wrestle a 450 around something like that. On a four stroke where you would get shot straight up and have to choke back...
You try to wrestle a 450 around something like that. On a four stroke where you would get shot straight up and have to choke back down, is a lot harder on a thumper with so much inertia.
You're high or blind if you think it would be harder to ride a 450 on a technical track like that. I own a 450, 250 2 stroke, and a 125...On a track, it is 100% easier to be more precise and consistent on my 450.
dirtnapper
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7/17/2017 1:26pm
BobPA wrote:
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....:) Why would...
It is amazing how much the riding style has changed. Those guys looks like something you would see in a Canard goon riding video....Smile

Why would someone think a four stroke could not handle the peaked jump faces? The bikes are not physically bigger (minus the Yamaha Wink )
dirtnapper wrote:
This! ( your first paragraph ) Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means...
This! ( your first paragraph )

Heck I think even I would try to ride that track and I'm not a skilled rider by any means , but nothing looks even remotely as big as the jumps/ obstacles do now a days.
Markee wrote:
I'm pretty sure dirtnapper would look like a canard goon riding video if you "would try to ride that track". Stamp it.
I'm pretty sure dirtnapper would look like a canard goon riding video if you "would try to ride that track". Stamp it.
Almost certainly!! Tongue

But I'd still try it!

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