Single vs Double ring piston

Rickyisms
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Edited Date/Time 4/23/2021 4:44pm
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double rings, since that's what my dad always recommended. Never had a failure, just wondering if anyone could give me some input on the pros and cons of each. To my knowledge double ringed pistons are less likely to have a catastrophic failure, but rev slower due to extra drag/weight. I rarely race anymore so I'm not looking for huge performance benefits to where it effects the reliability of the engine, was just curious on hearing everyone's opinions.
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FIREfish148
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4/22/2021 10:01am Edited Date/Time 4/22/2021 10:03am
Ricky, I friggin love you man.
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Chance1216
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4/22/2021 10:19am
Rickyisms wrote:
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double...
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double rings, since that's what my dad always recommended. Never had a failure, just wondering if anyone could give me some input on the pros and cons of each. To my knowledge double ringed pistons are less likely to have a catastrophic failure, but rev slower due to extra drag/weight. I rarely race anymore so I'm not looking for huge performance benefits to where it effects the reliability of the engine, was just curious on hearing everyone's opinions.
I sent my CR 250 cylinder to Millennium awhile back. I had them replate the cylinder and, provide a matched piston. The piston was a single ring Wiseco. The only thing I’ve noticed is it revs “a little” quicker. I haven’t had any issues with it. Just let it warm up a bit longer being forged.
There’s 11.3 hours on it so far.
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Rickyisms
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4/22/2021 1:12pm
Rickyisms wrote:
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double...
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double rings, since that's what my dad always recommended. Never had a failure, just wondering if anyone could give me some input on the pros and cons of each. To my knowledge double ringed pistons are less likely to have a catastrophic failure, but rev slower due to extra drag/weight. I rarely race anymore so I'm not looking for huge performance benefits to where it effects the reliability of the engine, was just curious on hearing everyone's opinions.
Chance1216 wrote:
I sent my CR 250 cylinder to Millennium awhile back. I had them replate the cylinder and, provide a matched piston. The piston was a single...
I sent my CR 250 cylinder to Millennium awhile back. I had them replate the cylinder and, provide a matched piston. The piston was a single ring Wiseco. The only thing I’ve noticed is it revs “a little” quicker. I haven’t had any issues with it. Just let it warm up a bit longer being forged.
There’s 11.3 hours on it so far.
From my research it seems like the single does rev slightly faster. I think I will just stick with what has worked for me in the past.
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The Shop

Brad460
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4/22/2021 1:14pm
A single ring piston will have less friction which equals improved efficiency...equals +HP.
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Bruce372
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4/22/2021 1:20pm
A friend of mine dynoed 1 vs 2 ring pistons on a ktm150.

After all the claims about friction and all that, you'd be surprised which one made more power Smile
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Rickyisms
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4/22/2021 1:25pm
Bruce372 wrote:
A friend of mine dynoed 1 vs 2 ring pistons on a ktm150. After all the claims about friction and all that, you'd be surprised which...
A friend of mine dynoed 1 vs 2 ring pistons on a ktm150.

After all the claims about friction and all that, you'd be surprised which one made more power Smile
Maybe the better sealing of a double ring helped up compression and make better power?
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Log Hopper
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4/22/2021 1:35pm
Bruce372 wrote:
A friend of mine dynoed 1 vs 2 ring pistons on a ktm150. After all the claims about friction and all that, you'd be surprised which...
A friend of mine dynoed 1 vs 2 ring pistons on a ktm150.

After all the claims about friction and all that, you'd be surprised which one made more power Smile
Rickyisms wrote:
Maybe the better sealing of a double ring helped up compression and make better power?
That was my experience. I switched back to a double ring.
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Chance1216
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4/22/2021 2:29pm
Rickyisms wrote:
From my research it seems like the single does rev slightly faster. I think I will just stick with what has worked for me in the...
From my research it seems like the single does rev slightly faster. I think I will just stick with what has worked for me in the past.
I was surprised getting a single ring piston. I thought I had to specify I wanted it when I set my order up. I’ve always ran double rings. But, I don’t have an issue using a single at this point. Who knows? My luck, it’ll lock up in the middle of nowhere (fingers crossed it doesn’t) 😉.
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DynoDan22
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4/22/2021 9:26pm
One of the main benefits of a double ring piston is heat transfer. Two rings will transfer heat from the piston into the cylinder more than a single ring. KTM's choice of using a double ring piston is not by accident. Stick with the double ring.
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Bruce372
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4/22/2021 9:49pm
DynoDan22 wrote:
One of the main benefits of a double ring piston is heat transfer. Two rings will transfer heat from the piston into the cylinder more than...
One of the main benefits of a double ring piston is heat transfer. Two rings will transfer heat from the piston into the cylinder more than a single ring. KTM's choice of using a double ring piston is not by accident. Stick with the double ring.
Yep, it's hard to imagine the company making the fastest 125s can't figure out the right piston.
Question
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4/23/2021 1:12am Edited Date/Time 4/23/2021 1:16am
From my very limited experience on that, the single ring also drops in performance 2 to 3 times more quickly (after only a few hours of use, while actually some double rings can run quite well kind of forever). I also though that the single ring was better for performance, which apparently is not from the post above. Interesting thread. From what I heard too, forged = a bit better performance but will wear the cylinder more compared to a cast one.
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STLSharky
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4/23/2021 5:48am
Rickyisms wrote:
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double...
Getting ready to tear my 125 down and do the bottom end, new crank, and I'm sending the cylinder to millennium. I have always ran double rings, since that's what my dad always recommended. Never had a failure, just wondering if anyone could give me some input on the pros and cons of each. To my knowledge double ringed pistons are less likely to have a catastrophic failure, but rev slower due to extra drag/weight. I rarely race anymore so I'm not looking for huge performance benefits to where it effects the reliability of the engine, was just curious on hearing everyone's opinions.
single ring revs quicker but wears out faster(Kx 80) vs (Yz 80)
JMX82
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4/23/2021 6:03am
With my 150SX single ring piston starts to get severe blow by after 20 hours of riding time. With double ring piston I can ride double amount of hours before blow by starts to happen.

I haven't really noticed that single ring piston would have significantly better throttle response so I would choose the double ring piston
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sandman768
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4/23/2021 7:06am
I have a full race TMR CR250, he gives the option of single or dual ring piston. His notes state: single ring most= HP, double =most torque.
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jk367
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4/23/2021 9:55am
Nice info on this thread. Getting ready to do a top end on my 125 as well and would love all your thoughts on piston brands you prefer
Rickyisms
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4/23/2021 10:39am
jk367 wrote:
Nice info on this thread. Getting ready to do a top end on my 125 as well and would love all your thoughts on piston brands...
Nice info on this thread. Getting ready to do a top end on my 125 as well and would love all your thoughts on piston brands you prefer
I have always used Vertex or Wiseco. It's hard not to trust Vertex when KTM uses them from the factory.
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JMX82
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4/23/2021 10:45am Edited Date/Time 4/23/2021 10:46am
Vertex and Wössner are my favorites. VHM makes nice billet pistons too
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Bruce372
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4/23/2021 10:55am
This is interesting, a stock husky snd the same bike fitted with hundreds of dollars worth of reeds, pipe and silencer.


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DynoDan22
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4/23/2021 3:37pm
Bruce: looks like a good investment! Haha. Shocking how close they are.
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zehn
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4/23/2021 4:11pm
All the bling isn’t worth much if you’re running stock head and ports
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Aventador
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7/9/2023 7:37pm

In all honesty claims of extra power and heat transfer are empty without tests and numbers, just people's opinions. As for KTM and most of the manufacturers they have switched from single to double, or double to single at different stages. If they can't decide with all of their research I'm sure the average Joe can't figure it out without doing multiple dyno tests and heat tests. The thing to bare in mind with a claim double rings help with heat transfer is both single and double piston rings have the same spring against the cylinder except double has 2 rings therefore you are getting twice the friction and generating more heat. I'm happy to be proven wrong with actual tests and numbers rather than my mate said so.

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7/9/2023 10:10pm

            Mr. Aventador… I believe you make a valid point about two rings creating more heat.

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tzmike
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7/10/2023 1:31pm

The parts catalogs have the dual rings listed and then they list the"GP PISTON" and it's the single ring version.  I do the single and add 2 1/16th holes 5mm down to lube the exhaust bridge 

Aventador
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7/10/2023 4:57pm

It's a matter of how hard you are running the bike and how much you want to run the risk of running an old piston when it comes to compression. If you're running a piston until the compression is so bad the bike isn't starting and running well, then you're way over the hours of the piston life. People seem to forget motocross engines are highly tuned and lightweight. So they have hours on certain parts. Drag car engines do one run with probably a minute run time and then they are rebuilt. You can run the rings until there's no compression they won't give you any issues unless your running a ported cylinder. But the piston is where the issue is. Anything over 30-40 hours on a piston in a motocross bike riding hard and you are taking a risk. Eventually the clearance will be too great and the piston slap will cause a crack and failure in the skirt, or the rings will get loose in the groove and catch a port. 

Yeti831
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7/10/2023 6:15pm

I always ran a double on my ‘01 cr250, seemed to have better compression.

Gator 4
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7/11/2023 10:38am

I like the fact that you are still ripping on a 125.  Smile  Interesting read on this topic.  I would stick with whatever the bike came with stock.  My CR is a single ring and I run stock pistons that I change at around 40 hours.  Never had a failure with over 500 hours on the motor.

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Timo
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7/12/2023 7:20pm
Brad460 wrote:
A single ring piston will have less friction which equals improved efficiency...equals +HP.

Less ring seal, so actually less horsepower. Cheaper to make though because only 1 ring groove to machine. Marketing in this sport is really out of control. Most aftermarket parts are trash in my experience comparing them to OEM. 

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Aventador
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7/12/2023 7:39pm
Brad460 wrote:
A single ring piston will have less friction which equals improved efficiency...equals +HP.
Timo wrote:
Less ring seal, so actually less horsepower. Cheaper to make though because only 1 ring groove to machine. Marketing in this sport is really out of...

Less ring seal, so actually less horsepower. Cheaper to make though because only 1 ring groove to machine. Marketing in this sport is really out of control. Most aftermarket parts are trash in my experience comparing them to OEM. 

In theory it's logical but in reality a single ring piston gets exactly the same compression readings. If you want to gain more horsepower from compression on a 2 stroke the easiest way is to run 32:1 and the oil will help get a better seal. There was some solid research on this from Husqvarna I believe it was in the 70s and 32:1 ratio had better power and wear resistance than higher ratios.

As for OEM being better and everything else is rubbish I have to disagree. If you change pistons as per the hours in the manual, and as per the specs like clearance and ring gap - you won't get a failure from aftermarket. The KX85 was double ring until 2014 then went single ring, KTM 125 I believe was single ring then changed to double ring in 2007 untill current 23 models, while the KTM 85 is single ring.

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