Since the Big 4 won't allow 250cc vs 250cc, how about

newmann
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newmann
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 1:38am


Serious question.
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observer
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observer 6/16/2010 3:03pm
6/16/2010 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:26pm
I think they(the powers that be....AMA, mftrs and promoters)ought to let a pro run whatever he wants to race! You gotta keep it close...say, if a guy wants to race a 125 2t or a 144 2t(or a 175)let him run it if he thinks he'll be competitive. I love to see some 2t mixing it up with the 250 fs out there.( and 250 2t in the 450 class)
They know they can't allow a 250 2t motocrosser out there on the track because it woudl smoke the 250fs! No...it's a fricken 2t thing, and nothing more. Pure politics, as usual...

Locally, I'm not sure what the ruling is. Haven't been to alocal race in decades...
kevin204
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kevin204 6/16/2010 3:03pm
6/16/2010 3:03pm
You want to go back in time? Sounds about right for a 2 stroke lover actually.
newmann
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newmann 6/16/2010 3:22pm
6/16/2010 3:22pm
kevin204 wrote:
You want to go back in time? Sounds about right for a 2 stroke lover actually.
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on the track. Just not willing to piss away a bunch of cash on a time bomb of a 250F at that level.

Two strokes replaced 4 strokes in the past because they were lighter, simpler and more powerful. They still are. You don't think history will repeat itself? It would bring more people into and back to this sport. I keep hearing all this bullshit about wanting to "grow" the sport. What easier way than to come up with realistic displacement rules? People are starting to avoid the four strokes more and more. Can't be a good thing.

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mooch
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mooch 6/16/2010 4:21pm
6/16/2010 4:21pm
kevin204 wrote:
You want to go back in time? Sounds about right for a 2 stroke lover actually.
So, you can in all honesty say that you see absolutely no benefit in allowing privateers to ride a bike that they can maintain at a fraction of the cost of the type of bike that they're basically forced to ride now?

Folks painting it as you are with the whole "going back in time" mentality aren't seeing the big picture.
berniepiet
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berniepiet 6/16/2010 4:24pm
6/16/2010 4:24pm
neverwasfastenuf wrote:
They wouldn't allow those nitrous system caps on top of the forks though.Wink
Hmmm....and to think all these years I thought that was the Speedometer/Tachometer
kaboom645 6/16/2010 4:31pm
6/16/2010 4:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/16/2010 4:43pm
newmann wrote:
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on...
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on the track. Just not willing to piss away a bunch of cash on a time bomb of a 250F at that level.

Two strokes replaced 4 strokes in the past because they were lighter, simpler and more powerful. They still are. You don't think history will repeat itself? It would bring more people into and back to this sport. I keep hearing all this bullshit about wanting to "grow" the sport. What easier way than to come up with realistic displacement rules? People are starting to avoid the four strokes more and more. Can't be a good thing.
The older I get , the only thing I see that the powers to be want to grow is their wallet...More media, more outside sponsors, and more catering to the upper class since they have the money to buy and maintain a 4 stroke. Eventually they will milk this cow for what its worth, and move on to the next big thing, but in the process nothing will be left of this sport. The "core" guys will be priced out, and the yuppie posers will move on to the next big "in" thing..
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Lightning78 6/16/2010 5:42pm
6/16/2010 5:42pm
newmann wrote:
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on...
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on the track. Just not willing to piss away a bunch of cash on a time bomb of a 250F at that level.

Two strokes replaced 4 strokes in the past because they were lighter, simpler and more powerful. They still are. You don't think history will repeat itself? It would bring more people into and back to this sport. I keep hearing all this bullshit about wanting to "grow" the sport. What easier way than to come up with realistic displacement rules? People are starting to avoid the four strokes more and more. Can't be a good thing.
kaboom645 wrote:
The older I get , the only thing I see that the powers to be want to grow is their wallet...More media, more outside sponsors, and...
The older I get , the only thing I see that the powers to be want to grow is their wallet...More media, more outside sponsors, and more catering to the upper class since they have the money to buy and maintain a 4 stroke. Eventually they will milk this cow for what its worth, and move on to the next big thing, but in the process nothing will be left of this sport. The "core" guys will be priced out, and the yuppie posers will move on to the next big "in" thing..
You must have read "Jody's Box" from this months MXA he said the same thing with mor ewords of course but you are 100% right about that.
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newmann 6/16/2010 5:58pm
6/16/2010 5:58pm
panic revver wrote:
WTF? You haven't said 1/8th ton pig yet.
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350 lbs. before the decade is over. So what would that make them then? China already has a replacement for the CRF450 at 285 lbs dry weight as it seems Honda is no longer interested in the MX market. They cut out competitive kids bikes with the 85 and they killed off their 125. What's next, they only make 2 mx bikes now? That makes MX such a small part of their lineup, would it really hurt them to chop those two as well?
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bigborefan 6/16/2010 6:29pm
6/16/2010 6:29pm
Great post. Now just wait for BobbyM and the gang to tee off on you.
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scooter5002 6/16/2010 6:33pm
6/16/2010 6:33pm
Ok, big bore THANKS FOR THAT! You gotta warn me when you're going to post shit like that cuz I just launched my supper all over the screen. LMFAO!
panic revver 6/16/2010 6:37pm
6/16/2010 6:37pm
panic revver wrote:
WTF? You haven't said 1/8th ton pig yet.
newmann wrote:
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350...
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350 lbs. before the decade is over. So what would that make them then? China already has a replacement for the CRF450 at 285 lbs dry weight as it seems Honda is no longer interested in the MX market. They cut out competitive kids bikes with the 85 and they killed off their 125. What's next, they only make 2 mx bikes now? That makes MX such a small part of their lineup, would it really hurt them to chop those two as well?
LOL You make me laugh. Ever increasing weight? Yep Honda is done and the Backfire is taking the CRF450's place. Honda makes the 2 bikes that the pro's race and it seems they do it very well. I am not sure how your math or logic works but if they are only making 2 bikes and BOTH of those bikes are MX bikes so that IS their line up, so how does that make MX a small part of their lineup? Are bikes the biggest part of Kawi, Suz, or Yami's lineup?
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Flatliner 6/16/2010 7:03pm
6/16/2010 7:03pm
kevin204 wrote:
You want to go back in time? Sounds about right for a 2 stroke lover actually.
hey I bought into the 4 stroke hype and have owned a crf and rmz 250, the latter one being brand new after dropping serious money on parts alone wit the honda. I wouldn't want to even think what it would have cost me to have a shop do it. I couldn't cut the seats, everything else I did myself.

That being said I miss the simplicity of a two stroke top end, and theres something to be said for a well running 250 two stroke. When (not if) ktm fuel injects it, i'll own one.
YellowZonker 6/16/2010 7:17pm
6/16/2010 7:17pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:26pm
In the KX 125 article in this month's MXA, Mitch Payton said it takes 4x as much R&D money for the 4 strokes compared to when they ran 125s. That's a pretty significant difference!
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newmann 6/16/2010 7:29pm
6/16/2010 7:29pm
panic revver wrote:
WTF? You haven't said 1/8th ton pig yet.
newmann wrote:
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350...
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350 lbs. before the decade is over. So what would that make them then? China already has a replacement for the CRF450 at 285 lbs dry weight as it seems Honda is no longer interested in the MX market. They cut out competitive kids bikes with the 85 and they killed off their 125. What's next, they only make 2 mx bikes now? That makes MX such a small part of their lineup, would it really hurt them to chop those two as well?
panic revver wrote:
LOL You make me laugh. Ever increasing weight? Yep Honda is done and the Backfire is taking the CRF450's place. Honda makes the 2 bikes that...
LOL You make me laugh. Ever increasing weight? Yep Honda is done and the Backfire is taking the CRF450's place. Honda makes the 2 bikes that the pro's race and it seems they do it very well. I am not sure how your math or logic works but if they are only making 2 bikes and BOTH of those bikes are MX bikes so that IS their line up, so how does that make MX a small part of their lineup? Are bikes the biggest part of Kawi, Suz, or Yami's lineup?
Just wanted to give you something to piss, moan and bellyache about. Looks like it worked pretty well.Smile

Serious question for you. Would you offer up a bike for someone to ride the nationals on?
newmann
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newmann 6/16/2010 7:33pm
6/16/2010 7:33pm
And about my math and logic, you make it sound as if Honda builds nothing but 2 mx bikes. Go Google "Honda" and you'll see they make a whole lot of other stuff. LMAO!!
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Ryno784 6/16/2010 7:50pm
6/16/2010 7:50pm
newmann wrote:
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on...
Nope, just looking for a realistic 2 stroke allowance in 250 pro racing. Some of us might actually want to help put a bike out on the track. Just not willing to piss away a bunch of cash on a time bomb of a 250F at that level.

Two strokes replaced 4 strokes in the past because they were lighter, simpler and more powerful. They still are. You don't think history will repeat itself? It would bring more people into and back to this sport. I keep hearing all this bullshit about wanting to "grow" the sport. What easier way than to come up with realistic displacement rules? People are starting to avoid the four strokes more and more. Can't be a good thing.
kaboom645 wrote:
The older I get , the only thing I see that the powers to be want to grow is their wallet...More media, more outside sponsors, and...
The older I get , the only thing I see that the powers to be want to grow is their wallet...More media, more outside sponsors, and more catering to the upper class since they have the money to buy and maintain a 4 stroke. Eventually they will milk this cow for what its worth, and move on to the next big thing, but in the process nothing will be left of this sport. The "core" guys will be priced out, and the yuppie posers will move on to the next big "in" thing..
I think you have it pretty close right here. Working in the industry, and selling bikes, the loss of the 50PW and TTR50 as well as the 50 ATV from Yamaha means to me that they may be giving up on this segment. If they don't build a 50cc rider into a 65 or 85, who's gonna ride the 450F someday or even switch over and ride the larger street bike, which is where the majority of the margins are made....

I think the big four are making a huge mistake and there may just be a Chinese company come in with a competitive low-priced alternative for us all someday and turn everything around again. Who knows, my 2 cents... (But look at the exhaust pipe on the Yamaha 90 ATV, you'll see what I mean)

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observer
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observer 6/16/2010 7:56pm
6/16/2010 7:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:26pm
newmann wrote:
And about my math and logic, you make it sound as if Honda builds nothing but 2 mx bikes. Go Google "Honda" and you'll see they...
And about my math and logic, you make it sound as if Honda builds nothing but 2 mx bikes. Go Google "Honda" and you'll see they make a whole lot of other stuff. LMAO!!
That's a fact.
But I'd bet there profit margin(American Honda, not nec the Honda dealer) is pretty fat on MX bikes, vs the others. Look at what you get for 8000 bucks in a street bike(yeah, I know the sport tours are running a grand or two more, but God, look at the difference in technology, parts,etc-what you get!)
Know what I mean??
panic revver 6/16/2010 7:57pm
6/16/2010 7:57pm
newmann wrote:
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350...
Well, at the rate they are going that comment will be as obsolete as a 2 stroke. The ever increasing weight will have them pushing 350 lbs. before the decade is over. So what would that make them then? China already has a replacement for the CRF450 at 285 lbs dry weight as it seems Honda is no longer interested in the MX market. They cut out competitive kids bikes with the 85 and they killed off their 125. What's next, they only make 2 mx bikes now? That makes MX such a small part of their lineup, would it really hurt them to chop those two as well?
panic revver wrote:
LOL You make me laugh. Ever increasing weight? Yep Honda is done and the Backfire is taking the CRF450's place. Honda makes the 2 bikes that...
LOL You make me laugh. Ever increasing weight? Yep Honda is done and the Backfire is taking the CRF450's place. Honda makes the 2 bikes that the pro's race and it seems they do it very well. I am not sure how your math or logic works but if they are only making 2 bikes and BOTH of those bikes are MX bikes so that IS their line up, so how does that make MX a small part of their lineup? Are bikes the biggest part of Kawi, Suz, or Yami's lineup?
newmann wrote:
Just wanted to give you something to piss, moan and bellyache about. Looks like it worked pretty well.:) Serious question for you. Would you offer up...
Just wanted to give you something to piss, moan and bellyache about. Looks like it worked pretty well.Smile

Serious question for you. Would you offer up a bike for someone to ride the nationals on?
LOL Ya I am all worked up man cuz I care so much. I am thinking about starting a whining, moaning thread like you do once a week and post about 5 posts per day about the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke or the unfair rules. We get it already newmann, we really do.

If it were someone that I knew and someone that I thought REALLY needed me to step up with a bike, then yes I would. But if he and his daddy are driving nice brand new 3/4 ton lifted trucks and either driving a bus or pulling a huge ass toy hauler to the races, NO chance. Racing isn't a poor mans sport in any realm.

As for the Honda thing, ya I figured you would go there after I put the other manufacturers out there. BUT I know you got my point.
bd
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bd 6/16/2010 7:59pm
6/16/2010 7:59pm
AGREED! A 175T or 180T would perfect in the 250F class. Additionally, a 350T or 360T in the 450F class would rock. Brrrp!
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newmann 6/16/2010 9:08pm
6/16/2010 9:08pm
bd wrote:
AGREED! A 175T or 180T would perfect in the 250F class. Additionally, a 350T or 360T in the 450F class would rock. Brrrp!
That's all I was getting at with this topic, a realistic number for the 250 class. But you always have someone that has to bring the 450 into the 250 equation. Panic Revver just couldn't pass up the opportunity to talk about those "1/8th ton pigs" (as he called them).Smile
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newmann 6/16/2010 9:08pm
6/16/2010 9:08pm Edited Date/Time 6/16/2010 9:09pm
bd wrote:
AGREED! A 175T or 180T would perfect in the 250F class. Additionally, a 350T or 360T in the 450F class would rock. Brrrp!
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mooch 6/16/2010 9:19pm
6/16/2010 9:19pm Edited Date/Time 6/16/2010 9:19pm
panic revver wrote:
LOL Ya I am all worked up man cuz I care so much. I am thinking about starting a whining, moaning thread like you do once...
LOL Ya I am all worked up man cuz I care so much. I am thinking about starting a whining, moaning thread like you do once a week and post about 5 posts per day about the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke or the unfair rules. We get it already newmann, we really do.

If it were someone that I knew and someone that I thought REALLY needed me to step up with a bike, then yes I would. But if he and his daddy are driving nice brand new 3/4 ton lifted trucks and either driving a bus or pulling a huge ass toy hauler to the races, NO chance. Racing isn't a poor mans sport in any realm.

As for the Honda thing, ya I figured you would go there after I put the other manufacturers out there. BUT I know you got my point.
No need to start a "whining" thread...you're doing fine with that in this one.
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mxrose3 6/16/2010 9:23pm
6/16/2010 9:23pm
bd wrote:
AGREED! A 175T or 180T would perfect in the 250F class. Additionally, a 350T or 360T in the 450F class would rock. Brrrp!
X3
panic revver 6/16/2010 9:49pm
6/16/2010 9:49pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:26pm
panic revver wrote:
LOL Ya I am all worked up man cuz I care so much. I am thinking about starting a whining, moaning thread like you do once...
LOL Ya I am all worked up man cuz I care so much. I am thinking about starting a whining, moaning thread like you do once a week and post about 5 posts per day about the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke or the unfair rules. We get it already newmann, we really do.

If it were someone that I knew and someone that I thought REALLY needed me to step up with a bike, then yes I would. But if he and his daddy are driving nice brand new 3/4 ton lifted trucks and either driving a bus or pulling a huge ass toy hauler to the races, NO chance. Racing isn't a poor mans sport in any realm.

As for the Honda thing, ya I figured you would go there after I put the other manufacturers out there. BUT I know you got my point.
mooch wrote:
No need to start a "whining" thread...you're doing fine with that in this one.
That was whining huh? Sure thing Capt'n. Obviously you don't read much on here.


BTW, what is what you are doing called?
newmann
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newmann 6/17/2010 6:41am
6/17/2010 6:41am
panic revver wrote:
That was whining huh? Sure thing Capt'n. Obviously you don't read much on here.


BTW, what is what you are doing called?
Clarifying.


And Mooch has been around long before you.
panic revver 6/17/2010 7:42am
6/17/2010 7:42am
panic revver wrote:
That was whining huh? Sure thing Capt'n. Obviously you don't read much on here.


BTW, what is what you are doing called?
newmann wrote:
Clarifying.


And Mooch has been around long before you.
Are you mooch too? Clarifying LOL. Who said anything about time frame of being here. Read it again and try to comprehend it better this time.

FYI I was here around the same time mooch joined, longevity on a board means dick anyway, unless you are bobbym and can't stay more than a couple days after you get clicked.
kaboom645 6/17/2010 7:53am
6/17/2010 7:53am
Personally, I dont want to see the small bike class grow any larger than a 125cc 2 stroke..If anything bring the 4stroke cc limit down to 200 or so cc's.. The 125 was a proven stepping stone for riders just comming off 80's and to learn the ropes by first year pro's..Its, light,has easy to manage power, cheap to maintain, and teaches essential skills like keeping a bike in the meat of the powerband, and maintaining momentum.... Look at the 250F's, at most SX's they do every jump the 450's do...Add to that, their weight is close to that of a 250 2 stroke( which up until about 5 yrs ago was the displacement choice for most experienced riders). There is no way in hell my son will move from an 80cc straight to a 250f. It is simply to much bike
newmann
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newmann 6/17/2010 8:25am
6/17/2010 8:25am
kaboom645 wrote:
Personally, I dont want to see the small bike class grow any larger than a 125cc 2 stroke..If anything bring the 4stroke cc limit down to...
Personally, I dont want to see the small bike class grow any larger than a 125cc 2 stroke..If anything bring the 4stroke cc limit down to 200 or so cc's.. The 125 was a proven stepping stone for riders just comming off 80's and to learn the ropes by first year pro's..Its, light,has easy to manage power, cheap to maintain, and teaches essential skills like keeping a bike in the meat of the powerband, and maintaining momentum.... Look at the 250F's, at most SX's they do every jump the 450's do...Add to that, their weight is close to that of a 250 2 stroke( which up until about 5 yrs ago was the displacement choice for most experienced riders). There is no way in hell my son will move from an 80cc straight to a 250f. It is simply to much bike
The 250 class is a done deal and the mistakes have already been made. I don't see anyone scaling back on the cc's of the 4 stroke 250's to try and level the playing field. A 125 can be bored and stroked to come up with a larger displacement to be competitive with the 4 strokes for about the same money as Pro-Circuit head work on a modern thunper. I'd just like to see a realistic number for pro racing to allow lesser funded teams and riders to get out there.

As for the 125cc class, I totally agree. Killing off that class has to be the worst mistake in MX. Mitch Payton himself said kids going from 80's to heavy, hard to start 250cc four strokes was not a good idea. The 125 class needs to come back. But let's not kid ourselves that the 250 class is going anywhere.

Needs to be back to 125, 250 and open classes in one form or another.

Post a reply to: Since the Big 4 won't allow 250cc vs 250cc, how about