Should the second moto gates be full at a National

The Rock
Profile picture for user The Rock
Posts
8763
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
The Rock
Edited Date/Time 12/16/2012 10:39pm
My vote is for alternates to take the open slots provided their qualifying time is within a to be determined percentage of the 40th qualifiers.

Below is an exchange GuyB and I had in another thread on this same subject.


GuyB wrote: I guarantee that the slowest guy at any National would smoke me. But this is the highest level of racing, and it's pretty cut and dry. You make it, or you don't. Same goes for NASCAR, Indycar, etc. We don't (or at least haven't yet) started handing out participation ribbons.

From 1-41, the range looks like about nine-12 seconds a lap in the 450 class, and more for the 250s. Add a second or two for the guys from 41-50.

Here's a random sampling from this year's Nationals.

Hangtown
450 Top qualifier, James Stewart: 1:58.579
41st, Preston Mull: 2:07.258
50th, Collin Jurin: 2:08.248

250 Top qualifier, Blake Baggett: 2:00.696
41st, Travis Bright: 2:12.625
50th, John Pauk: 2:15.572

Thunder Valley
450 top qualifier, James Stewart: 2:04.221
41st, Austin Howell: 2:13.131
50th, Cole Shondeck: 2:14.300

250 top qualifier, Eli Tomac: 2:06.617
41st, John Pauk: 2:19.804
50th, Brandon Gillespie, 2:24.719

Budds Creek
450 top qualifier, Ryan Dungey: 1:58.838
41st, Dustin Pipes: 2:08.745
50th, Tucker Saye: 2:12.497

250 top qualifier, Justin Barcia: 1:58.999
41st, Levi Kilbarger: 2:11.343
50th, Greg Durivage: 2:13.397

Millville
450 top qualifier, Ryan Dungey: 2:08.293
41st, Michael Stryker: 2:18.203
50th, Joey Olson: 2:22.329

250 top qualifier, Ken Roczen: 2:08.150
41st, Mitch Dougherty: 2:19.882
50th, Bracken Hall: 2:22.626

Southwick
450 top qualifier, Broc Tickle: 1:57.325
41st, Jake Abbott: 2:03.301
50th, Frantisek Smola: 2:04.200

250 top qualifier, Eli Tomac: 1:58.914
41st, David Butler: 2:07.945
50th, Tony Archer: 2:09.357

The Rock wrote: Thanks for this information but I wish it was more applicable since no one suggested drafting ten riders into a moto.

If you have the time looking at the 41st to 45th qualifiers times are much better comparison.
|
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35699
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
988th
GuyB 11/20/2012 6:01pm
11/20/2012 6:01pm
I like underdogs. I like privateers. I like the idea that you can still drive to the Nationals in a pickup and try to qualify.

I also like that there are 40 qualifiers. Yes, sometimes there are empty gates when they line up for the second motos. People crash, bikes break. that's nothing new. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a "problem" that needs to be solved.
Stanton876 11/20/2012 6:07pm
11/20/2012 6:07pm Edited Date/Time 11/20/2012 6:07pm
Because someone cried about the GP's so he's here to make the hypocrite argument.

That's my guess anyway. I'm sure ill be told not to put words in his mouth.
The Rock
Profile picture for user The Rock
Posts
8763
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
The Rock 11/20/2012 6:07pm
11/20/2012 6:07pm
This actually isn't suddenly a "problem" as Feld has been addressing this issue for a season or two at SX races with an alternate rider process. It doesn't just happen by itself and requires resources but getting alternates into the field in today's world of smart phones is something that can be accomplished if desired.
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35699
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
988th
GuyB 11/20/2012 6:10pm
11/20/2012 6:10pm
Man, smart phones must be smarter than I thought.

The Shop

See All »
bents
Profile picture for user bents
Posts
3282
Joined
12/31/2009
Location
CA
Fantasy
710th
bents 11/20/2012 6:13pm
11/20/2012 6:13pm
I think Rock has a great point. Fill up the 2nd moto and give those guys some experience. Maybe they can make some dough and turn some of their hard work and sacrifice into something tangible.
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35699
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
988th
GuyB 11/20/2012 6:20pm
11/20/2012 6:20pm
When you're missing 1-2 guys off of a 20-man gate (vs. 40), it's obviously a larger percentage of the field. You're also dealing with qualifiers, and one main instead of two motos. I'm not sure comparing against the outdoors is exactly apples to apples.
bents
Profile picture for user bents
Posts
3282
Joined
12/31/2009
Location
CA
Fantasy
710th
bents 11/20/2012 6:52pm
11/20/2012 6:52pm
Understood GuyB, but wouldn't it benefit those lucky few just the same regardless if it was sx or mx?
lappedrider
Profile picture for user lappedrider
Posts
868
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Tooele, UT US
lappedrider 11/20/2012 7:03pm
11/20/2012 7:03pm
I am not sure the guys missing on qualifying are going to wait around on the chance they may get to run the second moto.
slipdog
Profile picture for user slipdog
Posts
10044
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Nor Cal, CA US
slipdog 11/20/2012 7:05pm
11/20/2012 7:05pm
No they shouldn't!

If you don't make the cut for the first moto, game over and better luck next time.
DC
Profile picture for user DC
Posts
3890
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV US
DC 11/20/2012 7:15pm
11/20/2012 7:15pm Edited Date/Time 11/20/2012 7:16pm
It's not a problem, at least not for the 41 years that this series has been running.

There are four back-ups from the LCQ (remember those?) that are invited to bring their bikes and gear to staging in case one of the 40 riders who made the national either don't show or have a problem on the sighting lap of the first moto. It rarely happens but sometimes guys are placed just before the start.

But after that, the race is closed. The 40 men and machines that start the first moto are the only 40 allowed to start the second moto. They earned the right to race, and they raced. Some do not finish; that's the nature of motorsports.

This is not a problem in Supercross either. They have one main event. No one gets to line up after the race starts, even when it starts over on a red flag like the LA SX.

DC
MX Sports
Highsider
Profile picture for user Highsider
Posts
7680
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Way Toasty, IA US
Highsider 11/20/2012 7:17pm
11/20/2012 7:17pm Edited Date/Time 11/20/2012 7:19pm
slipdog wrote:
No they shouldn't!

If you don't make the cut for the first moto, game over and better luck next time.
Agreed! ^ ^ ^
I have been around the Nationals for many, many years and having a few empty gates second moto is just how things work, or don't.
fader418
Profile picture for user fader418
Posts
2832
Joined
9/14/2009
Location
Lake Forest, CA US
fader418 11/20/2012 7:36pm
11/20/2012 7:36pm
If I am understanding this correctly this makes no sense. So a guy that hasn't been on the track since practice is gonna line up for the 2nd moto? The track is way rougher than practice. Those guys would just get hurt
PRM31
Profile picture for user PRM31
Posts
2136
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA US
PRM31 11/20/2012 7:43pm
11/20/2012 7:43pm
What's another rider or two going to matter with a 40-man field? There's probably 10 guys just cruising by the 3/4 point of the second moto anyway. Pulling from beyond qualifier #40 isn't going to do anything useful.
MotoX85
Profile picture for user MotoX85
Posts
2199
Joined
10/9/2011
Location
Centralia, IL US
MotoX85 11/20/2012 7:53pm
11/20/2012 7:53pm
DC wrote:
It's not a problem, at least not for the 41 years that this series has been running. There are four back-ups from the LCQ (remember those?)...
It's not a problem, at least not for the 41 years that this series has been running.

There are four back-ups from the LCQ (remember those?) that are invited to bring their bikes and gear to staging in case one of the 40 riders who made the national either don't show or have a problem on the sighting lap of the first moto. It rarely happens but sometimes guys are placed just before the start.

But after that, the race is closed. The 40 men and machines that start the first moto are the only 40 allowed to start the second moto. They earned the right to race, and they raced. Some do not finish; that's the nature of motorsports.

This is not a problem in Supercross either. They have one main event. No one gets to line up after the race starts, even when it starts over on a red flag like the LA SX.

DC
MX Sports
And it should stay this way.

NO way add riders in moto 2. Absolutely stupid idea. I'll say it for you guys since I know you have to try and be politically correct. Dumbest thing I have ever heard come out of a human, below the nose, orifice
Falcon
Profile picture for user Falcon
Posts
10108
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
Fantasy
798th
Falcon 11/20/2012 8:29pm
11/20/2012 8:29pm
All arguments aside, you should have to "qualify" for the 2nd moto by racing the first.
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35699
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
988th
GuyB 11/20/2012 10:59pm
11/20/2012 10:59pm
It does if you have an injury or bike problem tyat prevents you from riding moto two.

You've obviously spent too much time in Non-Moto, and are missing the point here. Smile
blusmbl
Profile picture for user blusmbl
Posts
1283
Joined
3/19/2012
Location
Plymouth, MI US
blusmbl 11/21/2012 3:54am
11/21/2012 3:54am
Look at how fast the bump time was at Southwick in the 450's compared to any other round in the series, it was 2-3 seconds closer to the #1 qualifier. Sand is the great equalizer, they also must have a disproportionate number of quick locals that only ride the big bikes.

Pit Row

See All »
mx317
Profile picture for user mx317
Posts
4552
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
mx317 11/21/2012 5:51am
11/21/2012 5:51am
It would also knock the guy that qualified out of the money he gets for the second moto. I don't think anyone mentioned that.
Highsider
Profile picture for user Highsider
Posts
7680
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Way Toasty, IA US
Highsider 11/21/2012 5:59am
11/21/2012 5:59am
blusmbl wrote:
Look at how fast the bump time was at Southwick in the 450's compared to any other round in the series, it was 2-3 seconds closer...
Look at how fast the bump time was at Southwick in the 450's compared to any other round in the series, it was 2-3 seconds closer to the #1 qualifier. Sand is the great equalizer, they also must have a disproportionate number of quick locals that only ride the big bikes.
Now, in English.
blusmbl
Profile picture for user blusmbl
Posts
1283
Joined
3/19/2012
Location
Plymouth, MI US
blusmbl 11/21/2012 6:21am
11/21/2012 6:21am
Highsider wrote:
Now, in English.
The difference between 1st and 41st in the 450 class is much smaller at Southwick than any other track. I thought that was pretty clear...
jndmx
Profile picture for user jndmx
Posts
9659
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
jndmx 11/21/2012 6:41am
11/21/2012 6:41am Edited Date/Time 11/21/2012 6:41am
Anyone remember the meltdown when Barcia almost collided with Dungey last year?
That was because "Justin was a fill in and not in the series points" when he almost took Dungey down.
Justin was on a team Honda ride.

Can you imagine the shitstorm when Joe Privateer that didn't run the first moto and has no chance at points gets tangled with one of the leaders while being lapped?

It should stay the way it is....40 riders qualify and race, no additional riders added later.
WhKnuckle
Profile picture for user WhKnuckle
Posts
7327
Joined
7/17/2007
Location
TX US
WhKnuckle 11/21/2012 7:11am
11/21/2012 7:11am
It would make a lot of sense, if those alternate riders were likely to make enough money riding the second moto to help. But with purses being what they are, and the fact that those guys are very unlikely to get into the top 20 in the second moto (even riding fresh), I don't know that it would help their finances much, if any. They're likely to spend more on replacing tires and bike wear and tear than they'd make for that moto.

Now, if purse money was more evenly distributed (keeping in mind that the top riders don't need the purse money as much as the lower guys do), there'd be a good reason to put them on the gate for the second moto, IMO.
Braaap14
Profile picture for user Braaap14
Posts
827
Joined
5/10/2012
Location
IL US
Braaap14 11/21/2012 8:22am
11/21/2012 8:22am Edited Date/Time 11/21/2012 8:24am
There need to be a few less lappers and stragglers..... not more of them.
motosmith
Profile picture for user motosmith
Posts
2039
Joined
11/8/2010
Location
Washougal, WA US
motosmith 11/21/2012 8:30am
11/21/2012 8:30am
DC wrote:
It's not a problem, at least not for the 41 years that this series has been running. There are four back-ups from the LCQ (remember those?)...
It's not a problem, at least not for the 41 years that this series has been running.

There are four back-ups from the LCQ (remember those?) that are invited to bring their bikes and gear to staging in case one of the 40 riders who made the national either don't show or have a problem on the sighting lap of the first moto. It rarely happens but sometimes guys are placed just before the start.

But after that, the race is closed. The 40 men and machines that start the first moto are the only 40 allowed to start the second moto. They earned the right to race, and they raced. Some do not finish; that's the nature of motorsports.

This is not a problem in Supercross either. They have one main event. No one gets to line up after the race starts, even when it starts over on a red flag like the LA SX.

DC
MX Sports
So why not make the same rule apply to the second moto? Seems it wouldn't be too difficult to implement and I see no negative side at all.
motosmith
Profile picture for user motosmith
Posts
2039
Joined
11/8/2010
Location
Washougal, WA US
motosmith 11/21/2012 8:41am
11/21/2012 8:41am
Crazy stats.

James Stewart is 1:58 and Collin Jurin 2:08. I've never heard of the guy and he's only 10 seconds slower than Stewart. Obviously the dude hauls some serious ass.

It just goes to show how fast the "slow" guys are.
bartoner
Profile picture for user bartoner
Posts
724
Joined
2/16/2011
Location
Canyon Lake, CA US
bartoner 11/21/2012 8:51am
11/21/2012 8:51am
motosmith wrote:
Crazy stats. James Stewart is 1:58 and Collin Jurin 2:08. I've never heard of the guy and he's only 10 seconds slower than Stewart. Obviously the...
Crazy stats.

James Stewart is 1:58 and Collin Jurin 2:08. I've never heard of the guy and he's only 10 seconds slower than Stewart. Obviously the dude hauls some serious ass.

It just goes to show how fast the "slow" guys are.
i was just thinking the same thing...that 10 seconds is the difference in making million$ or having to pay outta your pocket to get to each race....
slipdog
Profile picture for user slipdog
Posts
10044
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Nor Cal, CA US
slipdog 11/21/2012 8:54am
11/21/2012 8:54am
Maybe we can get DC to just give the riders that didn't qualify for the motos a blue ribbon so everyone feels good about themselves...

Yeah, that's the ticket!
DC
Profile picture for user DC
Posts
3890
Joined
5/1/2009
Location
Morgantown, WV US
DC 11/21/2012 8:57am
11/21/2012 8:57am Edited Date/Time 11/21/2012 8:58am
Motosmith, it wouldn't be difficult, but it would be problematic. One half of the race -- the first moto -- is already over, and they were not among the 40 finalists who started the actual event. The changes to the track would make for a safety and liability issue, and the fact that the inserted rider and his motorcycle are fresh from having watched the first moto doesn't seem very fair to the ones that raced 30 minutes-plus-2-laps just ninety minutes earlier....

There is no reason to change this rule, and not a single AMA Motocross-licensed rider or team manager has suggested this change. When you don't qualify, you don't qualify.

DC
MX Sports

Post a reply to: Should the second moto gates be full at a National