Should the AMA/FIM pass out black boxes

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9/22/2012 9:18 PM

As a way to lower costs/reduce top team's technical advantages over the up and comer? In car racing they pass out black boxes as a way to control the amount of tweaking the teams can do. I know a few years back the AMA was talking about the ultimate would be where they could use their PCs as the black box and test every machine with the same power settings.

Can you see handing out electronic's working in racing? Guess if they're doing it successfully with transponders they can do it for ignitions.

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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/22/2012 10:38 PM

Now you`re just talking crazy. There has been no rule enforcement for years, why should they start now?

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9/22/2012 10:41 PM

kongols wrote:

Now you`re just talking crazy. There has been no rule enforcement for years, why should they start now?

Does Kongol mean know-it-all in Latvian? I mean the web is good and all, but how can you make that claim?

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9/22/2012 10:48 PM

kongols wrote:

Now you`re just talking crazy. There has been no rule enforcement for years, why should they start now?

GuyB wrote:

Does Kongol mean know-it-all in Latvian? I mean the web is good and all, but how can you make that claim?

I`m sorry , I was mistaken. Everything happens by a letter of the law in this sport.silly

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9/22/2012 10:52 PM

I didn't claim that it's perfect, but I think it's probably a lot closer than the way you claim.

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9/22/2012 11:56 PM

No

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9/23/2012 12:15 AM

Dorna's suggestion of a control ECU to lower costs and close gaps in Moto GP hasn't gone down too well with many of the teams (unsurprisingly). That doesn't mean Ezpeleta won't push the introduction through though.

So, where MX is concerned, I would say it's unlikely to happen anytime soon, but wouldn't rule it out for the future.

As to whether or not it should occur, I am also in the 'no' camp.

AK

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9/23/2012 1:59 AM

Hell no! Half startingfield are not able to ride Villopotos horsepowers? whistling

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9/23/2012 2:05 AM

It is one of the very few ways that they'd be able to better control the way sound testing is done. There's a lot of futzing around going on with mapping and electronics when it comes to sound.

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9/23/2012 7:28 AM

It works for Nascar and one thing fans hate is the lone guy out front winning...b-o-r-i-n-g!

Photo

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9/23/2012 11:03 AM

What is this nascar? Gtfo. Black boxs wouldnt have stopped hondas tc....

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9/23/2012 11:22 AM

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing against anyone, but they've got their hands plenty full now.
They're not very savvy in the electronics direction currently, and that's
enough of an issue right there, so to blindly say; " this will solve everything"
is lame and short on depth of understanding.
To control what they clearly don't have the man power to fully understand
doesn't make sense to me.
Ignition boxes aren't even in the same zip code as a transponder!!
At some point I can envision something, but 1st things 1st..

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9/23/2012 11:32 AM

Ozzy wrote:

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing against anyone, but they've got their hands plenty full now.
They're not very savvy in the electronics direction currently, and that's
enough of an issue right there, so to blindly say; " this will solve everything"
is lame and short on depth of understanding.
To control what they clearly don't have the man power to fully understand
doesn't make sense to me.
Ignition boxes aren't even in the same zip code as a transponder!!
At some point I can envision something, but 1st things 1st..

This post says so much about AMA kitchen if you can read between lines.

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9/23/2012 11:42 AM

I can think of a lot of Ferrari fans who were adamant that F1 going to a spec ECU, made by Microsoft and used by McLaren for years previously, was a conspiracy. It's turned out to be a non issue. Things can be done correctly if the right hands handle it.

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9/23/2012 11:50 AM

I started this thread to get some discussion going and it turned out great. Any technical discussion that has Ozzy as one of the participants instantly gains street cred. Thank you Dave for chiming in but did you ever tell us what year those Yamahas were?

Please be advised I don't get to read everything on Vital so if you answered the bike question already please disregard. .

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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/23/2012 5:02 PM

Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.
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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/23/2012 5:12 PM

The Rock wrote: Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.

1. No Magic required on said bike if you simply run an HRC Map switch on the bars.

2. As I understand it we're going to be placing microphones on the track.

3. Just about any bike you buy -Stock- ...EFI models...namely...can be reprogrammed/flashed and/or run some variant of "Switiching" w/ OEM or after-market add-ons.

4. The "Real Expensive" & un-obtainable goodies are Shifting & Transmission-parts, Wonder-Clutches and even a few suspension goodies including the odd "linkage" from a few "Factories"; yet, as time marches on, these things are becoming more available.

I'm jus' sayin'...

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

9/23/2012 5:14 PM

The Rock wrote: Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.

If the motor is based around a certain mapping, couldn't a stock map cause unreliable results? Also possible damage to the motor if its too far off the map that is designed for it?

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9/23/2012 5:16 PM

The Rock wrote: Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.

ML512 wrote:

If the motor is based around a certain mapping, couldn't a stock map cause unreliable results? Also possible damage to the motor if its too far off the map that is designed for it?

Yyyyyyyyup!

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I ripped a start from Egypt and I was happy about that.

9/23/2012 5:48 PM

ML512 wrote:

If the motor is based around a certain mapping, couldn't a stock map cause unreliable results? Also possible damage to the motor if its too far off the map that is designed for it?

Yes by all means but have you ever heard a motor as quiet as one that isn't running?

Hey I'm just brainstorming here not writing policy.

Just soliciting ideas as the whole gamemanship involved in sound testing cracks me up. I will always subscribe to the belief that the right power is not always the biggest numbers. If you have a comprehensive motor program it is possible to have all the pieces off the puzzle working towards the goal of usable power that passes sound.

If I was sponsoring two 450 riders next year I would put them on piped stock motor 450s with the best suspension known to man. Would go with either Enzo Racing or MX Tech. Ross, Will and the crew walk on water and Jer Wilkey has invented a couple of trick toys over the years that make scooters soak up the bumps nicely.

I I was sponsoring two 250 riders i would take the funds I was going to spend on 250 motors and instead pay bills with it and have a four rider 450 outdoor team. With the level of engine development going on in the 250 class to me there isn't much motivation to cross swords with the legends working today.....but i do know a person or two.

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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/23/2012 5:55 PM

Here lies a lot of my thinking.
Though Rock has nothing to do with the powers that
be, correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the problem.
Random directions such as his are way way off
base. It's not like hooking up your home sound system
even though x goes into z, there's more to it.
As easy as it may be to plug such in its equally
as easy to mess it up, what then.
At such time, hopefully quailified people will be involved
with such.
Again, currently their plate runith over!
Rock, my advice, find another cause to chase!!!

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9/23/2012 5:59 PM

The Rock wrote: Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.

I'm confused, is the your black box idea supposed to level the playing field, or is it just reverting back to your passion to muffling a professional motorsport?

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9/23/2012 10:11 PM

The Rock wrote: Is this the future of AMA/FIM sound test procedure:

Chad Reed's mechanic rolls his bike into sound testing with gas tank loose. Few quick adjustments and Tool Time Tim takes out the certified PC and becomes the machine's blackbox . Tim pulls up the CRF450R standard mapping and one without neutral position sensor input. 2 M Max test is passed and PC is unplugged.

Race team is then welcome to run any electronics they want too but the onus is on them not the AMA/FIM for them to pass post race sound tests. Bottom line is the electronics is making the game even more interesting to me. Another thing that is helping is the awareness the rider is the biggest component in the equation and less motor set up and more suspension set up. It's all important don't get me wrong but the person twisting the throttle is the biggest variable...always has been always will in MX racing.

With the advent of mapping I saw what i view as on over reliance on electronics by at least one team. There might be more probably are but I am only going from personal experience.

ML512 wrote:

If the motor is based around a certain mapping, couldn't a stock map cause unreliable results? Also possible damage to the motor if its too far off the map that is designed for it?

The Rock wrote:

Yes by all means but have you ever heard a motor as quiet as one that isn't running?

Hey I'm just brainstorming here not writing policy.

Just soliciting ideas as the whole gamemanship involved in sound testing cracks me up. I will always subscribe to the belief that the right power is not always the biggest numbers. If you have a comprehensive motor program it is possible to have all the pieces off the puzzle working towards the goal of usable power that passes sound.

If I was sponsoring two 450 riders next year I would put them on piped stock motor 450s with the best suspension known to man. Would go with either Enzo Racing or MX Tech. Ross, Will and the crew walk on water and Jer Wilkey has invented a couple of trick toys over the years that make scooters soak up the bumps nicely.

I I was sponsoring two 250 riders i would take the funds I was going to spend on 250 motors and instead pay bills with it and have a four rider 450 outdoor team. With the level of engine development going on in the 250 class to me there isn't much motivation to cross swords with the legends working today.....but i do know a person or two.

I'll tell Ross your kind wordswink unless he has already read thislaughing

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9/24/2012 1:21 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/24/2012 1:34 AM

As I adjust the Rossi Try Hard bracelet around my right wrist I am reminded of my friend Ross Maeda. It was an innocent remark on my part "walk on water" but Ross works so hard and in my mind I see him walking again.

To ozzy and tobz....chill brahs. I'm just over here thinking about technical issues and the future wondering what could be done to eliminate the gamesmanship that goes on with sound testing from an electronics standpoint.

And one more thing tobz you are using dated material RE: me wanting to muffle the sport. tI wasn't true before and it isn't true now. Talk to the FIM not me as they are the forward thinkers sound wise. I give them props for everything they're doing but I don't work for the FIM. The sport is definitely quieter now and that works for me. The 112 db step caught me off guard and I have to find out if there is another drop and if so when. I can't see them getting below 110 to 112.

I just wrote a paragraph and deleted it. I talked about what a friend of mine is doing to skirt sound but I can't write about it since the guy is my buddy.

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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/24/2012 8:31 PM

Photo
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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/24/2012 9:31 PM

Ok, lets say they do hand out black boxes at each round...what happens when one of them shits out? The OEMs have so much invested at this level, can they really risk all that on a black box that they get handed a couple hours before the race and told "it's all good"

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9/24/2012 10:16 PM
Edited Date/Time: 9/24/2012 10:24 PM

MtnBoy wrote:

Ok, lets say they do hand out black boxes at each round...what happens when one of them shits out? The OEMs have so much invested at this level, can they really risk all that on a black box that they get handed a couple hours before the race and told "it's all good"

The AMA has enough on their hands. Also please look at the subject line Should the AMA//FIM pass out black boxes question.

So far it seems like the answer is a resounding NO. Works for me. To be clear I wasn't suggesting this idea be adopted only soliciting feedback. Mission accomplished.

EDIT Honda of Troy got used factory works ignitions in the mid 90s. Believe two were lost in National competition. I know for sure Brownie suffered a rare Troy Racing mechanical DNF when one failed at Hangtown on his Honda of Troy CR125 Fifth Dragon machine circa 95

Excellent point about liability issues....amazing they do it in other forms of racing..

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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani

9/24/2012 10:22 PM

I like the idea

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9/24/2012 11:19 PM

Ozzy wrote:

Here lies a lot of my thinking.
Though Rock has nothing to do with the powers that
be, correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the problem.
Random directions such as his are way way off
base. It's not like hooking up your home sound system
even though x goes into z, there's more to it.
As easy as it may be to plug such in its equally
as easy to mess it up, what then.
At such time, hopefully quailified people will be involved
with such.
Again, currently their plate runith over!
Rock, my advice, find another cause to chase!!!

Ozzy hit it spot on! In todays world of mx racing the AMA is better off to focus on what they have on there plate currently.


Rock,
At the top level the amount of tuning the big teams do is HUGE and simply put many teams are off in sooo many directions a standard ecu is insane. Think about the small guy who does not have the extra money to afford a $750-$1000 ECU does he not race? I know you are all for lower sound but do you still think the current sound level as a whole is still to high? If they keep lowering the sound level the only people who will win is the packing companies as the exhaust temps will get so high even the best packing will only last a moto!

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9/25/2012 2:56 AM
Edited Date/Time: 9/25/2012 3:00 AM

I know you are all for lower sound but do you still think the current sound level as a whole is still to high? If they keep lowering the sound level the only people who will win is the packing companies as the exhaust temps will get so high even the best packing will only last a moto!

You missed the post earlier in the year where I said I was fine with the 115 db 2 M Max test I take it? Another member was shocked I wasn't calling for lower sound levels. Been there done that and once was enough.

BTW I do look forward to hearing 112 db at A1 in 2014.

PS Maybe you should get your packing from a company with the quality of products than will always last multiple motos regardless of sound levels. Please let me know if you need high quality made in USA muffler packing materials.......I know some people who know some people and will hook you up.
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"My philosophy is to have a really good time and never to let anything stop me from doing what I want to do.

Michel Petrucciani