Shimming the KTM Swingarm

smrscott
Profile picture for user smrscott
Posts
380
Joined
12/15/2009
Location
Tustin, CA US
smrscott 2/23/2017 1:15pm
2/23/2017 1:15pm
Shimming is not anything new - I used to see Media Press Bikes (non KTM) back in the steel frame days have shims in all sorts of places to avoid binding the frame. Swing arm pivots were the most likely place to find them - sometimes on either side or even between the engine cases and the swing arm on the inside. Not totally sure if it changed the handling that much but if you can not have your frame in a bind before it flexes as it is intended might be the reason.
brocsdad
Profile picture for user brocsdad
Posts
922
Joined
8/9/2010
Location
Thompsons Station, TN US
brocsdad 2/23/2017 2:09pm
2/23/2017 2:09pm
mxtech1 wrote:
It blows my mind that people might have the impression that the KTM Engineers have overlooked a design flaw like this. I can guarantee you all...
It blows my mind that people might have the impression that the KTM Engineers have overlooked a design flaw like this.

I can guarantee you all there is a specific reason why the product was designed to have the tolerance it does coming from the factory.

Off the top of my head, I am thinking that it might be true that there is in fact play at the swingarm pivot point while the bike is unloaded and on the stand. But what happens when a rider is aboard and on the track, loading the suspension and frame?? I'm fairly confident in assuming that the frame flexes at the swing arm pivot while loaded and due the the constant side forces the back wheel feels, the nominal tolerance (perceived looseness) is required to prevent binding under a load.

Thoughts???
mx216 wrote:
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is...
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is something wrong. I use .5mm shims installed inside the collar to butt up against the bushing. This holds the shims in place without any effort. Most bikes require only .5 or 1mm to tighten it up. Since doing it the swingarm pivot bolts don't come loose near as often. Also, when doing, make sure only to shim the brake side. If you shim the chain side you will throw your chain alignment off.
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim the left side to take out the play.
Tracktor
Profile picture for user Tracktor
Posts
2344
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
Tracktor 2/23/2017 2:17pm
2/23/2017 2:17pm
Good thread. I ordered some shims for our 85's just in case. The part numbers on the bags aren't the correct ones for the catalog though-

98089A270 are the .2mm
98089A354 are the .5mm

brocsdad
Profile picture for user brocsdad
Posts
922
Joined
8/9/2010
Location
Thompsons Station, TN US
brocsdad 2/23/2017 2:20pm
2/23/2017 2:20pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2017 2:22pm
Tracktor wrote:
Good thread. I ordered some shims for our 85's just in case. The part numbers on the bags aren't the correct ones for the catalog though-...
Good thread. I ordered some shims for our 85's just in case. The part numbers on the bags aren't the correct ones for the catalog though-

98089A270 are the .2mm
98089A354 are the .5mm

They were given to me brand new in unopened bags so I posted the numbers. Nihilo sells the 85 shims.

The Shop

See All »
Tracktor
Profile picture for user Tracktor
Posts
2344
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
The RTF/Amboy, WA US
Tracktor 2/23/2017 2:28pm
2/23/2017 2:28pm
Tracktor wrote:
Good thread. I ordered some shims for our 85's just in case. The part numbers on the bags aren't the correct ones for the catalog though-...
Good thread. I ordered some shims for our 85's just in case. The part numbers on the bags aren't the correct ones for the catalog though-

98089A270 are the .2mm
98089A354 are the .5mm

brocsdad wrote:
They were given to me brand new in unopened bags so I posted the numbers. Nihilo sells the 85 shims.
I just meant if you search the Mcmaster Carr website those numbers won't come up. I posted their numbers......
mx216
Profile picture for user mx216
Posts
729
Joined
3/21/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
mx216 2/23/2017 2:30pm
2/23/2017 2:30pm
mxtech1 wrote:
It blows my mind that people might have the impression that the KTM Engineers have overlooked a design flaw like this. I can guarantee you all...
It blows my mind that people might have the impression that the KTM Engineers have overlooked a design flaw like this.

I can guarantee you all there is a specific reason why the product was designed to have the tolerance it does coming from the factory.

Off the top of my head, I am thinking that it might be true that there is in fact play at the swingarm pivot point while the bike is unloaded and on the stand. But what happens when a rider is aboard and on the track, loading the suspension and frame?? I'm fairly confident in assuming that the frame flexes at the swing arm pivot while loaded and due the the constant side forces the back wheel feels, the nominal tolerance (perceived looseness) is required to prevent binding under a load.

Thoughts???
mx216 wrote:
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is...
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is something wrong. I use .5mm shims installed inside the collar to butt up against the bushing. This holds the shims in place without any effort. Most bikes require only .5 or 1mm to tighten it up. Since doing it the swingarm pivot bolts don't come loose near as often. Also, when doing, make sure only to shim the brake side. If you shim the chain side you will throw your chain alignment off.
brocsdad wrote:
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim...
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim the left side to take out the play.
If you shim the left side you will offset the sprockets. By taking up the extra space on the right hand side of the bike you do not mess with sprocket alignment. This is why when doing this you should have a completely loose chassis. I personally prefer to torque the chassis before installing items like the exhaust so that everything is free to float when the bike is placed under its own weight and finds its happy place before torquing.
BobPA
Profile picture for user BobPA
Posts
8028
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
BobPA 2/23/2017 3:44pm
2/23/2017 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2017 3:44pm
My swingarm is perfectly tight after almost 200 hours. Just checked it after reading this thread.
reded
Profile picture for user reded
Posts
3685
Joined
3/26/2011
Location
KS US
reded 2/23/2017 4:10pm
2/23/2017 4:10pm
My '14 was tight as well. Seems like this may be getting blown way out of proportion.......no pun intended.
Markee
Profile picture for user Markee
Posts
3544
Joined
4/15/2013
Location
Suffolk, VA US
Fantasy
1941st
Markee 2/23/2017 4:24pm
2/23/2017 4:24pm
Skerby wrote:
This is where extreme weight saving measures get you. It's not always pretty.
This is a interesting comment. Care to elaborate?
C-Rock
Profile picture for user C-Rock
Posts
353
Joined
4/19/2016
Location
FR
C-Rock 2/23/2017 4:41pm
2/23/2017 4:41pm
Markee wrote:
This is a interesting comment. Care to elaborate?
In the last few years, some models spokes or bar clamps, for instance, were so light they were really weak...
BobPA
Profile picture for user BobPA
Posts
8028
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
BobPA 2/23/2017 4:56pm
2/23/2017 4:56pm
C-Rock wrote:
In the last few years, some models spokes or bar clamps, for instance, were so light they were really weak...
Bar clamps? Though that was circa 2003
C-Rock
Profile picture for user C-Rock
Posts
353
Joined
4/19/2016
Location
FR
C-Rock 2/23/2017 5:57pm
2/23/2017 5:57pm
Oops, they did it again.
First batch last year...
The guy at my shop told me half his clients with new SXFs bent them and he had one himself with the bike just falling down in the showroom.
Bruce372
Profile picture for user Bruce372
Posts
6341
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Bruce372 2/23/2017 6:10pm
2/23/2017 6:10pm
So ktm have had recalls with loose crank nuts, and loose fork pistons? Those are the scary ones since you have no way of knowing .

Check yer nuts people!
BobPA
Profile picture for user BobPA
Posts
8028
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
BobPA 2/23/2017 6:25pm
2/23/2017 6:25pm
C-Rock wrote:
Oops, they did it again. First batch last year... The guy at my shop told me half his clients with new SXFs bent them and he...
Oops, they did it again.
First batch last year...
The guy at my shop told me half his clients with new SXFs bent them and he had one himself with the bike just falling down in the showroom.
kiwifan is that you?

A bike breaking in the showroom? Better never buy a Katoom
Motoxtombo
Profile picture for user Motoxtombo
Posts
1036
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Holyoke, MA US
Motoxtombo 2/23/2017 6:48pm
2/23/2017 6:48pm
Years ago I broke a couple swingarm shafts on my KTM ,I found it had excess clearance like mentioned by the OP,I shimmed the swingarm and I never had another problem,It took away a lot of vibration too.
aees
Profile picture for user aees
Posts
1556
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
US
aees 2/23/2017 7:08pm
2/23/2017 7:08pm
Can someone write what shim and placement of it, that is valid for SXF 450 2017? See attached image. Both sides needed to shim?



Skerby
Profile picture for user Skerby
Posts
1254
Joined
4/9/2013
Location
Mayes County, OK US
Skerby 2/24/2017 8:04am
2/24/2017 8:04am
Skerby wrote:
This is where extreme weight saving measures get you. It's not always pretty.
Markee wrote:
This is a interesting comment. Care to elaborate?
Just bored at work, I understand that the weight difference between a steel case insert and no insert is basically nothing. I just felt like someone was going to make a comment along those lines and figured I might as well be the lowest common denominator.
jeffro503
Profile picture for user jeffro503
Posts
27442
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
jeffro503 2/24/2017 8:13am
2/24/2017 8:13am
mx216 wrote:
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is...
The swingarm shouldn't be loose at any point. If there is tightening or loosening of the load on the bearings as the swingarm travels there is something wrong. I use .5mm shims installed inside the collar to butt up against the bushing. This holds the shims in place without any effort. Most bikes require only .5 or 1mm to tighten it up. Since doing it the swingarm pivot bolts don't come loose near as often. Also, when doing, make sure only to shim the brake side. If you shim the chain side you will throw your chain alignment off.
brocsdad wrote:
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim...
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim the left side to take out the play.
mx216 wrote:
If you shim the left side you will offset the sprockets. By taking up the extra space on the right hand side of the bike you...
If you shim the left side you will offset the sprockets. By taking up the extra space on the right hand side of the bike you do not mess with sprocket alignment. This is why when doing this you should have a completely loose chassis. I personally prefer to torque the chassis before installing items like the exhaust so that everything is free to float when the bike is placed under its own weight and finds its happy place before torquing.
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the motor mounts , install swingarm , exhaust ect ...., and then torque everything down after everything is in place? Just trying to understand here.

Pit Row

See All »
BobPA
Profile picture for user BobPA
Posts
8028
Joined
10/31/2013
Location
PA US
BobPA 2/24/2017 8:17am
2/24/2017 8:17am
brocsdad wrote:
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim...
Shimming inside the collar is a great idea but you mentioned only shimming the brake side? I'm a little confused because you would need to shim the left side to take out the play.
mx216 wrote:
If you shim the left side you will offset the sprockets. By taking up the extra space on the right hand side of the bike you...
If you shim the left side you will offset the sprockets. By taking up the extra space on the right hand side of the bike you do not mess with sprocket alignment. This is why when doing this you should have a completely loose chassis. I personally prefer to torque the chassis before installing items like the exhaust so that everything is free to float when the bike is placed under its own weight and finds its happy place before torquing.
jeffro503 wrote:
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the...
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the motor mounts , install swingarm , exhaust ect ...., and then torque everything down after everything is in place? Just trying to understand here.
Other way around. Torque the chassis and engine first. I always toque my linkage and swingarm while someone is holding the bike upright...do not know if it does anything, just heard of big name guys doing it.
mx216
Profile picture for user mx216
Posts
729
Joined
3/21/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
mx216 2/24/2017 8:30am
2/24/2017 8:30am
jeffro503 wrote:
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the...
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the motor mounts , install swingarm , exhaust ect ...., and then torque everything down after everything is in place? Just trying to understand here.
Yeah Jeffro! Some exhausts have enough "play"
that they aren't to big of a deal. Anytime the swingarm comes off of a bike I will loosen all of the the other major chassis points for sure, engine mounts, head stays and linkage and re-torque them. If something such as the exhaust will not let motor wiggle in the chassis then I would remove or loosen it. Doing it this way allows everything to settle out and it doesn't put any binds on anything when the bike is placed under its own weight(always torque the main chassis with the bike sitting under its own weight). On the KTM I torque engine, then swing arm and linkage followed by the head stays. In other news next week I'll have the garage shop done. You'll have to come check it out. Doing the cabinets this weekend! Yay! Bout ready to get to doing some work
jeffro503
Profile picture for user jeffro503
Posts
27442
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
jeffro503 2/24/2017 8:54am
2/24/2017 8:54am
jeffro503 wrote:
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the...
Joel....quick question : So on something like removing the swing arm , maybe a full exhaust replacement , it's a good idea to loosen all the motor mounts , install swingarm , exhaust ect ...., and then torque everything down after everything is in place? Just trying to understand here.
mx216 wrote:
Yeah Jeffro! Some exhausts have enough "play" that they aren't to big of a deal. Anytime the swingarm comes off of a bike I will loosen...
Yeah Jeffro! Some exhausts have enough "play"
that they aren't to big of a deal. Anytime the swingarm comes off of a bike I will loosen all of the the other major chassis points for sure, engine mounts, head stays and linkage and re-torque them. If something such as the exhaust will not let motor wiggle in the chassis then I would remove or loosen it. Doing it this way allows everything to settle out and it doesn't put any binds on anything when the bike is placed under its own weight(always torque the main chassis with the bike sitting under its own weight). On the KTM I torque engine, then swing arm and linkage followed by the head stays. In other news next week I'll have the garage shop done. You'll have to come check it out. Doing the cabinets this weekend! Yay! Bout ready to get to doing some work
Man , after all these years of being in the sport , I never really thought about doing it that way , but it seems totally logical. Send me a PM or something Joel , I'd like to come check your shop out one of these days. I think you have my # , but can't remember if I gave that to you or not. Hope you're good man , and for sure we'll be chewing up some of the same dirt this spring / summer. If it ever warms the hell up around here! So over this crap weather!

Post a reply to: Shimming the KTM Swingarm