Self Insured Prices - No More Motocross Tracks!!..

Moto_Geek
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1823
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Location
Golden, CO US
Fantasy
1666th
10/20/2017 9:40am
wardy wrote:
talk to this guy. https://www.ridersurance.com/ then buy temp insurance 11 months at a time. save money think outside the box. hope it works, our family of...
talk to this guy.
https://www.ridersurance.com/

then buy temp insurance 11 months at a time. save money think outside the box.

hope it works, our family of 4 which 3 race was going north of 2500.00 a month two years ago...................screw it, we are self employed and will have to pay a "penalty" for not getting the approved stuff.

couldn't afford it, barely was making it at 1700 a month.

so.

outside the box. there is insurance out there and Brandon is the guy that is one of us that will find it for you.

ps. my kid broke his femur 2 months ago, coverage we have is united health one/golden rule and it's worked well.
Thanks for the information, I will check it out..
motogrady
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3931
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Location
WV US
10/20/2017 9:43am
motogrady wrote:
I think a lot of that feeling is leftover from the decades recently past, when it really was free market. Like a lot of stuff, back...

I think a lot of that feeling is leftover from the decades recently past, when it really was free market.
Like a lot of stuff, back then we were cutting edge, we were leaders in product, services, almost everything.

Another thing.
Deregulate, or increase the speed and ease to become a doctor. Or lab tech. Or nurse.

What is it, who actually decides how a doctor becomes a doctor?
The American Medical Association?
Let other groups form, The National Medical Association, The Medial Assoiation of the USA.

Why is it that one association has a lock, on what amounts to all of our health and well being?

The medical field, anything but free market when you look at it.
early wrote:
Interested to hear your thoughts on refusal of coverage standards prior to the ACA?

I can see why the insurance companies need to price for it.
They have to consider it, if they want to stay in business.

That's why they need to be booted out.
Someone has to pay for that.
As it is, a select group of people are targeted to take on that high risk, almost certain expense.
Why a select group?

Interested to hear your thoughts on who should pay for these kind of items?

And who should be considered eligible?
early
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Location
University Heights, OH US
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2231st
10/20/2017 9:51am
motogrady wrote:
I can see why the insurance companies need to price for it. They have to consider it, if they want to stay in business. That's why...

I can see why the insurance companies need to price for it.
They have to consider it, if they want to stay in business.

That's why they need to be booted out.
Someone has to pay for that.
As it is, a select group of people are targeted to take on that high risk, almost certain expense.
Why a select group?

Interested to hear your thoughts on who should pay for these kind of items?

And who should be considered eligible?
My opinion is there really is no good answer. Its the spot where if you believe a person should be able to get some kind of care regardless of their health or financial situation then free market principles run into a road block. The system was not right before the ACA and its not right now either. I do believe that there should be some sort of safety net to keep a citizen a productive member of society to a logical end.
motogrady
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WV US
10/20/2017 9:56am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2017 9:56am
Are you serious? Almost every study in the world lists the US healthcare near the bottom of first world countries. In my daughters acceptance reception into...
Are you serious? Almost every study in the world lists the US healthcare near the bottom of first world countries. In my daughters acceptance reception into med school, the dean of medicine was ranting about how poor the healthcare was in the United States and how far we were behind most countries.
motogrady wrote:
I think a lot of that feeling is leftover from the decades recently past, when it really was free market. Like a lot of stuff, back...

I think a lot of that feeling is leftover from the decades recently past, when it really was free market.
Like a lot of stuff, back then we were cutting edge, we were leaders in product, services, almost everything.

Another thing.
Deregulate, or increase the speed and ease to become a doctor. Or lab tech. Or nurse.

What is it, who actually decides how a doctor becomes a doctor?
The American Medical Association?
Let other groups form, The National Medical Association, The Medial Assoiation of the USA.

Why is it that one association has a lock, on what amounts to all of our health and well being?

The medical field, anything but free market when you look at it.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Whoa, so you're advocating for "medical diploma mills" and eliminating high standards of education for doctors? Really? On a side note, we just had a fairly...
Whoa, so you're advocating for "medical diploma mills" and eliminating high standards of education for doctors? Really?

On a side note, we just had a fairly major medical expense in my family. Aortic valve replacement (open heart) for my wife. Considering the amount of time that she spent in ICU, the total bill wasn't as much as I thought it was going to be. The grand total was just about $180K, but we'd already met her deductible and maximum out of pocket ($500/$2000), so we only owed for a couple small, uncovered items and my meals from the hospital cafeteria. Just a little over $100. Her insurance is awesome, employer pays her entire premium and she pays just about $300 a month to cover our kids also.
Hey, it's great you or your wife's employer has something going where they can offer those terms.
More power to them.

And no, I'm not advocating lowering standards.
And I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.
What I'd like to see is a relief from the stranglehold one organization has on the profession.
More doctors, the price they charge should go down.

And furthermore, nobody says you have to deal with a doctor not accredited with the AMA.
All you would need do is look on the wall at his diplomas.
You don't like them, you don't feel they're qualified, don't use him.
Just don't tell me who I have to deal with, or if I can can go overseas if I can't afford Dr. John Smith from Harvard Medical School If I so wish.

What happens when I get a life threatening condition, and my insurance company doesn't cover it?

Do I just die because my company doesn't have it going on like you?

The Shop

akillerwombat
Posts
2006
Joined
10/16/2013
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
10/20/2017 9:58am
Rooster wrote:
Jeebuz I hate watching you guys debate health care. You've got the most expensive and ineffective system in the world and every time you get bent...
Jeebuz I hate watching you guys debate health care.

You've got the most expensive and ineffective system in the world and every time you get bent over by your insurance companies you turn and blame sick and injured people for being sick and injured.

I hope one day you guys get it figured out and stop getting screwed. You really deserve better than you have.
A'men.

Healthcare companies and insurers have done an amazing job convincing us that when it comes to health care it is every man for themselves and it's royally fucking us.
motogrady
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3931
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Location
WV US
10/20/2017 10:03am
motogrady wrote:
I can see why the insurance companies need to price for it. They have to consider it, if they want to stay in business. That's why...

I can see why the insurance companies need to price for it.
They have to consider it, if they want to stay in business.

That's why they need to be booted out.
Someone has to pay for that.
As it is, a select group of people are targeted to take on that high risk, almost certain expense.
Why a select group?

Interested to hear your thoughts on who should pay for these kind of items?

And who should be considered eligible?
early wrote:
My opinion is there really is no good answer. Its the spot where if you believe a person should be able to get some kind of...
My opinion is there really is no good answer. Its the spot where if you believe a person should be able to get some kind of care regardless of their health or financial situation then free market principles run into a road block. The system was not right before the ACA and its not right now either. I do believe that there should be some sort of safety net to keep a citizen a productive member of society to a logical end.

That's where Government should come in.
That's where all of us, we, as one great big tribe, do the best to take care of all.
Would it be as good as a few, select individuals get, heck no.

But there should be something.
And St. Jude's Hospital can only ask for so many donations.

That's why, imo, it's something, something vital, that's needed by all, both well and not so well off.

And you ain't gonna get that out of a businessman hired by a company to maximize profits.
FreshTopEnd
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Sacramento, CA US
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4254th
10/20/2017 10:10am
You guys are getting well and truly fucked up the ass, no lube. Who's to blame? Well who's getting paid a fortune? Doctors, medical associations and...
You guys are getting well and truly fucked up the ass, no lube. Who's to blame? Well who's getting paid a fortune? Doctors, medical associations and insurance companies. And politicians
Docs not in poodle practices (noninsurance dependent like cosmetic plastic surgery, etc.) are making less than in the past for the most part.

IMO its the administrative bureaucratic payment system friction, with a ton of personnel involved, that is driving up costs, not "free care" people. My premiums went up every year since I started working in 89, and I paid full freight for my family since 97 and was not sheltered by employee subsidies.
10/20/2017 10:16am
The prices you guys talk about for insurance I really don't know how anyone can afford/risk riding.
Alex.434
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441
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Location
Warner Springs, CA US
10/20/2017 10:18am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2017 10:23am
sgrimmxdad wrote:
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives...
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives competition and keeps quality up. Most places with "governmental" ran healthcare is mediocre at best...

The left F'd up the healthcare system in this country by offering freebies to the less fortunate. As long as they are offering something "FREE" to someone they get that vote....

Meanwhile I am over here paying 2k a month for a family of 4, higher deductible and less coverage than before... Great job Obamacare.....
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US citizens going outside the USA) for healthcare items. Look up Medical Tourism.

One anecdotal example I have is my buddy living in Orange County California, who makes Good Money and is surrounded by Top Medical Facilities, who goes to MEXICO for his dental work. Right over the border in Mexico is state-of-the-art facilities, USA trained staff, and fraction of the costs. It's cheaper to pay out of pocket than it is to pay via his Good Dental Insurance.

That's one example. Look up costs of giving birth in the USA vs other 1st World Countries. Or the cost of a ACL. Or anything else. It's cheaper to fly out of country, get the work done, and fly home EVEN IF YOU HAVE GOOD HEALTHCARE PROGRAM in the USA.

The talking point that non-USA medical facilities are mud huts with dirty scalpels is pretty bs. Any industrialized country has quality facilities.

------------

A report of McKinsey and Co. from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[69] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

In First World countries such as the United States, medical tourism has large growth prospects and potentially destabilizing implications. A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that 1.5 million would seek health care outside the US in 2008.
jtiger12
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Location
Forest H Ill, MD US
10/20/2017 10:37am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2017 10:41am
I seriously don't know how you guys are affording the insurance plans that you have. Are you making $200,000+ a year? My wife and I do okay and we have no kids. I can't imagine paying $1,700 a month for health insurance, I'd have to fake my own death and leave her with the insurance payout
IWreckALot
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Location
Fort Worth, TX US
10/20/2017 11:07am
jtiger12 wrote:
I seriously don't know how you guys are affording the insurance plans that you have. Are you making $200,000+ a year? My wife and I do...
I seriously don't know how you guys are affording the insurance plans that you have. Are you making $200,000+ a year? My wife and I do okay and we have no kids. I can't imagine paying $1,700 a month for health insurance, I'd have to fake my own death and leave her with the insurance payout
Same boat here. Wife and I do pretty well, but no kids. She's a nurse working for a huge hospital and has pretty good and affordable insurance. I am insured through work but this year I switched to a Health Savings Account. Basically I pay $14 a pay period (every two weeks), then I put $84 per pay period in my HSA. If I have to go to the doctor, I have to pay the full insurance negotiated rate for the visit and for the prescription. I still have my max out of pocket so if I hit $5,000 in medical, insurance still kicks in and pays the rest. I never get sick. The HSA fund just continues to grow. Once it hits a certain dollar amount, you can invest the funds in an IRA account and have it as a second retirement fund.

We also have a teledoc line that we can call. Most of the little crap I get like sinus infections, are diagnosed over the phone for free, and the script is called in and I just pay for the prescription. This is the best option available to me. But if you need a routine prescription, or anything that costs monthly, it's not beneficial. In other words, I'm just fortunate I'm healthy and can benefit from this HSA.
8tensolutions
Posts
2418
Joined
11/15/2009
Location
Salt Lake City, UT US
10/20/2017 12:03pm
MPJC wrote:
To a Canadian like myself, this seems like a bizarre conversation. With our single payer system, you'd think that our taxes would be absurd, but I...
To a Canadian like myself, this seems like a bizarre conversation. With our single payer system, you'd think that our taxes would be absurd, but I don't think they're much worse than yours (it's hard to generalize as taxes vary widely depending on jurisdiction) - and our tax returns are much simpler, as there's just one tax return that covers both federal and provincial (I've seen some huge multi-jusrisdictional U.S. returns - I work for a big 4 accounting firm so we do U.S. tax but just stick to Canadian). If you have an incorporated business, our corporate tax rates are actually lower. On the other hand, waiting times can be a bitch here. I did a tax return for a client who didn't want to wait for shoulder surgery (it would have cost him nothing if he did wait - over a year) so he went to a private clinic and paid over $10,000 to get it done immediately. So our system isn't perfect either. But it's not nearly as bad as some of your politicians would have you believe (Pence's claims about our system's outcomes are demonstrably false). And imagine what would happen to wait times in the U.S.A. if all of the uninsured were added to the queues!
r.sal923 wrote:
From a mother Canadian. I work for government and have very good health plan. Go to the doctor 7 months ago for routine check up. She...
From a mother Canadian. I work for government and have very good health plan. Go to the doctor 7 months ago for routine check up. She listens to my heart and it takes her quite a wile and She says that she hears something in there that is not normal. Sends me off for a ultrasound (3 months lAtter). I go back to see her 2 days after that. Guess what I have a leaking valve, she thinks. She Makes a refural to go see specialist . That was sept 10th ish. Am I going to get to see anyone about this? If I pay 5k I would be in next day, I am lucky if I get to see someone in the next year. Hope I don't die
Yes, this is the problem with government mandated systems. The doctors have no incentive to perform and people are lined up because it's "free". It's very much like if McDonalds became free tomorrow, but your taxes actually paid for it. The lines would be a mile long for each location, but the citizens would actually being paying double what they do today. Today they have a choice though.
Dtat720
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1588
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Location
Flowood, MS US
10/20/2017 12:21pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives...
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives competition and keeps quality up. Most places with "governmental" ran healthcare is mediocre at best...

The left F'd up the healthcare system in this country by offering freebies to the less fortunate. As long as they are offering something "FREE" to someone they get that vote....

Meanwhile I am over here paying 2k a month for a family of 4, higher deductible and less coverage than before... Great job Obamacare.....
Alex.434 wrote:
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US...
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US citizens going outside the USA) for healthcare items. Look up Medical Tourism.

One anecdotal example I have is my buddy living in Orange County California, who makes Good Money and is surrounded by Top Medical Facilities, who goes to MEXICO for his dental work. Right over the border in Mexico is state-of-the-art facilities, USA trained staff, and fraction of the costs. It's cheaper to pay out of pocket than it is to pay via his Good Dental Insurance.

That's one example. Look up costs of giving birth in the USA vs other 1st World Countries. Or the cost of a ACL. Or anything else. It's cheaper to fly out of country, get the work done, and fly home EVEN IF YOU HAVE GOOD HEALTHCARE PROGRAM in the USA.

The talking point that non-USA medical facilities are mud huts with dirty scalpels is pretty bs. Any industrialized country has quality facilities.

------------

A report of McKinsey and Co. from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[69] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

In First World countries such as the United States, medical tourism has large growth prospects and potentially destabilizing implications. A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that 1.5 million would seek health care outside the US in 2008.
They arent going to the UK or Canada for treatment though. They are going to India, UAE, places like that. Even Canadians and Brits are going to India and other places for surgeries. India is the biggest recipient last i saw. Come the to states, get the best education in the world then go home and provide the best services in the world for a fraction of the cost
sgrimmxdad
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Location
Farmville, NC US
Fantasy
1957th
10/20/2017 12:31pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives...
Why do people from all over the world come to the US for health care? It is because we have a free market system which drives competition and keeps quality up. Most places with "governmental" ran healthcare is mediocre at best...

The left F'd up the healthcare system in this country by offering freebies to the less fortunate. As long as they are offering something "FREE" to someone they get that vote....

Meanwhile I am over here paying 2k a month for a family of 4, higher deductible and less coverage than before... Great job Obamacare.....
Alex.434 wrote:
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US...
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US citizens going outside the USA) for healthcare items. Look up Medical Tourism.

One anecdotal example I have is my buddy living in Orange County California, who makes Good Money and is surrounded by Top Medical Facilities, who goes to MEXICO for his dental work. Right over the border in Mexico is state-of-the-art facilities, USA trained staff, and fraction of the costs. It's cheaper to pay out of pocket than it is to pay via his Good Dental Insurance.

That's one example. Look up costs of giving birth in the USA vs other 1st World Countries. Or the cost of a ACL. Or anything else. It's cheaper to fly out of country, get the work done, and fly home EVEN IF YOU HAVE GOOD HEALTHCARE PROGRAM in the USA.

The talking point that non-USA medical facilities are mud huts with dirty scalpels is pretty bs. Any industrialized country has quality facilities.

------------

A report of McKinsey and Co. from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[69] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

In First World countries such as the United States, medical tourism has large growth prospects and potentially destabilizing implications. A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that 1.5 million would seek health care outside the US in 2008.
Dtat720 wrote:
They arent going to the UK or Canada for treatment though. They are going to India, UAE, places like that. Even Canadians and Brits are going...
They arent going to the UK or Canada for treatment though. They are going to India, UAE, places like that. Even Canadians and Brits are going to India and other places for surgeries. India is the biggest recipient last i saw. Come the to states, get the best education in the world then go home and provide the best services in the world for a fraction of the cost
They are going to free market countries, that was my point. Do you have Americans crossing the border to Canada for treatment or vise versa?
Dtat720
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Location
Flowood, MS US
10/20/2017 1:00pm
Alex.434 wrote:
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US...
You should do a bit more research on the topic my man. Ironically we are seeing more and more people go OUTSIDE the USA (like US citizens going outside the USA) for healthcare items. Look up Medical Tourism.

One anecdotal example I have is my buddy living in Orange County California, who makes Good Money and is surrounded by Top Medical Facilities, who goes to MEXICO for his dental work. Right over the border in Mexico is state-of-the-art facilities, USA trained staff, and fraction of the costs. It's cheaper to pay out of pocket than it is to pay via his Good Dental Insurance.

That's one example. Look up costs of giving birth in the USA vs other 1st World Countries. Or the cost of a ACL. Or anything else. It's cheaper to fly out of country, get the work done, and fly home EVEN IF YOU HAVE GOOD HEALTHCARE PROGRAM in the USA.

The talking point that non-USA medical facilities are mud huts with dirty scalpels is pretty bs. Any industrialized country has quality facilities.

------------

A report of McKinsey and Co. from 2008 found that between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[69] The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

In First World countries such as the United States, medical tourism has large growth prospects and potentially destabilizing implications. A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that 1.5 million would seek health care outside the US in 2008.
Dtat720 wrote:
They arent going to the UK or Canada for treatment though. They are going to India, UAE, places like that. Even Canadians and Brits are going...
They arent going to the UK or Canada for treatment though. They are going to India, UAE, places like that. Even Canadians and Brits are going to India and other places for surgeries. India is the biggest recipient last i saw. Come the to states, get the best education in the world then go home and provide the best services in the world for a fraction of the cost
sgrimmxdad wrote:
They are going to free market countries, that was my point. Do you have Americans crossing the border to Canada for treatment or vise versa?
I was agreeing with you but also pointing out for the guys clamoring on about how great Canada and UK systems are. Their people flee the country for procedures as much as americans
Rooster
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4430
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Location
Edmonton CA
10/20/2017 1:00pm
sgrimmxdad wrote:
They are going to free market countries, that was my point. Do you have Americans crossing the border to Canada for treatment or vise versa?
I referred a young man who had a similar injury to myself years ago to the surgeon who fixed me up in Vancouver. His doctors and insurance company said there was nothing more they could do for him and I knew there was. The Canadian doctor got him a referral to the mayo clinic. Don't know if he ever got the help he needed, since it was outside his coverage and they weren't made of money.

Seems odd that somebody has to travel from WA to MN to get the surgery they need if your system is so great. I didn't even have to leave my city and a three month stay in hospital with a 13+ hour surgery didn't cost us a dime out of pocket. Never mind all the endoscopes and other preliminary tests (CT scans, etc).
10/20/2017 1:02pm
Another issue I see in the US is people think they "deserve" healthcare. They eat like crap, don't work out, smoke, drink, etc. and when they get lung cancer, diabetes, or any other preventable ailment they expect insurance to cover all the costs. I know sometimes you get those things without the bad habits but I'm talking about in general.

Someone mentioned a single payer and then supplemental insurance. That makes the most sense to me, just like car insurance. You get covered for the routine items like check-ups and preventative care while it will also cover accidents and emergencies. Then you need to get supplemental insurance to cover cancer and other disease treatments. Those are the items that get expensive. That is a little cold hearted but something has to give somewhere. And I am not wealthy by any means so I would probably be the one dying because I couldn't afford the coverage for some weird disease...

Just because we can do something doesn't mean it always makes sense. If you can't afford a $500,000 house the government won't subsidize it. Some of the treatments we have now that are super expensive should be looked at the same way. Then maybe the medical industry will correct their pricing to sell more at a cheaper price instead of selling more at a government subsidized price.
10/20/2017 1:06pm
Not being able to afford health insurance is one of the reasons I pretty much stopped riding. I injured my shoulder once and luckily it was not bad enough to require surgery, but it was a wake up call for me.
10/20/2017 2:21pm
Glad my company self insures our policies. no increases for the last 2 years EPO converage to any dr or specialist 100/ month $20 copay. I left being self employed just due to the insurance.
shiftmx_22
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672
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CA
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10/20/2017 2:45pm Edited Date/Time 10/20/2017 2:48pm
Alright, I'll share my first hand experience with the American hospital system as a Canadian. Before I get started, I want to say that some of you might get angry or offended, but just remember that this is only the opinion of some random dude on the internet.

7 months ago myself, my wife and two kids (year and a half old girl, four year old boy) were traveling through Montana to an indoor race. We were hit head on by a drunk driver. We were in an SUV (my dad had already taken bikes down), and it completely crunched it. kids were rushed around and flown to a couple different hospitals, but within 8 hours we all ended up at the same facility on separate floors.

I don't remember much until I was laying in the ER at the last hospital and I made it clear to all the hospital staff that I have good travel insurance through my work, and my dad was able to get a hold of a co-worker and get all of the information.

I had completely shattered my left knee-cap, and broke my wrist. My wife broke several bones in her face, her thumb and her ankle. My little girl broke both her femurs. My boy broke his tib/fib and we would later find out that he had a bleed on the back of his brain that was causing problems.

At first the hospital staff were great. They treated us very well. A doctor asked if I wanted to go straight in for surgery to repair my kneecap. I told him I wasn't sure and asked what his opinion was (in Canada, the doctors typically tell US what is going on, not the opposite). He said it didn't matter, they could do it there, or it could wait until we get back to Canada. In my delirious state I told him I'd just wait until I got back to Canada.

Fast forward ~48 hours - in the meantime I had been in direct contact with my travel insurance, they were taking care of everything and just trying to get an ambulance lined up to get us back to Canada. The pediatrics staff came in and asked what we would like them to do with our two kids. I had no idea what they were talking about, but they said the kids were fixed up and ready to go! I still couldn't stand or sit up, or do anything for myself let alone my kids. My wife was in the same condition. My little girl was in a full body cast for her femurs. I thought there was no way our kids were all better and ready to leave the hospital, but they insisted they were and needed the bed space. My travel insurance and an admin at the hospital assured us that the kids wouldn't be going anywhere until rides were arranged to get us all comfortably back to Canada. Sure enough, the next day after the admin had left on holidays the pediatrics staff discharged our two kids to my wife's parents who fortunately were able to get there to take the kids to a nearby hotel. We finally ended up getting an ambulance arranged for the next day, but the hospital couldn't keep me or my wife for another day so they called the hotel shuttle to come pick us up and we spent a night in the hotel.

We finally made it back to Canada and were all four admitted back into the hospital. I was in for another week or so having surgery on my knee, my wife was in for another couple of days, and my four year old who was deemed "perfectly fine" had to be rushed to the children's hospital in Calgary because the hemorrhage on the back of his brain was pushing on his optical nerve and paralyzing his left eye, and he was kept there for about another week.

The whole experience in the US hospital was a joke. After the first 24 hours they treated us completely different. In their eyes we were "fixed" and they were ready for new clients. Maybe it was a bad hospital, who knows. But I have never been so happy to get back in to a Canadian hospital in my life.

Oh, and if anyone is curious how much I have paid so far in medical expenses or co-pays, the sum total comes out to roughly $0. My travel insurance is already into the hundreds of thousands that they have paid on my behalf.
Dtat720
Posts
1588
Joined
2/20/2015
Location
Flowood, MS US
10/20/2017 3:19pm
shiftmx_22 wrote:
Alright, I'll share my first hand experience with the American hospital system as a Canadian. Before I get started, I want to say that some of...
Alright, I'll share my first hand experience with the American hospital system as a Canadian. Before I get started, I want to say that some of you might get angry or offended, but just remember that this is only the opinion of some random dude on the internet.

7 months ago myself, my wife and two kids (year and a half old girl, four year old boy) were traveling through Montana to an indoor race. We were hit head on by a drunk driver. We were in an SUV (my dad had already taken bikes down), and it completely crunched it. kids were rushed around and flown to a couple different hospitals, but within 8 hours we all ended up at the same facility on separate floors.

I don't remember much until I was laying in the ER at the last hospital and I made it clear to all the hospital staff that I have good travel insurance through my work, and my dad was able to get a hold of a co-worker and get all of the information.

I had completely shattered my left knee-cap, and broke my wrist. My wife broke several bones in her face, her thumb and her ankle. My little girl broke both her femurs. My boy broke his tib/fib and we would later find out that he had a bleed on the back of his brain that was causing problems.

At first the hospital staff were great. They treated us very well. A doctor asked if I wanted to go straight in for surgery to repair my kneecap. I told him I wasn't sure and asked what his opinion was (in Canada, the doctors typically tell US what is going on, not the opposite). He said it didn't matter, they could do it there, or it could wait until we get back to Canada. In my delirious state I told him I'd just wait until I got back to Canada.

Fast forward ~48 hours - in the meantime I had been in direct contact with my travel insurance, they were taking care of everything and just trying to get an ambulance lined up to get us back to Canada. The pediatrics staff came in and asked what we would like them to do with our two kids. I had no idea what they were talking about, but they said the kids were fixed up and ready to go! I still couldn't stand or sit up, or do anything for myself let alone my kids. My wife was in the same condition. My little girl was in a full body cast for her femurs. I thought there was no way our kids were all better and ready to leave the hospital, but they insisted they were and needed the bed space. My travel insurance and an admin at the hospital assured us that the kids wouldn't be going anywhere until rides were arranged to get us all comfortably back to Canada. Sure enough, the next day after the admin had left on holidays the pediatrics staff discharged our two kids to my wife's parents who fortunately were able to get there to take the kids to a nearby hotel. We finally ended up getting an ambulance arranged for the next day, but the hospital couldn't keep me or my wife for another day so they called the hotel shuttle to come pick us up and we spent a night in the hotel.

We finally made it back to Canada and were all four admitted back into the hospital. I was in for another week or so having surgery on my knee, my wife was in for another couple of days, and my four year old who was deemed "perfectly fine" had to be rushed to the children's hospital in Calgary because the hemorrhage on the back of his brain was pushing on his optical nerve and paralyzing his left eye, and he was kept there for about another week.

The whole experience in the US hospital was a joke. After the first 24 hours they treated us completely different. In their eyes we were "fixed" and they were ready for new clients. Maybe it was a bad hospital, who knows. But I have never been so happy to get back in to a Canadian hospital in my life.

Oh, and if anyone is curious how much I have paid so far in medical expenses or co-pays, the sum total comes out to roughly $0. My travel insurance is already into the hundreds of thousands that they have paid on my behalf.
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on the billing staff not being adequately trained on travel insurance and fearing non compliance on paying. Absolutely unfortunate your family had to experience that, it isnt right or justified. Its flat out wrong.

Another misunderstanding is, insurance isnt healthcare. Insurance wasnt even a thing for average people until Reagan came in office and congress got together with insurance companies and doctors and figured out a way for everyone involved to make millions. Then the lawyers got wind.... doctors sold their souls for the money in the 80's and society is paying for it now. Nobody went bankrupt over medical bills until insurance was pushed to everyone and was offered on a regular basis to every worker. Insurance used to be a perk to hire the best of the best.

Now, with ACA, try asking a doctor what the cash price is for a procedure. They will either one, be crooked and give you a price, or 2, follow the rules and say they cannot accept cash, doing so will nullify contracts with insurance companies.

The biggest reason for rising costs at hospitals is payroll. Hiring administration personel to manage the paperwork and compliance officers to try and avoid a missed comma on a piece of paper that can result in a multi million dollar settlement. It isnt the procedures, its the overhead to prevent a lawsuit from the procedure.
shiftmx_22
Posts
672
Joined
4/14/2008
Location
CA
Fantasy
629th
10/20/2017 3:28pm
Dtat720 wrote:
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on...
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on the billing staff not being adequately trained on travel insurance and fearing non compliance on paying. Absolutely unfortunate your family had to experience that, it isnt right or justified. Its flat out wrong.

Another misunderstanding is, insurance isnt healthcare. Insurance wasnt even a thing for average people until Reagan came in office and congress got together with insurance companies and doctors and figured out a way for everyone involved to make millions. Then the lawyers got wind.... doctors sold their souls for the money in the 80's and society is paying for it now. Nobody went bankrupt over medical bills until insurance was pushed to everyone and was offered on a regular basis to every worker. Insurance used to be a perk to hire the best of the best.

Now, with ACA, try asking a doctor what the cash price is for a procedure. They will either one, be crooked and give you a price, or 2, follow the rules and say they cannot accept cash, doing so will nullify contracts with insurance companies.

The biggest reason for rising costs at hospitals is payroll. Hiring administration personel to manage the paperwork and compliance officers to try and avoid a missed comma on a piece of paper that can result in a multi million dollar settlement. It isnt the procedures, its the overhead to prevent a lawsuit from the procedure.
Could you please expound on your first paragraph? It troubles me a little bit that we would be treated the way we were over the financial side of things. This is probably a whole other debate, but I think that we should have been properly cared for even if we had no insurance. When me and my wife were discharged we were not able to get out of a bed unassisted, and unable to take any more than 3 steps without someone helping us along.

I appreciate your insight as this has been my first and only experience with a non-Canadian medical system.
Dtat720
Posts
1588
Joined
2/20/2015
Location
Flowood, MS US
10/20/2017 3:43pm
Dtat720 wrote:
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on...
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on the billing staff not being adequately trained on travel insurance and fearing non compliance on paying. Absolutely unfortunate your family had to experience that, it isnt right or justified. Its flat out wrong.

Another misunderstanding is, insurance isnt healthcare. Insurance wasnt even a thing for average people until Reagan came in office and congress got together with insurance companies and doctors and figured out a way for everyone involved to make millions. Then the lawyers got wind.... doctors sold their souls for the money in the 80's and society is paying for it now. Nobody went bankrupt over medical bills until insurance was pushed to everyone and was offered on a regular basis to every worker. Insurance used to be a perk to hire the best of the best.

Now, with ACA, try asking a doctor what the cash price is for a procedure. They will either one, be crooked and give you a price, or 2, follow the rules and say they cannot accept cash, doing so will nullify contracts with insurance companies.

The biggest reason for rising costs at hospitals is payroll. Hiring administration personel to manage the paperwork and compliance officers to try and avoid a missed comma on a piece of paper that can result in a multi million dollar settlement. It isnt the procedures, its the overhead to prevent a lawsuit from the procedure.
shiftmx_22 wrote:
Could you please expound on your first paragraph? It troubles me a little bit that we would be treated the way we were over the financial...
Could you please expound on your first paragraph? It troubles me a little bit that we would be treated the way we were over the financial side of things. This is probably a whole other debate, but I think that we should have been properly cared for even if we had no insurance. When me and my wife were discharged we were not able to get out of a bed unassisted, and unable to take any more than 3 steps without someone helping us along.

I appreciate your insight as this has been my first and only experience with a non-Canadian medical system.
Thats one of the main issues people have with hospitals in the present time. All a hospital is obligated to provide is immediate care to stabilize a patient. Especially when funding for care is in question and unfortunately, your family being international, its questionable as your travel insurance isnt contracted with the hospital. So, stabilize and dont let the door hit ya on the way out. But trust me, the actual care providers, doctors, nurses, etc. they dont have that mentallity, its the bean counters.
reded
Posts
3685
Joined
3/26/2011
Location
KS US
10/20/2017 3:47pm
Dtat720 wrote:
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on...
I have several family members who have been hospital admin for decades and others who are surgeons and doctors. Your experience, I would put more on the billing staff not being adequately trained on travel insurance and fearing non compliance on paying. Absolutely unfortunate your family had to experience that, it isnt right or justified. Its flat out wrong.

Another misunderstanding is, insurance isnt healthcare. Insurance wasnt even a thing for average people until Reagan came in office and congress got together with insurance companies and doctors and figured out a way for everyone involved to make millions. Then the lawyers got wind.... doctors sold their souls for the money in the 80's and society is paying for it now. Nobody went bankrupt over medical bills until insurance was pushed to everyone and was offered on a regular basis to every worker. Insurance used to be a perk to hire the best of the best.

Now, with ACA, try asking a doctor what the cash price is for a procedure. They will either one, be crooked and give you a price, or 2, follow the rules and say they cannot accept cash, doing so will nullify contracts with insurance companies.

The biggest reason for rising costs at hospitals is payroll. Hiring administration personel to manage the paperwork and compliance officers to try and avoid a missed comma on a piece of paper that can result in a multi million dollar settlement. It isnt the procedures, its the overhead to prevent a lawsuit from the procedure.
shiftmx_22 wrote:
Could you please expound on your first paragraph? It troubles me a little bit that we would be treated the way we were over the financial...
Could you please expound on your first paragraph? It troubles me a little bit that we would be treated the way we were over the financial side of things. This is probably a whole other debate, but I think that we should have been properly cared for even if we had no insurance. When me and my wife were discharged we were not able to get out of a bed unassisted, and unable to take any more than 3 steps without someone helping us along.

I appreciate your insight as this has been my first and only experience with a non-Canadian medical system.
They were afraid that your insurance wouldn't pay and you couldn't afford anymore care than what they provided.
They patched you up and got you the fuck out of there in the cheapest manner that they could without you suspecting it.

Welcome to America.
mxdude105
Posts
628
Joined
12/5/2011
Location
MD US
10/20/2017 5:51pm
Rdubs19 wrote:
No surprise at all. The US government is a vending machine that you insert money into in the form of campaign donations, select the law you...
No surprise at all. The US government is a vending machine that you insert money into in the form of campaign donations, select the law you want, and sure enough you get it. Insurance companies put a whole lot of money into that machine. People like us do not. So bend over and take it. Oh but uh, be sure to vote, it's super important and really makes a difference :-/
This sums up the problem very accurately and concisely. Insurance companies, the American Medical Assoc., large hospital systems...they exert tremendous political influence to ensure that the current mess perpetuates. Why? Because their profits are off the chart. I work for a large regional health care system. Our execs and VP's are all in the seven figure salary range at what's supposed to be a "not for profit" organization.

In order for healthcare in this country to be fixed, the money and political bullshit have got to be somehow kept out of it.

swtwtwtw
Posts
1287
Joined
4/16/2008
Location
Apple Valley, CA US
10/20/2017 5:58pm
hahahaha, only in 'merica.... one gives an affordable, legal alternative to giving money to insurance companies for healthcare and the citizens ignore it and go on paying too much for too little... for the best medicine in the world.
badger62
Posts
12
Joined
2/18/2016
Location
Lincolnton, NC US
10/20/2017 9:14pm
As a fellow Marine I have to say, No mike it ain't free. Free to you of course but not for the We the People. I did my time in Hell just as you did. ( Beirut, grenada, Somalia and many other places) the problem is that working people pay for the lazy, worthless ones. Don't misunderstand I'm not talking about you, I am talking about the ones that have never done anything for anybody, much less done anything for themselves. They have a sense of entitlement and they deserve nothing. Health care is not a Right,it is a earned privilege, you get what you work for.
Ok, I've said more than I wanted too....

Carry on Vitards....

Mike, if you want to discuss further shoot me a PM, we actually know each other and I would like to catch up if you have the time.
badger62
Posts
12
Joined
2/18/2016
Location
Lincolnton, NC US
10/20/2017 9:19pm
Forty wrote:
It’s not about health care.
You get it.......its all about CONTROL.
Bineano
Posts
397
Joined
10/2/2012
Location
Whitecourt CA
10/20/2017 10:08pm
MPJC wrote:
To a Canadian like myself, this seems like a bizarre conversation. With our single payer system, you'd think that our taxes would be absurd, but I...
To a Canadian like myself, this seems like a bizarre conversation. With our single payer system, you'd think that our taxes would be absurd, but I don't think they're much worse than yours (it's hard to generalize as taxes vary widely depending on jurisdiction) - and our tax returns are much simpler, as there's just one tax return that covers both federal and provincial (I've seen some huge multi-jusrisdictional U.S. returns - I work for a big 4 accounting firm so we do U.S. tax but just stick to Canadian). If you have an incorporated business, our corporate tax rates are actually lower. On the other hand, waiting times can be a bitch here. I did a tax return for a client who didn't want to wait for shoulder surgery (it would have cost him nothing if he did wait - over a year) so he went to a private clinic and paid over $10,000 to get it done immediately. So our system isn't perfect either. But it's not nearly as bad as some of your politicians would have you believe (Pence's claims about our system's outcomes are demonstrably false). And imagine what would happen to wait times in the U.S.A. if all of the uninsured were added to the queues!
My quick snapshot of Canada’s Health Care... the emergency treatment is FANTASIC. Seriously, you get the best of the best, money never comes into the picture. I hate to say, but I have been there (more than once!) and was thankful for our Health Care that we do have in place :-)
Some of the elective treatment can be a bit of a wait though. That is where we can improve. There is rarely/never a scenario though, where Canadians would need to sell the house to cover medical costs. I have never heard of such a case myself? And a “moto” injury really isn’t going to matter, because the treatment will happen regardless...
I really don’t get the Obamacare debate that I hear about (and admittedly don’t understand the system in the US currently).
There sure seems to be some hard left/right views on it, that is for sure!

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