Ruts

PRM31
Profile picture for user PRM31
Posts
2140
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA US
PRM31
I've vented before that I think these excessive ruts detract from racing. My opinion only. But when guys can't makes moves across the track, and are slotcar racing for long stretches instead, I think we lose something. Since the majority of tracks prepped for nationals result in a LOT of ruts, and have for the last few years, it must be part of the plan. Can someone tell me why tracks are now prepped in a manner that they get rutted, and then left that way? Serious question.

That tool they drag behind a tractor the grinds/shaves off the top would minimize ruts if they wanted to. They run it back and forth on the start roughly 200 times. Could they spend a little time on some of the worst portions of the track?
|
Forty
Profile picture for user Forty
Posts
2807
Joined
7/27/2009
Location
Saint Paul, MN US
Forty 5/22/2017 6:00am
5/22/2017 6:00am
I love ruts in corners. Elsewhere? Not so much.
Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
20962
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
Crush 5/22/2017 6:03am
5/22/2017 6:03am
Forty wrote:
I love ruts in corners. Elsewhere? Not so much.
This.

Rutted straight aways do fuck all for racing. See Unadilla and Red Bud the last few years. Anywhere the guys are slot car racing it's just follow the leader.
doghouse
Profile picture for user doghouse
Posts
548
Joined
1/7/2017
Location
Virginia Beach, VA US
doghouse 5/22/2017 6:09am
5/22/2017 6:09am
I like having traditional rutted tracks. It's much closer to pure motoross.
PRM31
Profile picture for user PRM31
Posts
2140
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA US
PRM31 5/22/2017 6:12am
5/22/2017 6:12am
doghouse wrote:
I like having traditional rutted tracks. It's much closer to pure motoross.
Not in my recollection. Attended nationals in the 80s and I don't recall ruts, unless it was a mudder. They never tilled the tracks the way they do now.

The Shop

See All »
Jeff alessi
Profile picture for user Jeff alessi
Posts
916
Joined
10/28/2011
Location
Victorville, CA US
Jeff alessi 5/22/2017 6:18am
5/22/2017 6:18am
When a track has no ruts the racing is easy, you have to use your brain to get around and be smart and set up your passes in advance. Ruts are the number one challenge in motocross that separate first from last, it takes strength and brains to dissect your approach to a 35 minute moto. If you don't like ruts on a dirt bike track you minus well be a street bike racer. Watch how high point will be this year, racers will be using far outside lines to make passes, using the entire track. It won't be one lined.
motomike137
Profile picture for user motomike137
Posts
6898
Joined
4/22/2010
Location
Fenton, MI US
motomike137 5/22/2017 6:18am
5/22/2017 6:18am
This is my pet peeve with the Nationals the last few years for sure. The ruts get ridiculous and take away from the racing. If I recall correctly last year at Hangtown they didn't rip as deep because of weather and the track was better imho. Red Bud didn't seem quite as bad last year either. I know it has been said here a million times but not all the tracks need to be ripped and watered so deeply!
stone881
Profile picture for user stone881
Posts
866
Joined
12/26/2014
Location
Fruita, CO US
stone881 5/22/2017 6:19am
5/22/2017 6:19am
I definitely don't think that endless ruts makes the racing better. It also makes the track more dangerous and the riders don't like riding the tracks. But it has been this way for at least 10 years, if not longer. I remember hearing numerous times, while working in the industry, that a lot the riders don't enjoy the outdoors for this same reason.
Markee
Profile picture for user Markee
Posts
3544
Joined
4/15/2013
Location
Suffolk, VA US
Fantasy
1941st
Markee 5/22/2017 6:26am
5/22/2017 6:26am
Combination of 4 strokes, track prep and the ability of the riders to hit consistent lines. I guess you could change the prep, but that was to blame for our lack luster MXoN performances.

Maybe smooth out the straights?
tyler285
Profile picture for user tyler285
Posts
181
Joined
12/17/2007
Location
Hillsboro, TN US
tyler285 5/22/2017 6:26am
5/22/2017 6:26am
From my experience running race tracks, you want to rip the track as deep as possible, especially on hot sunny days so you can get as much water into the track as you can. Because if you rip it and then hit it with the drag behind it, the water will not penetrate the dirt as deep and will end up getting berms and hard packed. Then if you continue to plow throughout the day, the dirt gets dryer and dryer so it's sorta a double edged sword there. Granted all dirt is different, but that is my opinion as to why and what we did.

We used to rip the track as deep as possible then water the track down and then hit it with a finish plow. It still rutted up that way. For your pro guys and faster guys, they enjoyed it, but it was usually 50/50 on if the vet guys liked it or not haha
rhargrave431
Profile picture for user rhargrave431
Posts
830
Joined
12/7/2010
Location
Kalispell, MT US
rhargrave431 5/22/2017 6:32am
5/22/2017 6:32am
I think we need to let each track be unique. They all mix in sand, rice, and sawdust into every track. These guys don't even change their tire choice at all other than Southwick. I think it would be so neat to see different riders excel at all the different surfaces. Could you imagine if these guys had to race Carlsbad?
Silas444
Profile picture for user Silas444
Posts
569
Joined
5/23/2015
Location
Mid-state, ME US
Silas444 5/22/2017 6:35am
5/22/2017 6:35am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2017 6:37am
Jeff alessi wrote:
When a track has no ruts the racing is easy, you have to use your brain to get around and be smart and set up your...
When a track has no ruts the racing is easy, you have to use your brain to get around and be smart and set up your passes in advance. Ruts are the number one challenge in motocross that separate first from last, it takes strength and brains to dissect your approach to a 35 minute moto. If you don't like ruts on a dirt bike track you minus well be a street bike racer. Watch how high point will be this year, racers will be using far outside lines to make passes, using the entire track. It won't be one lined.
I'm not going to challenge Jeff, as I have no credibility in comparison to him. I'm just a slow old guy, whereas I watched him run away from the 450 field at Unadilla a few years back. It was an incredible ride while it lasted, but if I'm not mistaken, a rut got him and he crashed out. That's not my point, though, my point is this: the two least rutted tracks year-in and year-out are Red Bud and Southwick, and they're also where, year-in and year-out, the BEST racing occurs. Coincidence? Me thinks not. I think the ruts show who's boss, yes, but I don't think they make for great racing.
TheOriginalPancakee 5/22/2017 6:37am
5/22/2017 6:37am
Keep the ruts. Separates good from bad. I ride with some friends that shred on a track with corner ruts and when we show up to a track and it gets rutty the dude is a dead last c class squid.
Andy_Greenney 5/22/2017 6:41am
5/22/2017 6:41am
A whole track of ruts isn't great for racing the same as a completely smooth blue groove track isn't great for racing either. Somewhere in between is the sweet spot, I think the huge jumps take away from the racing more than track prep.
mx510
Profile picture for user mx510
Posts
1974
Joined
2/26/2011
Location
Gig Harbor, WA US
Fantasy
1707th
mx510 5/22/2017 6:44am
5/22/2017 6:44am
The GPs poop all over your theory.
toroP
Profile picture for user toroP
Posts
4220
Joined
4/6/2009
Location
Cincinnati, OH US
toroP 5/22/2017 6:46am
5/22/2017 6:46am
mx510 wrote:
The GPs poop all over your theory.
Yep
doghouse
Profile picture for user doghouse
Posts
548
Joined
1/7/2017
Location
Virginia Beach, VA US
doghouse 5/22/2017 6:48am
5/22/2017 6:48am
Jeff alessi wrote:
When a track has no ruts the racing is easy, you have to use your brain to get around and be smart and set up your...
When a track has no ruts the racing is easy, you have to use your brain to get around and be smart and set up your passes in advance. Ruts are the number one challenge in motocross that separate first from last, it takes strength and brains to dissect your approach to a 35 minute moto. If you don't like ruts on a dirt bike track you minus well be a street bike racer. Watch how high point will be this year, racers will be using far outside lines to make passes, using the entire track. It won't be one lined.
Silas444 wrote:
I'm not going to challenge Jeff, as I have no credibility in comparison to him. I'm just a slow old guy, whereas I watched him run...
I'm not going to challenge Jeff, as I have no credibility in comparison to him. I'm just a slow old guy, whereas I watched him run away from the 450 field at Unadilla a few years back. It was an incredible ride while it lasted, but if I'm not mistaken, a rut got him and he crashed out. That's not my point, though, my point is this: the two least rutted tracks year-in and year-out are Red Bud and Southwick, and they're also where, year-in and year-out, the BEST racing occurs. Coincidence? Me thinks not. I think the ruts show who's boss, yes, but I don't think they make for great racing.
Southwick doesn't get ruts? Huh?
Brapp
Profile picture for user Brapp
Posts
139
Joined
12/5/2012
Location
Jacksonville, FL US
Brapp 5/22/2017 6:56am
5/22/2017 6:56am
Looked to me last week like the ruts were one of the advantages ET had over Moose can
nascarnate326 5/22/2017 6:56am
5/22/2017 6:56am
It's the mentality that "motocross is ruts" where the problem lies. Look at motocross videos from the 70's and 80's. No where near what it is now.

Ruts/ mini berms in corners are fine but slot car style racing sucks and is dangerous.

Pit Row

See All »
lostboy819
Profile picture for user lostboy819
Posts
11521
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1342nd
lostboy819 5/22/2017 7:00am
5/22/2017 7:00am
Just another reason why the Nationals are dying, wont be long and there will only be a couple nationals a year, if even that.
Silas444
Profile picture for user Silas444
Posts
569
Joined
5/23/2015
Location
Mid-state, ME US
Silas444 5/22/2017 7:06am
5/22/2017 7:06am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2017 7:08am
doghouse wrote:
Southwick doesn't get ruts? Huh?
Not in a way that limits the racing, no. There are ruts everywhere, yes, but not the kind the riders can't veer out of. They criss-cross that track while racing on it all day long. They're all over the place, whereas at Unadilla sometimes it seems like they're riding on a farmers freshly plowed field. They pick a rut, they stick their front tire in it, and they go. It's almost like watching cars going through an automated car-wash. Look, the only ability I've ever really had in moto was that I was good at picking odd lines and making them work. It's why I love watching Pourcel more than ant other racer. And ruts, more often than not, curtail the ability of a racer to use that talent to it's outermost limit, as the possibility of cross-rutting only grows larger as the ruts grow deeper. This I know - for I've got the surgical scars to prove it.
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 5/22/2017 8:03am
5/22/2017 8:03am
TheOriginalPancakee wrote:
Keep the ruts. Separates good from bad. I ride with some friends that shred on a track with corner ruts and when we show up to...
Keep the ruts. Separates good from bad. I ride with some friends that shred on a track with corner ruts and when we show up to a track and it gets rutty the dude is a dead last c class squid.
OP is nt say nt get rid of ruts on the turns its the ruts on the straights is the prob
PRM31
Profile picture for user PRM31
Posts
2140
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
Northern, VA US
PRM31 5/22/2017 8:10am
5/22/2017 8:10am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2017 8:15am
I don't want to come across as whining too bad. Although I am whining! Smile I've been around racing long enough to see nationals with ruts and without. I prefer without. It's that simple. And by without, I mean the length of straights kind of ruts. Some in the corners or on occasion on straights is not a big deal. My reason for posting is to ask 'why'. It is clearly a conscious choice they have made. Yet it is completely counter to what I enjoy seeing in a track. I honestly just don't understand it. I stand by the track, or watch on TV and wonder why the tractors aren't on the track. The answer seems to be till it deep to get water into the track. We used to just put some on throughout the day. Why they leave them remains a mystery to me.
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 5/22/2017 8:15am
5/22/2017 8:15am
mx510 wrote:
The GPs poop all over your theory.
Nope . The GP prove the OP s point. go back to 08 - 12 they were ripping the crap out of the tracks and watering the crap out of it too . then they stopped doing it as much . Guess what happened the racing got way better . people saying rut s improve racing , HOW . it make a 20 ft wide straight to two tire with ruts on each straight ,if we are lucky . some time s its only one rut . people say saying it makes racing safer . that BULL , look at how many terrible crashes because of getting cross rutted . ie Jesse Nelson
brimx153
Profile picture for user brimx153
Posts
3338
Joined
5/3/2012
Location
IE
brimx153 5/22/2017 8:23am
5/22/2017 8:23am
PRM31 wrote:
I don't want to come across as whining too bad. Although I am whining! :) I've been around racing long enough to see nationals with ruts...
I don't want to come across as whining too bad. Although I am whining! Smile I've been around racing long enough to see nationals with ruts and without. I prefer without. It's that simple. And by without, I mean the length of straights kind of ruts. Some in the corners or on occasion on straights is not a big deal. My reason for posting is to ask 'why'. It is clearly a conscious choice they have made. Yet it is completely counter to what I enjoy seeing in a track. I honestly just don't understand it. I stand by the track, or watch on TV and wonder why the tractors aren't on the track. The answer seems to be till it deep to get water into the track. We used to just put some on throughout the day. Why they leave them remains a mystery to me.
i couldnt agree more with you . plus everyone say these ruts are MOTOCROSS. again thats Bull . this only started late 2000 s . go through all of Motocross history it was never like that before .Motocross is more HARDPACK tracks through history than big rutted tracks ,tilling the crap out of the track is a new thing to this sport . but anytime anyone rides hardpack tracks they are whining .
Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
20962
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
Crush 5/22/2017 8:26am
5/22/2017 8:26am
TheOriginalPancakee wrote:
Keep the ruts. Separates good from bad. I ride with some friends that shred on a track with corner ruts and when we show up to...
Keep the ruts. Separates good from bad. I ride with some friends that shred on a track with corner ruts and when we show up to a track and it gets rutty the dude is a dead last c class squid.
brimx153 wrote:
OP is nt say nt get rid of ruts on the turns its the ruts on the straights is the prob
Glad someone else read it!
Yep
Profile picture for user Yep
Posts
505
Joined
2/4/2017
Location
Port Hueneme, CA US
Yep 5/22/2017 8:51am
5/22/2017 8:51am
mx510 wrote:
The GPs poop all over your theory.
toroP wrote:
Yep
Double Yep
TXDirt
Profile picture for user TXDirt
Posts
7399
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX US
TXDirt 5/22/2017 9:02am
5/22/2017 9:02am
Tracks back in the day also were not being prepped and cared for like they are now. No one wants to ride a shit hard pack track and spectators don't want to be covered in dust all day. Add in some wind and overall it's a miserable experience for everyone.

A lot more effort is made now to keep tracks well groomed because it's fun to ride and the dust doesn't kill the fans.

I like watching these top riders battle on rough and rutted tracks. I do wish they would clean up a few spots between motos. For safety and for better racing.
peelout
Profile picture for user peelout
Posts
17873
Joined
1/6/2011
Location
Ogden, UT US
peelout 5/22/2017 9:05am
5/22/2017 9:05am
Josh Grant was beefing about track maintenance and turning it into follow-the-leader, i'd like to think he knows what is better for racing than any of us, bro.

although Eli had no problem passing... so...
Moto810
Profile picture for user Moto810
Posts
815
Joined
1/25/2015
Location
Milton, WV US
Moto810 5/22/2017 9:16am
5/22/2017 9:16am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2017 9:22am
I agree with this post. That many ruts takes away from good racing. After watching Hangtown and the MXGP in Germany it was the same. Mostly boring because none of the riders could block pass or move around on the track other than to cross rut every now and again. Some ruts are ok but all ruts are bad.

Post a reply to: Ruts