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tk2stroke tk2stroke
6/16/2018 8:36 AM
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bdownen323 bdownen323
6/16/2018 9:17 AM

He was testing some forks with no stickers last Friday and the KYB truck was parked with him. I’d say it has some merit.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 9:21 AM
bdownen323 wrote:

He was testing some forks ...more

He did switch back to KYB. Ran KYB for 2017 with HRC, swapped to Showa for SX of this year and has now gone back to KYB.

They tested during the break but it was a bit hush-hush....

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drt410 drt410
6/16/2018 9:25 AM

Yea hes always been a kyb fan.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 9:33 AM
drt410 wrote:

Yea hes always been a kyb ...more

He's been a little all over the place. WP with KTM of course but since moving to RCH he went:

Teka Suzuki 2009/10: KYB (spring)

KTM 2010-14: WP (spring)

RCH Suzuki 2015: Showa (started with air, ended with spring)

RCH Suzuki 2016: KYB (air)

HRC Honda 2017: KYB (air)

HRC Honda 2018: Started with Showa spring and is now on KYB spring.

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Kawi15 Kawi15
6/16/2018 9:37 AM

Going to KYB, is he on Air, or Spring?

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Thisusernameisavailable Thisusernameisavailable
6/16/2018 9:41 AM

Am I correct in thinking there was a bit of blame on the suspension for the big '17 A3 crash?
When he returned he was on Showa and what appeared to be far stiffer than he previously ran?

The above may be fact or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting. I am not sure, you have no chance.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 9:41 AM
Kawi15 wrote:

Going to KYB, is he on ...more

Spring this time, all his prior stints in the 450 class on KYB have been air.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 9:44 AM
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Am I correct in thinking ...more

Stiffer settings were pushed on him by the team as Ken notoriously runs extremely soft settings and Ken himself will admit that/he's been trying to get used to stiffer stuff. In that case, it wasn't KYB's fault like making him run soft settings or anything. Honestly, the behind the scenes of how the comparison tests went for KYB vs Showa this off-season were weird and the fact that Ken runs a Showa logo on his jersey/Honda releases a special edition bike with coated Showa suspension and logos makes me think there was something a little extra behind pushing Ken to get on Showa. Just to have him and Craig switch from Showa over to KYB.

Craig ran Showa on Geico and his SX stint on Seely's bike, before selecting KYB for outdoors. Cole Seely ran KYB last year and this year.

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Thisusernameisavailable Thisusernameisavailable
6/16/2018 9:52 AM
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Am I correct in thinking ...more

ML512 wrote:

Stiffer settings were ...more

Super interesting. Thankyou.

The above may be fact or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting. I am not sure, you have no chance.

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Jmicmoto13 Jmicmoto13
6/16/2018 2:18 PM
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Am I correct in thinking ...more

ML512 wrote:

Stiffer settings were ...more

Thisusernameisavailable wrote:

Super interesting. ...more

X2 awesome insight.

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Johnny Depp Johnny Depp
6/16/2018 2:23 PM

So politics over performance, ya don't say. Time for a decal swap or as stated, no decals.

We remember his father's epic meltdown over this subject at RCH that sent him back to Germany for good.

So KR likes a softer feel, that sounds good to me, and you don't end up with a front end pushing in the corners.

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

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Solidkm Solidkm
6/16/2018 3:23 PM

I enjoyed reading that German article from his dad. We don’t often get that kind of inside scoop.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 3:27 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

So politics over ...more

Well in the case of his crashes, two can be attributed to running too soft of a setting and having the suspension totally bottom, then redirecting that leftover energy into what led to the crash.

As I mentioned above, having personally asked Ken this in an interview that’s somewhere around this site...he said that he was actively trying to go stiffer to negate that happening again.

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Johnny Depp Johnny Depp
6/16/2018 3:29 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

So politics over ...more

ML512 wrote:

Well in the case of his ...more

Or a shock casing onto the jump face. Call me crazy, funny it got redesigned..

Now Gasjer is getting his mojo back.

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 3:31 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

So politics over ...more

ML512 wrote:

Well in the case of his ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Or a shock casing onto the ...more

Oh back to this again, it doesn’t contact the ground and didn’t in either Roczen or Gajser’s incidents. Beyond that, the length of the shock hasn’t been changed, it’s the same angle and length as it was in 17.

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Johnny Depp Johnny Depp
6/16/2018 4:53 PM

Well good luck to their riders if they didn't change it or add a glide plate. I read about a new frame, swingarm and linkage and assumed they had moved it. I've been waiting for a technical briefing that spells out the changes and shows the old and new overlayed like they did before.

So we are to believe all of the Honda rider's had the same problem with a rebound kick, even though they all run different settings and even Showa and KYB's? Watch the videos for yourself, it always happens when they land the bike nose up and it cases rather than lands on the tires. All endo's over the front. In Gasjer's case you can clearly see the dirt flying forward and passing the bike underneath from the shock digging in. Of course the riders think they experience a rebound kick. Then there's the des nations mud packing. The coincidences are overwhelming.

2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

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hamncheeze hamncheeze
6/16/2018 4:59 PM

These guys swap suspension more than the 90s motocrossers swapped women laughing

Old MXer turned Superfan.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 7:37 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

Well good luck to their ...more

Both of Roczen’s incidents have the shock blowing through the stroke on a Jump face from too soft of settings, not from landing front end high and dragging the bottom of the bike and the spring cup on the shocks aren’t low enough to meet material in the way you’re describing (the MXdN incident you’re referring to). Because I’m so sick of this argument I went out and measured the distance between the bottom of the frame and the lowest point of the linkage system on a new KTM and Honda in my shop.

The KTM linkage is exposed by 3mm more than the Honda, so shouldn’t KTM riders be thrown off? Secondly, the linkages dissapear behind the cradle of the frame once the suspension has gone through about the first two to three inches of travel. So in the case of Roczen’s incident, the linkage is completely concealed behind the frame and wouldn’t have been able to contact the ground.

Then you’re trying to claim the redesigned this for a safety aspect when you don’t even know the numbers or what actually changed. C’mon man, use some sense and get off your crazy agenda.

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slipdog slipdog
6/16/2018 7:52 PM
Photo
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kiwifan kiwifan
6/16/2018 8:41 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

Well good luck to their ...more

ML512 wrote:

Both of Roczen’s incidents ...more

Finally, the end of that stupid argument, thanks ML !!!

Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

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motokawi818 motokawi818
6/16/2018 8:41 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

Well good luck to their ...more

ML512 wrote:

Both of Roczen’s incidents ...more

Mic drop

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Johnny Depp Johnny Depp
6/16/2018 8:59 PM

Perhaps it is the angle of the Honda shock, maybe the frame rail? Remember the early frame failures where the dog bones pulled away from the frame, another clue to this issue. Something is causing these similar crashes, and it's hard to imagine that all of them have insufficient rebound dampening in the shock when they "bottom their A-kits".

https://m.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Is-Factory-Honda-suffering-from-the-Curse-of-the-Bambino-GOAT,1288736?page=1

http://www.motoxaddicts.com/2018/03/10/rj-hampshire-crash-2018-daytona-sx/

Watch the jump face on Cole's crash. 1st ET3 lands the same and rides through no problem. The jump peak is clean before Cole hits it, and clearly has a dug out mark after Cole's crash, where he lands front 1st and the rear is full extended as the bike frames on the peak.



In KR94's A2 crash the shock does not appear to be fully extended, but something appears to hang in the deep ruts.
Taken by itself, this incident does not appear suspicious.

In Ken's Vegas crash, he is clearly going over the bars before the shock even begins to unload at :46.


Gasjer's crash is the most compelling even though the bike is cut out of the frame at impact. It is visible at :18 that again he is going over the bars before the shock has rebounded. He is slammed into the bars from a loss of forward motion, not the seat kicking back. There are several different frames at :18 that show this, and the dirt under the bike blasting forward and then falling out of the shock area are evidence of the obstruction.


I am unable to embed or do frame captures, maybe someone else can?



2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

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H4L H4L
6/16/2018 9:12 PM
slipdog wrote:
grin Was thinking of how people put on tin foil hats with their theories. That pic is over the top..

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

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H4L H4L
6/16/2018 9:15 PM
kiwifan wrote:

Finally, the end of that ...more

I don't think the argument will ever be over. People will believe what they want even after the facts are given..

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

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ML512 ML512
6/16/2018 9:21 PM

Cole’s is super easy to understand, he came up very short, front tire first so the front suspension pushed through the stroke and the momentum from the bike stops. As the front tire goes over the top, it’s now diving while the rear end still has momentum and the rear tire noteably. It contacts the top of the landing and Cole’s weight is over the front as he’s going over the bars. The rear tire with little weight and momentum bounces off the top of the jump and carries over the front end.

Ken Roczen’s Vegas crash starts when he comes p long on the first part of the rhythm, blows through the stroke of the suspension and doesn’t get proper lift, causing him to come up short on the second part of the rhythm...as he touches down after the small rebound of coming up short on the rhythm, he’s now landed into the transition with his weight way too far forward but with enough Force that the shock has gone through the compression stroke completely, releasing that energy on take off as his weight is too far forward and with no way to contain/react to the energy the bike is about to release. Check this photo of his position and how far the travel is, there’s a ton of energy about to be released.
Photo

As for Ken’s A2 crash, I already broke it down to a T in another topic for you. Similar to Vegas, it’s a combination of getting too deep into a rhythm, energy release and his weight/position being too far forward to react and contain the energy as it’s released.

The other thing I’m relaxing is your concept and grasp of suspension is somewhat flawed. You keep referring to the rebound damping, this is an issue of compression damping. It’s so soft that the energy places it through the stroke too quickly and then the energy is released as such. If you had rebound damping strong enough to contain this, the suspension would retract so slowly the bike would feel dead everywhere. It would pack and the energy would still be dispersed somewhere throughout the bike.

Lastly, in the Ken situations...the shocks are deep enough in the stroke that the linkages are hidden behind the cradles of the frame.

As for the RJ hanpshire crash, you’re reaching at something that can’t even be properly seen to diagnose. I was standing in this section and the ruts were deep enough there’s a few things that coulda happened but I saw the crash after it had already started. At this point either of us would be reaching to lay claim to the exact cause.

However, I’ll give you my thought based on seeing guys hit that section all night and seeing a few almost crash. They were wheel tapping then setting the front tire down into the last small roller before the wall to preload the bike over it. The transition between them is so tight a small miss-calculation can get the front end in at the wrong time so it hits the face late and doesn’t properly pop while the rear lands deeper, loads too much and cause the bike to kick a little. In this case it was a small kick and the front end dipped but ultimately the bike didn’t have enough pop to clear the wall with the front tire, clips it and sends him over the bars.

Looking at all the three Honda test bikes we have right now, none have marks on the linkage knuckle from ground contact.

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motokawi818 motokawi818
6/16/2018 9:31 PM
Johnny Depp wrote:

Perhaps it is the angle of ...more

Jet fuel can’t melt steel berms

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drt410 drt410
6/16/2018 9:59 PM

Ml just broke it down 15 times and literally went out of his way to go measure... for some guy on the forum lol, and proved your wrong. Bravo ml, let it go.

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kiwifan kiwifan
6/16/2018 10:24 PM
ML512 wrote:

Both of Roczen’s incidents ...more

kiwifan wrote:

Finally, the end of that ...more

H4L wrote:

I don't think the argument ...more

yeah true....!!!!

Current rides: 2020 CRF450RWE and 2019 TC300
Occasional ride for VMX: 1985 CR500RF
Adventure/Road bike: CRF1000L

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Johnny Depp Johnny Depp
6/17/2018 8:29 AM

ML512 thanks for the time and thought you have put into this, I'm guessing your curiosity was aroused?. We'll have to agree to disagree. I could keep on with more, and several of my points were not addressed, but I don't have a dog in this hunt. Delete or dungeon if you want.

And building 7 never got hit by a plane.

It sure would be cool to see the new '19 Beta release on the home page. Tuesday is the day.



2015 Beta 500 RS, history: 99 KTM 300, 87 CR250, 84 KLR 600, 82 GPZ 550, 81 KX 250, 80 KX 250, 79 Montesa 414 VE, 78 250 VB, 77 360 VB, 76 360 VA, 75 YZ 125, 74 TM 125, 72 TS 125, 60's West Bend Go Boy Kart

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